The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

[Mange]

However, it would've been interesting to see whether or not Chee agrees to the concept that the Clone Wars was a "small scale" conflict with a.o. things a completely uninterested population.

Exactly what is Traviss' exact quote for the above; the CW being a "small scale" conflict? Because we can nip this in the bud immediately. This is the prologue to "Shatterpoint" written by George Lucas:

Prologue

*snip*

About two years ago, I asked Chee about Lucas' prologue and wheter it would be considered "C" or "G" canon. His answer:

G. Since we started the Holocron, there is no such thing as Lucas-written C-level material.

So tell Traviss to go fuck herself with her retcon.

Great Lord Poe! This'll be useful.

[VT-16]

Considering the Clone Wars novels kinda hint at nothing more than conflicts on "hundreds" of worlds, she probably can get away with her interpretation of the facts.

All of this is going to be at a moot point next year or so, when GL showcases the new 3D animated CW series. The man himself said it's gonna be mostly "big battles with all the main characters from the movies".

EDIT: ok, I can't find that exact quote, but this quote from a Steve Sansweet interview pretty much settles it:

The first is Star Wars animation, which is CG 3-dimensional animation, like a Toy Story, that takes place during the period of the Clone Wars that takes place between Episodes 2 and 3. And that we're setting for Fall of 2007. Preproduction is underway, we're doing animation test, people are working on initial scripts. So we're well under way on that. And George is very much taking hand and is very much part of the whole process. I know some people thought maybe he would just hey "hey, go do it," but George is Star Wars and he's always gonna be very closely involved in this.

"brushfires", my ass. 8)

[Lost Soal]

Just taking a look at the last page of that thread and they've got some..... interesting ideas.
From the looks of things they seem to believe that that the Kaminoans created a composite clone of Arnold Schwarzenegger, Jean Claude Van Damm and Jackie Chan, because I don't see any other way they could expect a team of FOUR clones to sieze an entire planet. And not just once either. FIVE HUNDRED of the bloody things.

I may just be living in my own little world here, but when did inbreading become so rampent that this many demented individuals can gather in one place, and compete in trials of stupidity?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Little help: Where is the discussion going on, and how may i get into this i would like to see this debacle for myself.

[Lost Soal]

This is the last page from TFN. (Pg 32)

[VT-16]

On this page are some links to talk-pages for the Muunilinst and GAR debacle:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Special: ... ions/VT-16

A little more subdued than TFN, I'd reckon.

[Surlethe]

What the hell kind of "brushfire conflict" involves sieges? In terms of World War II, the Germans sent to the siege of Stalingrad some 330,000 men -- a tenth of Ms Traviss' "Grand" Army of the Republic. If we take the numbers from World War II as accurate as to the number of men a single siege requires, conservatively scaling up (assuming a linear relationship between area encircled and number of troops required) from a city to an area only 12,000 km in diameter (the earth is 40,000 km in diameter) gives something like 330,000,000 clones. That's conservative, again, and remember there are multiple sieges going on.

[NecronLord]

She would say that 'seiges' equals starships bombarding shields.

[VT-16]

Which is bullshit, 'cus Obi-Wan and Anakin spent at least one month on an unnamed mud planet, waiting for their artillery to break through a city's shield, which was estimated to take three adittional months to do, with their artillery bombarding it constantly.

[Mange]

Which is bullshit, 'cus Obi-Wan and Anakin spent at least one month on an unnamed mud planet, waiting for their artillery to break through a city's shield, which was estimated to take three adittional months to do, with their artillery bombarding it constantly.

Yeah, and that was "right on schedule". A very "mobile" war indeed... Wasn't it also the same episode that showed the CIS invasion force on Kashyyyk?

[VT-16]

Yep, as well as the Separatist invasion of Orto, the Battle of Bal'demnic, some random planets get subjugated by droids etc.

The Bal'demnic article also added:

Halagad Ventor left part of his task force behind in Bal'demnic's orbit, establishing a planetary defense blockade to prevent any more Confederacy activity.

"Island-hopping", my ass.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Which is bullshit, 'cus Obi-Wan and Anakin spent at least one month on an unnamed mud planet, waiting for their artillery to break through a city's shield, which was estimated to take three adittional months to do, with their artillery bombarding it constantly.

That was in the Clone Wars toons, BTW.

I said it once and i'll say it again, anyone can call CW wank if they want...that has no bearing on the fact it does a better job of portraying the epic scale of SW than most EU novels have.

I think people just dont like it cause it was a cartoon. People hear cartoon and suddenly, "BULL!" without even looking at it, i think.

[VT-16]

Hell, even I did that with the old Droids cartoon (when I got older).

Now that I've worked on some articles related to it and seen all the references in the Prequels, I almost feel like having a look-see.

