Star Wars military query...

[Spartan]

None its an unproduced kitbash prototype, ie it was never licensed.

[Lazarus]

Thank god for that
I was thinking about the stage three Dark Trooper, and it occurred to me that with a few extra additions (that I presume it doesn't have, although were exact specs ever given?) it could become the ultimate soldier.
Basically, add modular weapons (swap flamer for kinetic automatic depending on mission etc), add a personal shield generator, computer systems that integrate directly with the user, a full sensor suite and some other goodies, and you have a soldier about 5 times as effective as a stormie. I wonder if cancelling the project was a sign of Palpy's increasing insanity?

[Noble Ire]

Thank god for that
I was thinking about the stage three Dark Trooper, and it occurred to me that with a few extra additions (that I presume it doesn't have, although were exact specs ever given?) it could become the ultimate soldier.
Basically, add modular weapons (swap flamer for kinetic automatic depending on mission etc), add a personal shield generator, computer systems that integrate directly with the user, a full sensor suite and some other goodies, and you have a soldier about 5 times as effective as a stormie. I wonder if cancelling the project was a sign of Palpy's increasing insanity?

Its probably a question of economics and necessity. On top of the simple fact that regular stormtrooper gear is probably easier to maintain and transport, outfitting every trooper that way might be prohibitively expensive (or at least not efficent), even for the Empire (remember, there are probably quadrillions of stormtroopers, and since similar soldiers can cost as much as starships to build -Magnaguards-, well, you get the picture). And even if cost wasn't an issue, there simply wouldn't be a need. A well-supported and armed squad of stormtroopers could probably outmatch virtually ever infantry force in the galaxy by the Imperial period, and certainly whatever the rebels could put forth.

Still, Dark Troopers would make good elite soldiers, like the RCs of the Clone Wars. Nevertheless, their loss is by no mean a particularly great one.

[Lazarus]

Wasn't the capital-ship-cost magna guard figure including development? And wouldn't that only be the case because:
1. They have highly complex droid brains.
2. They are limited run models.
Couldn't the Empire mass produced the DT armour with design additions designed to make it easier to produce? I agree that it might not be suitable for 100% deployment, esoecially on backwater worlds, but as a replacement for Marines and front line army troopers I think it would be an invaluable asset. Considering the Empire's resources, mass producing what is effectively a slightly-wanked-out droid exoskeleton wouldn't be difficult.

[Noble Ire]

Wasn't the capital-ship-cost magna guard figure including development? And wouldn't that only be the case because:
1. They have highly complex droid brains.
2. They are limited run models.

True enough.

Couldn't the Empire mass produced the DT armour with design additions designed to make it easier to produce? I agree that it might not be suitable for 100% deployment, esoecially on backwater worlds, but as a replacement for Marines and front line army troopers I think it would be an invaluable asset. Considering the Empire's resources, mass producing what is effectively a slightly-wanked-out droid exoskeleton wouldn't be difficult.

They probably could, but as I said, why would they need to? A vast, vast majority of the Imperial stormtrooper forces are tasked with peacekeeping/ship security duties, which aren't really suited to battle suits. On the rare occasion when they're actually needed for planned combat operations, stormies do well enough on their own. Still, as I said, Darktroopers might still make good elite troops, and it might have been worth it to invest more in them, especially if Palpatine had lasted long enough to face the Vong, as he foresaw.

[nightmare]

Thank god for that
I was thinking about the stage three Dark Trooper, and it occurred to me that with a few extra additions (that I presume it doesn't have, although were exact specs ever given?) it could become the ultimate soldier.
Basically, add modular weapons (swap flamer for kinetic automatic depending on mission etc), add a personal shield generator, computer systems that integrate directly with the user, a full sensor suite and some other goodies, and you have a soldier about 5 times as effective as a stormie. I wonder if cancelling the project was a sign of Palpy's increasing insanity?

