The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-15 10:49am

DM definitely believes in what he's saying. it's like watching someone find out a big secret and acting all hyper about it, but in the process forgetting about other parts of the story.

Sigh. I'm still holding up, though.

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2006-04-15 10:57am

Do you people honestly think you will convince Traviss about anything? I'mean seriously she must be intelligent enough to realize 3 million is not big enough after so many people pointed it out to her. I even had a [very] brief discussion with her on Galactic Senate regarding the number and her only response was that she won't discuss it.
This is not a matter of reason and intelligence but matter of pride and there is no way in hell an author and a "VIP" will admitt error to a "mere fan".

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-04-15 11:04am

I think a part of her must realize that she is wrong but during her self-denial period after finding out she was wrong several months back, she has managed to convince herself that she was actually right and that her dissenters are actually out to get her.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-04-15 11:14am

I'm with Kane, this is all some BS cause she doesnt want to admit to a 'lowly fanboy' that she was wrong. Even if she is stupid enough not to realize the problem, after so many people point out to her she surely must have gotten the point by now.

And i can barely stand her "be nice or i'll tell!" crap, after she's basically called us (the fans) stupid, said she wanted to crush people's throats, called us 'talifans', and outright bullshitted to your face. We're being fucking civil, she's acting like a troll.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-15 11:15am

She's being backed up by DM and I'm having trouble restraining myself from calling him an damn retard for being so susceptible to false analogies.

Do you people honestly think you will convince Traviss about anything?

All I've seen, is that she doesn't care about numbers either way, she's just pushing her extreme interpretation of Palpatine's machinations, and I'm refuting that. If she's lying, then I don't want to point that out and ruin the conversation.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-04-15 11:27am

Show her "Talifan"!

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2006-04-15 11:37am

VT-16 wrote:All I've seen, is that she doesn't care about numbers either way, she's just pushing her extreme interpretation of Palpatine's machinations, and I'm refuting that. If she's lying, then I don't want to point that out and ruin the conversation.

She doesn't care about numbers as long as she doesn't have to admitt to a mistake and her "Palpatine fooling everyone that CIS army is billion times greater than it really was" is so idiotic that an eight year old could see through and so can she. This is nothing more than yet another far flung theory she came up with in order not to have to admit an error.
I think that it's nothing but an inferiority complex, she is small time in Star Wars universe and she knows it so now she tries to make drastic changes to the universe to make herself count.
"I did a RETCON and LFL approved it! See I'm not a nobody!"
Yeah I'm sure that you'll be remembered Karen, amongst all of three guys who will buy your books.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-15 11:39am

Funny thing is, they're not really harping on that so much anymore.

Even DM is starting to mellow out. Wow.

Show her "Talifan"!

The hell I will!

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-15 11:40am

VT-16 wrote:She's being backed up by DM and I'm having trouble restraining myself from calling him an damn retard for being so susceptible to false analogies.

As it has been pointed out: the Jedi are leading the armies, doesn't DM realize that they would've first hand information as to what happens on the various fronts?

Do you people honestly think you will convince Traviss about anything?

VT-16 wrote:All I've seen, is that she doesn't care about numbers either way, she's just pushing her extreme interpretation of Palpatine's machinations, and I'm refuting that. If she's lying, then I don't want to point that out and ruin the conversation.

My beef isn't mainly with the numbers, but how she has described the Clone Wars and how the populace didn't care about the war which other novels (and the ROTS novelization) clearly shows it did. It's those kinds of "retconns" really. I think TZ was pretty good (even if it was a little too much mandalorian stuff for my taste) and she's a good author, it doesn't have anything to do with that.

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-04-15 11:49am

As pointed out, the Jedi are leading the battles of the Clone Wars and directly report their activities to the Senate and the Jedi Council. The question then is:

1) Are the Jedi lying about their activities, acting in cohort with Palpatine, to decieve the Senate?

2) Is the Senate acting in cohort with Palpatine to decieve the entire galaxy?

3) If the Jedi are not a part of the troop inflation conspiracy, why do they not expose it?

The Jedi, of all people, would have the clearest picture of the war itself, leading it at all fronts. If they knew the truth, then they are actively betraying their Code. Everything that we have seen, however, indicates that there were no massive conspiracies and no massive inflations of troop numbers.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-04-15 12:34pm

Fire Fly wrote:The Jedi, of all people, would have the clearest picture of the war itself, leading it at all fronts. If they knew the truth, then they are actively betraying their Code. Everything that we have seen, however, indicates that there were no massive conspiracies and no massive inflations of troop numbers.

You're just not using your imagination!

IMAGINEERING!!!11!1one+shift

No but seriously, excellent point. Even IF Palps was running the media he certainly had no power over the Jedi, this is made plainly clear in the movie several times. So they would most certainly know the truth, and would never help him.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-04-15 01:57pm

Plus, the BS about there not being a war for a thousand years so no one knows anything about what war is like doesn't fly, because what is meant by that is there hasn't been a major galactic war for a thousand years. There've been lots of "brushfire wars" the Republic has lots of experience with small, local conflicts like: the Stark Hyperspace War, the Mandalorian conflict, Wookie-Trandoshan fights, local sector squabbles, and the Battle of Naboo. The Jedi know what a brushfire conflict or skirmish with only thousands or millions of participants looks like considering they've dealt with enough of them and mediated or fought in many of them.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-15 03:15pm

Mange the Swede wrote:
VT-16 wrote:She's being backed up by DM and I'm having trouble restraining myself from calling him an damn retard for being so susceptible to false analogies.
As it has been pointed out: the Jedi are leading the armies, doesn't DM realize that they would've first hand information as to what happens on the various fronts?

