Imperial Racism, EU Brain bug?

[Darth Fanboy]

Inspired by this thread: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=89394

The topic, spawned off of a discussion as to which Trek race would make for the best collaborators with an Imperial Occupation, is growing marginally OT over there and I am interested to hear what others have to say while keeping it PSW.

Do you believe that the films depict an Empire that primarily serves humans? Do you believe that was Lucas' intent? Or do you believe that the anti-alien sentiment in the Imperial forces was a creation of the authors of the Extended Universe?

My opinion would be that Imperial racism is an EU brain bug, as a way of making the Empire an uglier foe for the Rebels that must be absolutely destroyed and character shields be damned. Also, while Timothy Zahn has his "massive fleet of dreadnaughts" and Karen Traviss has her retconned military sizes, the authors of the EU also believe that the Empire must absolutely be dominated by humans. Which makes little sense given a galaxy of hundreds of sentient species, unless humans breed that quickly and colonized that effectively compared to other SW Races. I guess what i'm trying to say is that I don't see how can one species dominate an entity as large as the GE when they can't hold a significant portion of the GE's population.

If there's something i've missed or overlooked, please inform me as always.

[Stark]

The crews of Imperial starships are entirely human, from memory. However, that's like saying the Republic was racist, because their whole GAR was human clones. Most Imperial crew had the same accent too: are they all from one planet?

The ESB bounty hunters were largely non-human, and treated with disdain ('we don't need their scum'), but I always figured this was Fleet elitism rather than 'zomg teh alien!' racism.

[Ford Prefect]

There is the prison guard in ANH who refers to Chewie as a 'thing', but that could just be his personal opinion, as opposed to a common belief held by the Galactic Empire. Mind you, looking at the movies I can't really remember that many aliens in the Rebel Alliance (excluding of course RotJ) either.

[Cao Cao]

You simply have to look at the Rebellion in the movies and count all the aliens there.
We get Chewbacca (not recruited as a Rebel soldier), Nien Nubb and the Mon Calamari.

Thing is the latter two aren't seen until the third movie, and even then the Mon Calamari are segregated on their own ships that they built!
One could make the (wrong, brain buggish) determination that the Rebel Alliance is xenophobic and, worse, uses aliens for it's own convenience.

EDIT: I believe Lucas' original intent was to show a sterile, orderly Imperial crews. Faceless flunkies who all look the same because they work for The Bad Guys and you're not supposed to get attached to them.
The Rebel Alliance is only marginally more diverse (after ANH) because you're not supposed to pay much attention to the background guys in this good vs. evil story either. Well. That and it was just easier to get any British extra that was waiting for work.
Ackbar's people are radically different, I believe, to show the Rebellion is bringing in the big guns it didn't have before; the MonCal cruisers, etc.

[Noble Ire]

I think it probably is a brain bug, although an understandable one, both from an in and out universe perspective. The OT does give the impression, both through that prison guard, and the crews of the fleet that the Empire does contain a lot of xenophobes, although the EU might have exaggerated it beyond the scope the movies perhaps wanted to convey. However, in-universe, xenophobia, like modern racism, seems to be an enduring part of the human (or at least in some humans) mindset. Even though Palpatine wasn't one himself, he did allow numerous individuals of that stance, even those who were bigots to a genocidal extreme, to rise through the ranks of the Empire, thus giving the impression that the whole organization was that way (no doubt pushed more to the forefront by rebel propogandists).

Which makes little sense given a galaxy of hundreds of sentient species, unless humans breed that quickly and colonized that effectively compared to other SW Races. I guess what i'm trying to say is that I don't see how can one species dominate an entity as large as the GE when they can't hold a significant portion of the GE's population.

Of course, humans did begin colonizing the galaxy well before most other contemporary species, through generation ships, early hyperdrive, and colonies dropped by the occasional ancient and long disappeared race. They also do seem a good deal more prolific and expansion-oriented than other SW species (the Duros and Twi'lek being the only real contenders I can think of).

And where are you getting the impression that humans supposedly make up a vast majority of the Imperial population? Certainly, they are a significant part of it, but I don't recall any source stating that they were that dominate numerically (despite onscreen appearences, which only focus on a few areas and individuals.)