Stormtroopers already have a helmet computer and sensors. Darktroopers have no need of a shield generator. Phase III armor is made of phrik, which is now canonically a lightsaber-resistant alloy. Before ROTS it was just helluva tough. The PIII DT already have several different weapons (multi-piped assault cannon, rockets, homing missiles) and is quite capable of changing it.

There's no obvious connection to Palpatine's clone instability; presumably he had not yet needed to make himself a new body. It was just a poor decision, but considering that he lost a valuable research facility and no one knows how many credits just to a jedi mercenary, it's not strange that he got riled up. The idea of a super soldier would return later under Thrawn, and you could argue that it did so under Palpatine as well, except his new darktroopers didn't have exosuits, just some limited dark side connectiion. This seemed to generally be his new method to insure loyalty and increase combat efficiency during Dark Empire. Presumably, battle droids took the place of exo-suit darktroopers since we can see the SD-9 (old Imperial BD), SD-10 (New Balmorran model), and X-1s (secured by Sedriss for the Empire) in action during this period. As previously noted, the Empire also made use of XR-85s, seekers, etc.

[Lazarus]

Why wouldn't they have need of a shield generator, whether the armour is lightsaber resistant or not makes no difference. We've seen how inneffective Stormie armour is against civilian purchasable, high powered weapons like the DL-44, building a shield generator into the DT armour would only improve its combat capabilities.

[Noble Ire]

Why wouldn't they have need of a shield generator, whether the armour is lightsaber resistant or not makes no difference. We've seen how inneffective Stormie armour is against civilian purchasable, high powered weapons like the DL-44, building a shield generator into the DT armour would only improve its combat capabilities.

Stormtrooper armor is actually fairly effective against civilian weaponry, which it is most likely to run into. True, most soldiers fall from hits, but the energy and heat absorption abilities of the suit likely preserve the life of most, even after direct hits (as with kevlar armor). You could give each a shield, but they're energy intensive and difficult to maintain, not cost effective.

[nightmare]

Why wouldn't they have need of a shield generator, whether the armour is lightsaber resistant or not makes no difference. We've seen how inneffective Stormie armour is against civilian purchasable, high powered weapons like the DL-44, building a shield generator into the DT armour would only improve its combat capabilities.

Slightly. Not cost effective, and I can't help but think that it has to be easier to pick up shields on a sensor scope than armor.

[Lazarus]

The troops would be wearingg half a ton of armour, so without some sort of stealth system I wouldn't think they'd be exactly subtle. Either way, activating the shields would only occur during combat.

Perhaps shields would not be all that cost effective, but that has never struck me as a problem for the Empire. Although, on the other hand, they did choose TIE's over shielded fighters, a choice which probably contributed to their defeat in the civil war.

[Ghost Rider]

Perhaps shields would not be all that cost effective, but that has never struck me as a problem for the Empire. Although, on the other hand, they did choose TIE's over shielded fighters, a choice which probably contributed to their defeat in the civil war.

Cost effective is needed for any military. No nation has unlimited resources.

Actually with movie evidence, TIEs are shielded.

[Lazarus]

Well true, but not usually with combat effective shields, only navigational shields. Some were, as we've seen in the EU, however they paid the price for their shields in speed.

[Ghost Rider]

Well true, but not usually with combat effective shields, only navigational shields. Some were, as we've seen in the EU, however they paid the price for their shields in speed.

Then explain the bizarre bursts when it faces off the Millenium Falcon...and if you're going to say Flak, I want your evidence for that as well. There is fact that there are more occasions TIE have shown shields....in all three of the OT movies.

And don't backpedal and give it a name. Either prove that the shields were inadequete or shove it. And given we saw X-Wings taken down in the same amount of blast, I guess I should say the X-Wings only had nav shields, right?

[Lazarus]

Then explain the bizarre bursts when it faces off the Millenium Falcon...and if you're going to say Flak, I want your evidence for that as well. There is fact that there are more occasions TIE have shown shields....in all three of the OT movies.

I'm not sure which point you're talking about, when was this, I'll check on my copy. For any instances where TIE's seem to be unusually durable, I'd suggest that these would be squadron leaders fighters etc, or perhaps entire squadrons refitted with shields, like Avenger Squadron in the Balance of Power add on to XvT.

