Are the effects of the force limited by the speed of light?

[Plushie]

I'm curious because I had an idea for a story, or rather, I wish to adapt an extant story for Star Wars and I want to know if it would work.

Basically, it has to do with subjective time dilation at relativistic velocities. Doing the math, at particularly high fractions of c, one could achieve trans-galactic travel in a "comfortable" seventy or so years subjective time. Of course, it'd be millions of years on the outside, but the travelers surviving is what's important.

Also, a side question:

The reason trans-galactic travel hasn't occured outside of travel to the satellite galaxies and that extra-galactic Jedi attempt is because of some sort of hyperspace barrier, correct?

[Elheru Aran]

I'm curious because I had an idea for a story, or rather, I wish to adapt an extant story for Star Wars and I want to know if it would work.

Basically, it has to do with subjective time dilation at relativistic velocities. Doing the math, at particularly high fractions of c, one could achieve trans-galactic travel in a "comfortable" seventy or so years subjective time. Of course, it'd be millions of years on the outside, but the travelers surviving is what's important.

Um, what does this have to do with the Force?

Also, a side question:

The reason trans-galactic travel hasn't occured outside of travel to the satellite galaxies and that extra-galactic Jedi attempt is because of some sort of hyperspace barrier, correct?

No. There's no 'hyperspace barrier'. The Trade Federation has done trips half the distance to the nearest satellite galaxy without too much trouble. The Outbound Flight project was expected to succeed; the only reason it didn't was because of Thrawn intervening and Palpatine's machinations.

[nightmare]

Obi-Wan Kenobi could feel the destruction of Alderaan in what seemed like real time; certainly long before reaching lightspeed propagation range.

[1123581321]

Yoda felt Mace's death. Yoda felt the extermination of the Jedi. The Force is FTL.

[nightmare]

How about "real time", rather than FTL? Suppose that it's because the Force is present (almost) everywhere, so it doesn't actually have to travel anywhere?

[Surlethe]

How about "real time", rather than FTL? Suppose that it's because the Force is present (almost) everywhere, so it doesn't actually have to travel anywhere?

Conventionally, information cannot travel faster than the speed of light; if a datum enters the Force at one point in space -- say, when Ki-Adi Mundi was killed in Order 66 -- it must still travel through the Force to reach Yoda thousands of light years away. So "real time" is still FTL -- it's just really, really fast FTL.

[Plushie]

Um, what does this have to do with the Force?

Comms.

But shit, there's no hyperspace barrier?

Damn...

[Eframepilot]

The hyperspace barrier was a myth mentioned in early NJO that many believed; because of this, they didn't think that the Yuuzhan Vong were real or at least extra-galactic. Of course, the Yuuzhan Vong invasion itself proved that the barrier did not exist, at least not any more.

The Force appears to transmit information in real time, but it can even send messages and visions backwards through time. Luke felt the pain of Han's torture in Cloud City before the Millenium Falcon arrived there.

[Lazarus]

Of course, the Yuuzhan Vong invasion itself proved that the barrier did not exist, at least not any more.

Actually, the meaning behind the title Vector Prime is the region of the supposed galactic barrier that the Yuuzhan Vong had to pass through to enter the galaxy, as it was impossible elsewhere. Is this not the case then?

[nightmare]

Conventionally, information cannot travel faster than the speed of light; if a datum enters the Force at one point in space -- say, when Ki-Adi Mundi was killed in Order 66 -- it must still travel through the Force to reach Yoda thousands of light years away. So "real time" is still FTL -- it's just really, really fast FTL.

Yes, I agree, hence "real time" in quotes. There's no such thing as instant when it comes to physical limitations. It might be possible to determine an upper limit from observed examples, but I think it's an act of futility. As far as the SW galaxy goes, it may just as well be considered real time.

[Spartan]

Lazarus wrote:

Actually, the meaning behind the title Vector Prime is the region of the supposed galactic barrier that the Yuuzhan Vong had to pass through to enter the galaxy, as it was impossible elsewhere. Is this not the case then?

You really should take the time to search the archives this was disproven long ago. There is no barrier and their never was! There were numerous sources for extragalactic travel in the EU, long before the NJO was even planned. Oh and the fact that hyperspace travel is tachyonic and the only possible barrier to such travel would require a physical obstruction. Galaxies to do not have physical barriers around them. In universe the barrier is a myth, that was aided by the fact that the only large expedition to try to leave the Galaxy disappeared without a trace.

[Kurgan]

Wasn't the whole 'Galactic Barrier' thing (stolen from Trek, karf, karf) retconned simply because of AOTC, implicitly showing us extra galactic travel and mapping in the Old Republic, many decades before the NJO? And also forcing a retcon of the "Unknown Regions" too, right?

[Elheru Aran]

Um, what does this have to do with the Force?

Comms.

In this case then, remember that a.) the HoloNet is just as good, being virtually instanteous plus hackable, and b.) in canon, Force communication is *very* rare. The clearest instance we see is Luke and Vader in ESB; for the most part, the reciepent of the message only gets a vague impression of the event that just happened. Obi-wan had no idea that Alderaan had been destroyed, only that some momentous calamity had occurred just then.