Thing is the latter two aren't seen until the third movie, and even then the Mon Calamari are segregated on their own ships that they built!

What?

[Stark]

So we've got a single quote, by a guy who's probably an MP and thus an asshole. Great basis there!

I mean, even the rebel commandoes were mostly/entirely human, the Hoth troopers were mostly/entirely human, etc etc. The human race appears to be dominant in the SW galaxy - this just makes Imperial hiring practices more understandable... if the Imperials do indeed only hire humans, which is debatable.

[Cao Cao]

Thing is the latter two aren't seen until the third movie, and even then the Mon Calamari are segregated on their own ships that they built!

What?

As in, can we point to the Mon Cals as proof of Rebellion diversity and Imperial xenophobia?
Or are the Mon Cals merely being used for the ships they built which are valuable to the Rebellion and kept only crewing those ships, far away from xenophobic Rebel humans? Coming from an EU brain bug mentality, of course.

[Noble Ire]

As in, can we point to the Mon Cals as proof of Rebellion diversity and Imperial xenophobia?
Or are the Mon Cals merely being used for the ships they built which are valuable to the Rebellion and kept only crewing those ships, far away from xenophobic Rebel humans? Coming from an EU brain bug mentality, of course.

Where do you get the idea that Mon Calamari were restricted to their own ships only (which, actually, could be justifiable, if it were the case, considering the layout of their vessels are specifically suited for their visual and physical needs)? We only see the interior of a single non-Mon Cal ship for a few moments, a single med chamber, no less. I don't see where your getting the idea that they were kept away.

[Lord Revan]

As in, can we point to the Mon Cals as proof of Rebellion diversity and Imperial xenophobia?
Or are the Mon Cals merely being used for the ships they built which are valuable to the Rebellion and kept only crewing those ships, far away from xenophobic Rebel humans? Coming from an EU brain bug mentality, of course.

Where do you get the idea that Mon Calamari were restricted to their own ships only (which, actually, could be justifiable, if it were the case, considering the layout of their vessels are specifically suited for their visual and physical needs)? We only see the interior of a single non-Mon Cal ship for a few moments, a single med chamber, no less. I don't see where your gettign the idea that they were kept away.

simple no Mon calmaries where shown anywhere but MonCal ships (the fact the that see little to nothing of interiors of non Mon Cal ships is irrelevant).

[Cao Cao]

As in, can we point to the Mon Cals as proof of Rebellion diversity and Imperial xenophobia?
Or are the Mon Cals merely being used for the ships they built which are valuable to the Rebellion and kept only crewing those ships, far away from xenophobic Rebel humans? Coming from an EU brain bug mentality, of course.

Where do you get the idea that Mon Calamari were restricted to their own ships only (which, actually, could be justifiable, if it were the case, considering the layout of their vessels are specifically suited for their visual and physical needs)? We only see the interior of a single non-Mon Cal ship for a few moments, a single med chamber, no less. I don't see where your getting the idea that they were kept away.

I'm making a leap of logic, much like the EU writers did when they wrote about Imperial xenophobia -- that's my point.

[Noble Ire]

I'm making a leap of logic, much like the EU writers did when they wrote about Imperial xenophobia -- that's my point.

Oh, I suppose I missed that.

Still, I think it was rather unlikely that they would make that leap; the conference scene in ROTJ kind of makes it a untenable assumption. Still, it would have been an interesting, if unlikely, direction for the EU to take...

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well i said this before, so just my thought but i think, yes the Empire is racist.

Look through the OT, i defy you to find one non human Imperial officer, one woman, one minority.

Compare this to the Alliance, where you see women, men, aliens, etc all together and with aliens and women and minorities even in places of power.

This cant be a coincidence. If humans were merely 'dominant' why so many aliens in the Rebel alliance? Why no WOMEN if its only humans being dominant? The EU has some few examples, but then even its a crapshoot.

Its logical to me that Palpatine is just a racist and likes people who are: male, human, caucasian when he posts them in positions of authority.

Its interesting he chooses a minority for the template of his Clone Warriors who are effectively throw away lives that he could expend as he saw fit, and add to this his enslavement of the Wookies and attempts to call them 'nonsentient' when this is blatantly false even at a cursory glance...