A very similar point came up on TF.net. One of the minimalist retards was actually the one who brought up the idea that the Jedi Council knew, in response to my argument that SOMEONE must have noticed that the GAR was a billion times too small. I asked why they never exposed this blatant conspiracy, and his "rebuttal" was that they wanted to focus on winning the war. Yup, the Jedi will still continue with business as usual even though it's clear as day that they've been had. Even though canon proves that they were suspicious of Chancellor Palpatine.

You have to be insane or retarded to think that 3 million even comes close to making sense, so don't think that a mere good point can sway these people.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-04-15 04:27pm

To expect that the Jedi would willingly go on the front lines with so few forces is idiotic.
They seem to forget that the very reason for the GAR's existance is that the Jedi could never fight a war by themselves and they knew it.
The Jedi were sensible enough not to engage in a galactic war on their own and they're going to do it with only 3 million clones to back them up? Horseshit!

If that had been the case we'd see Jedi sitting in the temple singing "hell no we won't go"

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-15 04:37pm

Those of you who have the time and patience (I suggest the lower part of the LJ thread), you can see both Traviss and DM mellowing out and DM even commenting on how the numbers don't make sense (the low ones).

He was mostly just chatting on about Palpatine orchestrating the war, and when I repeatedly told him I understood that perfectly and wasn't arguing any of it apart from sheer logistics, he almost seemed understanding.

Well, I was impressed. :)

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-15 06:39pm

Doesn't that make it *worse*? He's just fucking around: he doesn't actually give a shit, he just wants to be a part of the controversy.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-15 06:47pm

Well, he was mostly talking about the concepts behind the war, not so much the actual logistics of it. Hell, he even said that stuff like Iraq wasn't applicable to a galactic war, just that some of the ideology behind it was similar (and in return, similar to Vietnam, which is part of what Lucas based some of his concepts on). But like I said, the conversation wasn't so much on the numbers, so I didn't have any problem with that part.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-04-15 07:30pm

Stark wrote:Doesn't that make it *worse*? He's just fucking around: he doesn't actually give a shit, he just wants to be a part of the controversy.

He's always been a troll; he's just had mod powers at the OS that he can abuse at every turn. It shouldn't really be surprising that he trolls elsewhere.

Edit: Incredible.

jamesgilmer wrote:I guess part of my problem is that there are plenty of private blogging systems that allow a person who feels the need to vent to go on in a private (though open to public) place and vent and discuss.

Fan sites on the other hand, especially ones that try to act professional and look professional and attract VIPs to post...well, I have to say that I think they should hold themselves to higher standards and I think that the mods should...well, mod. Some of the things that I've seen said by ALL SIDES of the debate about authors and each other on certain sites are utterly unbecoming of anyone or any site that wants to be taken seriously.

There's a difference between the jokes that Karen makes about sending Sev around with a Verp and calling someone insane, a fraud, a liar, and so on.

While some may be offended by the very premise of what started this blog entry, a look at what molds obsession among fans and whether it fits any other psychological pathologies, she never names anyone, she doesn't blanket condemn any side of the debate, and I think I can safely ssay that she would extend what she says to her defenders should they cross the line of what she feels is healthy adult behavior.

Hey, asstard, Karen DID say that people like us have OCD, Asperger's syndrome, and the same mentality as suicide bombers and religious fundamentalists. I guess there's a big difference between those jokes and calling someone insane, a fraud, a liar, and so on?

And in case you hadn't noticed, Karen has made death threats against people; threatening to "rip out trachea," and also believes that others "need a garrotting."

The second bolded statement is just an outright lie.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-15 07:49pm

She did say that that's not her rational side talking. At least quote her in full there.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-15 07:56pm

Yeah it's not my rational side talking and I'm a serial rapist. Better forgive me.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-04-15 08:06pm

VT-16 wrote:She did say that that's not her rational side talking. At least quote her in full there.

Oh, I'm sorry. That's only her "gut feeling." I really don't think that what I said was misrepresentative of her sentiments.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-04-16 12:07am

Don't look now, but I think that we've given the TFN crowd pause in their theorizing just by stepping back and telling them what their own theory implies.

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2006-04-16 01:49am

Add BobaMatt to the idiot list.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-16 04:51pm

Slightly off-topic, but related to the clones. The editor of Dark Horse made a few comments about Triple Zero and how Traviss has handled the clones here:

+http://www.darkhorse.com/boards/viewtop ... 7&start=15

Which led to an apology here:

+http://www.darkhorse.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=9021

I think he made some good points regarding how the clones are described in the movies visavi the portrayal in novels (yes, I know, the ARCs and commandos haven't been "flash" imprinted, but they're still grown).

EDIT: VT-16, don't miss this:
+http://karentraviss.livejournal.com/280 ... 8#t4888468

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-16 06:03pm

Great, whatever impression some of you left on them, now makes you look like McEwok-clones. Damn. :P

I did like DM naming Nex (who here had that blog?) as the kind of person he likes in a debate, even if it's an opposite position.

I think you can kiss any hope of concession from her goodbye forever, no matter what happens next.

The best I've gotten out of all of this, is that "she doesn't care about the numbers either way", "she didn't make them, she was given them by LFL and tried to make them work", and her defenders admitting the numbers aren't that good/believable, and that they won't try to force people to accept them as "absolute" or anything.

Also, a reaffirmation that authors can't get past LFL editors and policy makers, and that "subverting canon" isn't possible. (Which is of course good news, since who's been blamed more of that than Curtis Saxton?) :)

I also got an apology from DM when his initial handwavium-technique didn't faze me, and a seeming understanding of the opposition's view on the low-end figures. And I do believe Ryan Kaufman popped in to refute his former statement, leading me to thank him for it, regardless of him regretting it now. :P