[Ghost Rider]

Then explain the bizarre bursts when it faces off the Millenium Falcon...and if you're going to say Flak, I want your evidence for that as well. There is fact that there are more occasions TIE have shown shields....in all three of the OT movies.

I'm not sure which point you're talking about, when was this, I'll check on my copy. For any instances where TIE's seem to be unusually durable, I'd suggest that these would be squadron leaders fighters etc, or perhaps entire squadrons refitted with shields, like Avenger Squadron in the Balance of Power add on to XvT.

One, it's the final blast against when Luke and Han are shooting the final one.

And two, burden of proof is for you to demonstrate they are leaders or special and this is a point of why EU may explain as "Special."...that can always be thought of because it is no longer the height of the Empire.

And your original assertion makes no sense, as their downfall had nothing to do with snub fighters since they play(barring Rogue Squadron's wanking) a very small part of any major victory. The New Order collasped primarily through in fighting.

[Lazarus]

You misunderstand my point, I wasn't suggesting the downfall of the Empire was due to snubfighters, I was saying that because the Imps went for numbers over quality with the TIE's, they might also do the same in a hypothetical production of the DT armour, ie, no shields.

I always thought that the ICS should be turned to when considering technical specifics like this, and it states that TIE's have no combat shields. The entire EU also states that.

Having re-watched the scene you describe, the TIE in question is making a pass on the Falcon, at about a 90 degree angle to one of the gun turrets. The turret fires, the bolts go wide each side first, then between the TIE's 'wings'. The shot then cuts to the inside of the turret, then back out again, to show the TIE being destroyed by an on-target blast. Nowhere in this scene do blasts from the turrets dissipate on shields around the fighters.

[Stark]

?? Maybe they changed it in the various editions - I don't fellate Lucas enough to buy each one - but I've seen quadgun blasts track across a TIE - missing - and have distinct 'shield interactions' between the wing panels.

TIE=no shields in an EU invention. We've all seen ROTS now: the same reasoning (moviewise) can be applied to known-shielded craft like ARC-170s.

[Lazarus]

The only time when I am aware of a laser blast actually appearing to dissipate before it hit a TIE was during the Battle of Endor. A TIE Bomber is engaging Rebel craft, and I believe is fired upon by the falcon. The line of fire is at something like a 75 degree angle to the craft, and a glancing hit dissipates in front of the TIE.

I can't remember where I saw the analysis of this moment, but it may be on SWTC, however I'm not sure. The purpose of this analysis was to prove that TIE's do indeed have navigational shields, and the glancing nature of the shot meant that it was dissipated by the navigational shields, rather than nicking the edge of the bombers wing. Even Dr Saxton acknowledges that most TIE's are combat shield-less on his TIE analysis page.

[Stark]

Again, we see known-shielded craft destroyed with single hits/short bursts in the prequels. Fighter shielding isn't worth shit, EU bullshit and games be damned. Direct hits destroy even 'heavily' shielded X-wings and B-wings - again, ignoring the games and EU.

[Ghost Rider]

You misunderstand my point, I wasn't suggesting the downfall of the Empire was due to snubfighters, I was saying that because the Imps went for numbers over quality with the TIE's, they might also do the same in a hypothetical production of the DT armour, ie, no shields.

I always thought that the ICS should be turned to when considering technical specifics like this, and it states that TIE's have no combat shields. The entire EU also states that.

The movies supercede this.

Having re-watched the scene you describe, the TIE in question is making a pass on the Falcon, at about a 90 degree angle to one of the gun turrets. The turret fires, the bolts go wide each side first, then between the TIE's 'wings'. The shot then cuts to the inside of the turret, then back out again, to show the TIE being destroyed by an on-target blast. Nowhere in this scene do blasts from the turrets dissipate on shields around the fighters.

Right...and on Chapter 39 01:35:39...a blast hits the left pylon to the wing...the ship doesn't turn to dust, two seconds before we see an interaction with "something".