So yes i think, it seems to me, we can add racist asshole to Palpatine's list of personality flaws along with: murderer, war profiteer, sociopath and warmonger.

[Cao Cao]

I'm making a leap of logic, much like the EU writers did when they wrote about Imperial xenophobia -- that's my point.

Oh, I suppose I missed that.

Still, I think it was rather unlikely that they would make that leap; the conference scene in ROTJ kind of makes it a untenable assumption. Still, it would have been an interesting, if unlikely, direction for the EU to take...

Not as such, because there's still the fact that the Rebellion NEEDS the MonCal cruisers or their fleet is reduced to a medical frigate, a few corvettes and a bunch of transports.
An EU writer with a mandate to paint the Rebellion as bigotted and evil could very easily have cynical Rebel leaders using the Mon Cals for their own convenience then tossing them aside.

[Noble Ire]

Not as such, because there's still the fact that the Rebellion NEEDS the MonCal cruisers or their fleet is reduced to a medical frigate, a few corvettes and a bunch of transports.
An EU writer with a mandate to paint the Rebellion as bigotted and evil could very easily have cynical Rebel leaders using the Mon Cals for their own convenience then tossing them aside.

Of course, there is the matter of the Bothans, and the Dressilians, and the Sullustans, and the Isha Tib who also took part in the meeting and subsequent operation, and were visible in the planning room (at least the latter three).

[consequences]

Mon Calamari ships tend to be configured with displays that humans can't perceive well enough to use effectively. So its not so much the Mon Calamari being segregated to their own ships, but everyone else being segregated away from them.

Of course, if you want the ultimate in NR racism and bigotry, you have to look at Solo Command. Less than a half dozen Twileks go inexplicably berserk, so the NR's response is naturally to remove every single one of them from active duty. Even the Empire didn't pull shit like that with the Sullustans in their armed forces, when their race provided the Alliance with basing facilities and support.

[Cao Cao]

Well i said this before, so just my thought but i think, yes the Empire is racist.

Look through the OT, i defy you to find one non human Imperial officer, one woman, one minority.

Compare this to the Alliance, where you see women, men, aliens, etc all together and with aliens and women and minorities even in places of power.

This cant be a coincidence. If humans were merely 'dominant' why so many aliens in the Rebel alliance? Why no WOMEN if its only humans being dominant? The EU has some few examples, but then even its a crapshoot.

How many Rebel aliens do we see working together with Rebel humans in ANH and ESB? 0 How many in RotJ? 1 (for the purposes of being recruited as a Rebel AND seen working together with humans, only Nien Nubb fits the bill). How many female Rebel fighter pilots and/or soldiers do we see in the whole trilogy? 0

Its logical to me that Palpatine is just a racist and likes people who are: male, human, caucasian when he posts them in positions of authority.

Aliens numbered among his chief co-conspirators and confidants in the PT.
Also, according to the Original Trilogy Inside the Worlds, one of Emperor Palpatine's closest friends and supporters is none other than one Moff Panaka. Who is no doubt intended to be the same person as Captain Panaka from Episode I - who is black.

Its interesting he chooses a minority for the template of his Clone Warriors who are effectively throw away lives that he could expend as he saw fit, and add to this his enslavement of the Wookies and attempts to call them 'nonsentient' when this is blatantly false even at a cursory glance...

So yes i think, it seems to me, we can add racist asshole to Palpatine's list of personality flaws along with: murderer, war profiteer, sociopath and warmonger.

It's also interesting then that among the first Rebel fighter pilots to be thrown into the meat grinder and die in RotJ was a black man and an asian man.

[Cao Cao]

Not as such, because there's still the fact that the Rebellion NEEDS the MonCal cruisers or their fleet is reduced to a medical frigate, a few corvettes and a bunch of transports.
An EU writer with a mandate to paint the Rebellion as bigotted and evil could very easily have cynical Rebel leaders using the Mon Cals for their own convenience then tossing them aside.

Of course, there is the matter of the Bothans, and the Dressilians, and the Sullustans, and the Isha Tib who also took part in the meeting and subsequent operation, and were visible in the planning room (at least the latter three).

Sullustians are explainable; the Rebel fleet's staging point was... Sullust.
I don't recall seeing the others though.