[Shadowtraveler]

Wasn't the whole 'Galactic Barrier' thing (stolen from Trek, karf, karf) retconned simply because of AOTC, implicitly showing us extra galactic travel and mapping in the Old Republic, many decades before the NJO? And also forcing a retcon of the "Unknown Regions" too, right?

The way it's described in the first few NJO novels implies that it's really nothing more than a pseudo-theory or something like that. Everyone just happens to believe it exists because everyone who's ever tried leaving the galactic rim has never returned.

[Spartan]

Kurgan wrote:

Wasn't the whole 'Galactic Barrier' thing (stolen from Trek, karf, karf) retconned simply because of AOTC, implicitly showing us extra galactic travel and mapping in the Old Republic, many decades before the NJO? And also forcing a retcon of the "Unknown Regions" too, right?

Yes, the Unknown Regions thankfully were retroconned by the AOTC, AOTC: ITW, etc. But like I said the "Great Barrier" was patently false even before NJO decided to float that stupidity. But mind you we never hear from any astro-physicists in NJO; and the common man is commonly quite stupid about science.

[Cykeisme]

Alderaan and Order 66 still qualify as communication.. the transfer of information had occurred.

Relevant to the topic, yeah, both propogated at FTL velocities.

[nightmare]

Even the old Dark Empire Scourcebook speculates in Palpatine's plans for extra-galactic conquest.

[Molyneux]

I'd say that information can propagate FTL through the Force; however, physical effects of Force energy (whatever that is) are limited to relativistic speeds. Hell, Grievous dodged Force Push attempts, and he's not not even moving at race-car speeds

[nightmare]

I'd say that information can propagate FTL through the Force; however, physical effects of Force energy (whatever that is) are limited to relativistic speeds. Hell, Grievous dodged Force Push attempts, and he's not not even moving at race-car speeds

It may depend on where the push/throw/choke is initiated. Vader choked Ozzel from unknown distance within the Executor depending on how far he was away from the bridge, probably in his chamber. Of course, that distance is too low to call it FTL.

And of course, if one wants to bring up the EU... Palpatine invoking a force storm from many lightyears away in Dark Empire, Jedi students throwing several VSDs out of the system in Darksaber... although it should be noted that both events are outlier and far from standard procedure. The claim that Valley-enhanced Jerec would be able to slow up stars like popcorn must've been FTL, too. Aleema Keto ripping the core out of a star with the help of a Sith artifact must have been FTL, too. Particularly since she was planning to throw it into the Republic fleet.

[Kurgan]

Okay so you're saying the Galactic Great Star Trek Barrier in the Star Wars galaxy was only half-a$$ed crap even within the novel, before any retcons... ? Wise move on the author's part.

Then again this often happens doesn't it? Some source throws out some crap, but doesn't develop it, so thankfully it can be more easily forgotten.

Not having read it, I can only take your word for it, but that's good enough for me!

[Cykeisme]

The thread title asks if Force effects propogate FTL.. Yoda's reaction to the execution of Order 66 pretty much answers it.

It's just the idea of the galactic barirer, now. The existence of the two satellite galaxies above and below the main galactic disc, coupled with the "InterGalactic Banking Clan" (it's not hyperbole after all) answers that.

Hell, Grievous dodged Force Push attempts, and he's not not even moving at race-car speeds

The delay that allowed Grievous to avoid the strikes was probably a delay between the Jedi initiating the attack and the effect actually happening, rather than an invisible "push" slowly flying outward.

[Molyneux]

The thread title asks if Force effects propogate FTL.. Yoda's reaction to the execution of Order 66 pretty much answers it.

It's just the idea of the galactic barirer, now. The existence of the two satellite galaxies above and below the main galactic disc, coupled with the "InterGalactic Banking Clan" (it's not hyperbole after all) answers that.

Hell, Grievous dodged Force Push attempts, and he's not not even moving at race-car speeds

The delay that allowed Grievous to avoid the strikes was probably a delay between the Jedi initiating the attack and the effect actually happening, rather than an invisible "push" slowly flying outward.

Hm...possible. I don't have access to the CW shorts right now, unfortunately...think that someone could determine which of the two it is by close viewing?

[Kurgan]

Grievous demonstrated incredible power levels in the CW season 2 that he never demonstrated in the movie, including being able to leap dozens of feet in the air, react as fast if not faster than Jedi Masters, etc.

I personally wish to chalk this up to the same kind of exaggeration as are given the Jedi in the same series (Mace Windu is able to make SBD's explode with his mind, and punch them to fragments, fighting off an entire army of them, much larger than the army on Geonosis, and a large portion of it done without the use of his saber even! All he needed to do was get a swig of water from a kid afterword... even at their best the Jedi in the prequels don't approach this level of power). The Jedi are hugely exaggerated, except when fighting Grievous of course, when he is then given the wanking.