As for the scene I was describing...it follows as such.

01:35:58: Final Approach

01:35:58: Two frames(Interaction)

01:35:58: Three Frames(interaction)

01:35:58: Seven Frames(Pylon Hit)

01:36:00: Two shots...destroyed.

So no, it doesn't all dissipate.

Thus going back to your original assertion...it's obvious the Empire did prefer something but only idiots wank to the shit of this particular quote

Perhaps shields would not be all that cost effective, but that has never struck me as a problem for the Empire. Although, on the other hand, they did choose TIE's over shielded fighters, a choice which probably contributed to their defeat in the civil war.

Which the movies demonstrate they did no such fucking thing. Instead you've been backpedaling by going "Such-such shielding!!!" and then appealing to authority by asking ICS, Dr Saxton!!!.

So are you going to back up your assertion or not dumbfuck?

[Lazarus]

I agree Ghost, your analysis proves that something happened with that laser bolt that would not be expected from firing at an unshielded target. Obviously I'm new at this, but isn't it a bit of a leap to suggest that because of this, ALL TIE fighters have combat shields, and directly contradict the entire EU? Surely isn't it more logical to say that MOST TIE's do not have combat shields, and this one was an exception, considering the weight of lesser evidence? Every other TIE, except the bomber I have stated, is destroyed with no sign of shields. I know, this then leads us to the point 'Well we see known shielded fighters destroyed in the same way'. However, these craft have dialogue backing up the presence of shields, eg 'Switch your deflectors on'.

Concerning your request for evidence, I could provide ample evidence from the EU, however I am aware the movies supersede it, and there is no dialogue in the films that states that TIE craft have no combat shields. On a purely evidence vs evidence level, you win. I know, 'what other level is there?'...

[Ghost Rider]

I agree Ghost, your analysis proves that something happened with that laser bolt that would not be expected from firing at an unshielded target. Obviously I'm new at this, but isn't it a bit of a leap to suggest that because of this, ALL TIE fighters have combat shields, and directly contradict the entire EU? Surely isn't it more logical to say that MOST TIE's do not have combat shields, and this one was an exception, considering the weight of lesser evidence? Every other TIE, except the bomber I have stated, is destroyed with no sign of shields. I know, this then leads us to the point 'Well we see known shielded fighters destroyed in the same way'. However, these craft have dialogue backing up the presence of shields, eg 'Switch your deflectors on'.

Concerning your request for evidence, I could provide ample evidence from the EU, however I am aware the movies supersede it, and there is no dialogue in the films that states that TIE craft have no combat shields. On a purely evidence vs evidence level, you win. I know, 'what other level is there?'...

The point is, there is interaction and we have seen X-Wings and Y-Wings die under the same amount of firepower.

So how is it logical that some ships touted in the EU as having Shields, while other aren't...yet in the movies both ships die under the same amount of blaster interaction?

That is my beef with that how the EU touts..."TIES have no shields!!!"...then either they have immense armor that puts them on par with a shield or both sides had shields and the brain bug of TIEs have nothing is created because of EU writing, or more specifically WEG and X-Wing games created it.

[Lazarus]

Maybe it could be down to the fact that in the films the Rebel fighters are directly stated as having shields (Switch deflectors on yadda yadda), whilst there is no corresponding quote for TIE's?

[Ghost Rider]

Maybe it could be down to the fact that in the films the Rebel fighters are directly stated as having shields (Switch deflectors on yadda yadda), whilst there is no corresponding quote for TIE's?

That's where likely WEG got the idea. What is so odd is they give Vader shielding because he survived impact with another vessel...which is funny since the other vessel did the very same. Only instead of being vaulted into space, it kissed the side of the trench. Nothing at all speaks of if Vader's position was reversed his own vessel wouldn't be plastered against the trench walls

I say the thing that made it more preeminent was not even the movies having us hear what the Rebels report it, was also the games. In such one of the tactics to get a quick kill my lowly X-Wing, is to power shields up double front, RAM TIE, recharge shields.