[Stark]

18, I think it's amusing you rate regular, human racism up with xeno-racism. And sexism? LOL!

If you want to ignore the human guards on T-IV, the human troops on Hoth, the human Commandoes on Endor, then go ahead. They've got un-uniformed aliens (like melted-head guy with Lando), they've got aliens they're using for their fleet - who answer to a human rebel leader, no less - and you think the EMPIRE is racist? How many non-human rebel fighter pilots are there? The entire OT is human-centric, that's unavoidable - but to extend this, one-way, to the Empire as a whole is retarded.

Frankly, if humans are dominant, then they'll be used more. Guns, starfighters, etc are designed for humans or human-ish aliens. The Imperial officer class appears to be primarily human - just like the rebel leadership. Stormies are clones, or people using clone equipment (ie humans). Both Empire and rebels use aliens when necessary.

[Noble Ire]

I don't recall seeing the others though.

IIRC, you can see the Ishi Tib in the wide, establishing shot of the room, near the center. He's the tall, green reptile-like one with the beak-face.

The Dressilian (there may be more than one), can be seen in a few shots on one of the higher rows of seats, in a long cloak and hood, with his highly-pruned and clearly non-human face visible. In fact, one accompanies the landing party, even if you can't see his face (the black-cloaked figure you see going into the Tydirium at the beginning of Han's goodbye speech to Lando).

[18-Till-I-Die]

Well if you really want to argue the Rebels are racist too, point out that everyone BUT Chewie gets a medal at the end of A New Hope.

And they make him stand off to the side like a pet or something too.

I know Chewie was like, "Oh, so thats how you're gonna' play me, Han? Ok i'll remember that."

[GrandAdmiral]

I think there was some contempt of aliens from the movies and some from EU. But I don't think it was racism. There was an ebook (I forgot the name) about General Veers where he gave the reason. He said something about the other species being too diverse and then gave an example. He said 'would a Trandoshan ensign take an order that he didn't like from a Wookie captain? Would a Gammorrean captain allow someone to surrender? Would he know when the odds were stacked against him and pull out? Would an Ishori take orders from a Diamalan? I don't think so!' So, it may not have actually been racism but caution.

[Cao Cao]

Well if you really want to argue the Rebels are racist too, point out that everyone BUT Chewie gets a medal at the end of A New Hope.

And they make him stand off to the side like a pet or something too.

I know Chewie was like, "Oh, so thats how you're gonna' play me, Han? Ok i'll remember that."

Darnit I was saving that as my ace-in-the-hole.

[Darth Yoshi]

*grasping at straws* Maybe they didn't want to pin a medal on someone without a shirt.

[Noble Ire]

I think there was some contempt of aliens from the movies and some from EU. But I don't think it was racism. There was an ebook (I forgot the name) about General Veers where he gave the reason. He said something about the other species being too diverse and then gave an example. He said 'would a Trandoshan ensign take an order that he didn't like from a Wookie captain? Would a Gammorrean captain allow someone to surrender? Would he know when the odds were stacked against him and pull out? Would an Ishori take orders from a Diamalan? I don't think so!' So, it may not have actually been racism but caution.

Though some of the those specific points are actually valid, that statement essentially embodies a main aspect of Social Darwinism; ie, that other races (or in this case, species) are incapable of functioning as well as a caucasian (or human) can. Though there may be some instances where that is the case (of course, there are many human groups can't always work together things effeciently as well), using it as a blanket excuse is completely unacceptable.

*grasping at straws* Maybe they didn't want to pin a medal on someone without a shirt.

They were on neck bands, not pins.

[Plushie]

Actually, I think the Rebellion thing was explained (at least partially) in the EU, don't remember where exactly, though. It's based around the fact that the Rebellion wasn't just a bunch of random people joining together to oppose the Empire, but specific groups and organizations. It just happens that, in the early years of the Rebellion, these organizations were primarily human ones, by way of addition as opposed to exclusion. Alderaan was a human colony world, Chandrila was likewise, etc etc.

Then the Mon Cals came on board. Then the Sullustans.

The only source of aliens prior to these major alien organizations joining was individuals whereas entire planets of humans were providing resources for the Rebel Alliance.