Thus I'm not too optimistic about drawing accurate calculations of power levels from the animated series. It will be interesting to see if the CG series does anything to change this (will it retread the same events or new ones in the same era?), though I'm not very optimistic. The essence of Samurai Jack was the same kind of exaggeration and video game style fights, rather than "combat realism" and this philosophy seems largely to have been adopted by the CW. It was very entertaining and "worked," to the point where I've heard plenty of people say online that the series was "better than the prequels" or "what the new movies should have been," but anyway...

[Molyneux]

Grievous demonstrated incredible power levels in the CW season 2 that he never demonstrated in the movie, including being able to leap dozens of feet in the air, react as fast if not faster than Jedi Masters, etc.

I personally wish to chalk this up to the same kind of exaggeration as are given the Jedi in the same series (Mace Windu is able to make SBD's explode with his mind, and punch them to fragments, fighting off an entire army of them, much larger than the army on Geonosis, and a large portion of it done without the use of his saber even! All he needed to do was get a swig of water from a kid afterword... even at their best the Jedi in the prequels don't approach this level of power). The Jedi are hugely exaggerated, except when fighting Grievous of course, when he is then given the wanking.

Thus I'm not too optimistic about drawing accurate calculations of power levels from the animated series. It will be interesting to see if the CG series does anything to change this (will it retread the same events or new ones in the same era?), though I'm not very optimistic. The essence of Samurai Jack was the same kind of exaggeration and video game style fights, rather than "combat realism" and this philosophy seems largely to have been adopted by the CW. It was very entertaining and "worked," to the point where I've heard plenty of people say online that the series was "better than the prequels" or "what the new movies should have been," but anyway...

Any possibility that Mace as seen in that battle in the CW short was basically Mace without the detriment of the Dark Side veil, using the full extent of his Force abilities?

[Kurgan]

That might be interesting, but if that's the case, why didn't Qui Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan have a similar experience? Then again this is sort of touched on in the ROTS novelisation, but I don't recall the exact details (something about Obi-Wan remembering a time when the Force didn't seem clouded).

Also, how do we understand this "shroud of the dark side" stuff?

What exactly does it entail... is it just the ability to see the future that is hindered? Or just precog?

Because the abilities demonstrated by Mace Windu in the CW are not limited to precog, short or long term, he's able to tear apart droids with his mind, and smash them with his bare hands with incredible speed. He turns into "the Flash" for the most part. As to the ability to crush metal with your mind, the only person to demonstrate that in the movies is Anakin at the end of ROTS, but even then that's just some sheet metal in the wall, not a bunch of SBD carapaces. The power is never used again (even the choking of Imperial officers seems to be a different power, because otherwise they would be dead in seconds with their trachea crushed instead of just seeming to be unable to breath and slowly losing consciousness, but being fine when the power is withdrawn).

Anyway, if the veil was lifted, one wonders how or why and why nothing was mentioned of it. It's a nice attempt at an explanation though!

The "official" explanation was that the Mace Windu episode (I thought) was just the exagerated memories of a child embelishing the story (the boy who gave him water at the end). Of course it doesn't do anything to fix the exaggerations and wanking in the rest of the series, unless we assume the whole thing is also the kid's idea of how things happened.

I tentatively propose that a possible explanation for the disparity in Grievous' combat abilities between CW and RotS might be due to the injuries he sustained to his organics following Mace's telekinetic attack. He may have needed extensive surgery to repair his organs, or more time to heal, before he regained peak effectiveness.

We see no damage on Grievous when he first appears in ROTS, but he has the cough. He didn't seem to really have time to have repairs done or recouperate, since CW leads right into the beginning of ROTS. Anyway, I still think it's a stretch.

As for Mace's armor-rending feats of telekinesis, it's possible that we don't see any Force users do things like that in the movies because they don't have to. Mace happened to lose his lightsaber and had to stave off battle droids, a particular situation that doesn't occur in the movies.
Yoda and Sidious tossing around Senate pods must involve at least as much force as that needed to fling SBDs around and smash them open. True, those two are above the strength level of the average Jedi, but then again, so is Mace.

I don't buy it, any other time we see Jedi lose their lightsabers they typically run away or surrender (Anakin surrendered to Battle Droids and Jango Fett when his lightsaber didn't work, Obi-Wan ran away from Battle Droids in the scene that was cut from TPM in the swamp). Heck, QuiGon and Obi ran from Destroyers in TPM even when they had their sabers, and Anakin and Obi also avoided a fight with Destroyers as well (I guess shields block the Force). Even if they are forced to fight (Obi-Wan and Anakin in the Arena) they never use anything close to such a tactic.

Flinging Senate pods is one thing. The CW Jedi seem to have an inexhaustable supply of power, they can toss around entire crowds, toss multiple airships at once, etc. It's multipled and exaggerated beyond what the top movie Force users can do. If Force users have the ability to rip a droid in half from a distance with a quick gesture, they can kill anyone using that technique. So why don't they?

Nevertheless, the explanation that those scenes are based on exaggerated accounts is accepted; the question is how much is exaggeration.

I'd say, a LOT... heh.