[Fire Fly]

What the hell kind of "brushfire conflict" involves sieges? In terms of World War II, the Germans sent to the siege of Stalingrad some 330,000 men -- a tenth of Ms Traviss' "Grand" Army of the Republic. If we take the numbers from World War II as accurate as to the number of men a single siege requires, conservatively scaling up (assuming a linear relationship between area encircled and number of troops required) from a city to an area only 12,000 km in diameter (the earth is 40,000 km in diameter) gives something like 330,000,000 clones. That's conservative, again, and remember there are multiple sieges going on.

I think that is partially the problem. The minimalists assumes that those who support realistic numbers support a direct relationship between Earth battles and Star Wars battles involving troop strength. I would agree that the nature of warfare in Star Wars has regulated an individual trooper with enormous firepower and the speed of hyperdrive has made warfare far more mobile and fluid. I would also agree that, on the surface, it would seem a bit ludicrous to assume that a planetary seige requires 330 million clones because all sources have not shown such levels before. Why is so much manpower necessary when one single starship can easily wipe out all of those clones?

The main issue that I see reoccuring time and time again from the minimalists is that no Star Wars source supports such large numbers and that one cannot make a direct analogy between Star Wars and Earth battles due to the different dynamics of warfare.

While these assumptions are reasonable, one has to take into consideration, also, that there is not a great disparity in the technological levels between the Republic and Separatists. If both sides utilize comparable numbers and comparable technology, it becomes a war of attrition. In such a case, numbers become more important.

[NecronLord]

That was in the Clone Wars toons, BTW.

I said it once and i'll say it again, anyone can call CW wank if they want...that has no bearing on the fact it does a better job of portraying the epic scale of SW than most EU novels have.

I think people just dont like it cause it was a cartoon. People hear cartoon and suddenly, "BULL!" without even looking at it, i think.

Or alternately, "cartoon that's directly contradicted by LoE"

[18-Till-I-Die]

They're both C-level canon, though, so thats not so bad.

And besides, its still better than most of the EU i've read.

[VT-16]

Technically, both of them contain bits and pieces of G-canon, since GL had some say in...

[SCRawl]

Technically, both of them contain bits and pieces of G-canon, since GL had some say in...

Unfortunately, we don't know for sure which bits and pieces those are. I wish that there were some foolproof "canon filter" that would sort everything into the various levels. The one we have right now is too highly populated by fools to be foolproof.

[Lost Soal]

Theres another flaw in their thinking that I'm looking at.

Cherry picking your way through this di ... nterparts?

Is there some reason, besides desperation, for them to believe that capturing the capital is suddenly going to give them control of an entire planet. Its as if they assume that fighting will only occur in the capital, because its not like anything of importance is ever located away from it.

[Jim Raynor]

Is there some reason, besides desperation, for them to believe that capturing the capital is suddenly going to give them control of an entire planet. Its as if they assume that fighting will only occur in the capital, because its not like anything of importance is ever located away from it.

No reason except they're fucking morons who fall prey to stupid brain bugs. They see the Battle of Naboo, with most of the action occuring near Theed. While the Trade Federation was defeated by the actions of a small force in the capital, this was a freak incident because of the droid army's reliance on a Droid Control Ship, a flaw that would be removed later. Then the morons see the Battle of Muunilinst, which focused on the capital, because that's where the most important events happened (duh). Nowhere in the cartoon did they say that the capital city was the only place where combat occured, but these people are too stupid to understand this.

[Darth Wong]

Karen Traviss is what Donald Rumsfeld would be if he took up an interest in sci-fi writing. You can always make things work on paper if you just ignore factors that aren't convenient for your scenario.

[Connor MacLeod]

I']ve said it before and I say it agin, stupid as it is, I can't really get worked up about this lady wanking out an already absurd concept to begin with, no matter how many clones you give them.

(OF course, ,its more about her reactions to critisicm than the evidence itself, but I'd be happy to let her play out her clone wanking just to keep her from screwing up other parts SW. Assuming that were possible.)

[Archon]

The Art of War should be mandatory reading for those fools.

They have no grasp on strategy or logistics at all.

[Jim Raynor]

The Art of War might be out of their reading level. These fucktards need to learn how to walk before they try to run. First they need to snap out of the psychotic delusion that a 3 million man army in a galaxy of tens of millions of inhabited planets even comes CLOSE to making sense.

[VT-16]

Then the morons see the Battle of Muunilinst, which focused on the capital, because that's where the most important events happened (duh)

Funny how they fail to notice the various swarms of LAATs heading down to the planet in different directions. :roll:

Taking the capital is fine and dandy, but if Iraq taught us anything, you need actual presence elsewhere as well, otherwise you'll just be having fun with insurgents for years to come. (Incidently, this is exactly what one Imperial commander mentions to Vader during the Battle of Kashyyyk in Dark Lord. Many wookies escaped into the jungles, and they were looking at years or decades of guerilla warfare with them.)