The declining quality of EU characters

[General Soontir Fel]

Got this thinking when reading about Dune 7 in OSF. Is it just me, or did the EU authors stop introducing good new characters?

Let's take a look at new characters introduced (this is by no means a complete list, but I picked those that are most memorable, and that appear frequently in later works):

Thrawn Trilogy:
Thrawn
Gilad Pellaeon
Talon Karrde
Mara Jade
Borsk Fey'lya
Garm Bel Iblis

JAT:
Kyp Durron
Daala

X-wing series:
Tycho Celch
Corran Horn
Ysanne Isard
Note: Wes Janson is not an EU character, since he appears and has a line in ESB.

NJO:
Nom Anor
Jagged Fel
Nen Yim
Tsavong Lah

These are memorable characters. I got these off the top of my head. They are likely to be remembered even by someone who read the books once.

Can you name any memorable characters introduced in the Dark Nest trilogy (or, for that matter, in the later NJO--I think Vergere was the last such character)? I can't. Can you name any memorable characters introduced in the Clone Wars EU? I can name two: Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress. And I have read all the novels and all the comics.

So is it correct to say that as time goes by:
1)Movie characters are written poorer
2)Previously introduced EU characters are written poorer
3)The introductions of new good characters come to nil

Hmm... is that the (yet another) reason for the EU decline?

[Noble Ire]

Can you name any memorable characters introduced in the Clone Wars EU? I can name two: Quinlan Vos and Asajj Ventress. And I have read all the novels and all the comics.

I can name two more off the top of my head: Durge and Scout, the former because he had an interesting, if wanky, character design, and the latter simply because she was a relatively unique and rather well-written character, even if she only appeared in one book.

But you are correct, the recent EU has produced fewer memorable characters, and such a decline is certainly reducing its quality overall.

[Darth Fanboy]

REcent Clone Wars EU has been all right by me, the same however cannot be said for the Post RoTJ EU, which fails repeatedly. Especially between KJA and Stackpole. The exception being Allston's Wraith Squadron. I would have liked to see more out of that group.

[VT-16]

I hate Durge's personality and constant one-liners, but I like his backstory. (Bizarre alien living for thousands of years and working for Sith Lords in multiple eras)

[Lord Pounder]

The Solo kids where introduced more in the JA trilogy and if DN is any indication we're gonna see more of them and less of the old hands. I also liked Jag Fel's character and thought he should have been kept in a relationship with Jaina.

[Stark]

'Jagged Fel'? Are you serious?

I don't read the EU, but I guess it's worth mentioning I've never heard of anyone from the last group. But really, when it's only SW in the loosest possible sense (no NR, no Empire, no Sith, quasi-Jedi, etc) who would expect good characters?

[LongVin]

I think one of the main problems is the characters aren't possessed by one author and most authors only write one book in a series and the new author isn't connected with that character.

If you had one author writing say all the books in NJO he would be emotionally attached to those characters and would have them more rounded out and their would be better continuity between books instead of having one book run with an idea and in the next book the new author just throwing it aside to run with his ideas.

[Darth Cronos the Proud]

I also liked Jag Fel's character and thought he should have been kept in a relationship with Jaina.

I only ever considered Jag Fel a memorable character because of his relationship with Jaina and not for any inherent character strength. And I'm glad he dropped that bitch (I couldn't stand her or her pacifistic prick of a twin brother, Anakin was the only interesting sibling and they had to go and kill him off; the fucking EU pisses me off sometimes).

[K. A. Pital]

I'd say that all after Thrawn just goes downhill and ends in a totally crappy way. That's my take on things.

Thrawn and Mara Jade are the most well-known even to amateur EU readers. They're also the only ones who got some real credit in SW computer games from the very start - Thrawn in TIE Fighter, Mara Jade in various Jedi Knight action series titles, she even got her "own" game (MotS). Bel Iblis, Pellaeon and Fey'lia were decent political-military figures for the series, if not super-outstanging chars, definetely. But even as for Zahn they were mere second-stage players, everyone used them later over and over again. I'm not speaking of how terribly overused Thrawn's protege was. Feel the fucking quality of T.Zahn

However, the rest just suck. Tsavong? Oh, that freaky dumb guy with biowank, right? Kyp? That pulled-out-of-the-ass by the Majestic Idiot KJA persona, who destroyed a whole nebula and - no shit - never went before trial in the New Republic, completely discrediting it's "democratic" government in the eyes of any SANE reader? Ysanne Isard? That psycho lady who doesn't know shit about stardestroyers, space combat and even basic politics, but only intrigue and torture? (no wonder she's just the head of Intelligence - must have been a hard fucking way up...) And that person is uh - leader of the Empire? O'rly? Nom Anor? That "I'm so cool Vong Agent"?

GOD, they all suck so much it's not even fun. And don't get me started on the Rebel side, things are even worse there.

Glad you didn't bring up the stinking pile that is Dark Empire and the Clone Emperor

[JediMaster415]

I think one of the main problems is the characters aren't possessed by one author and most authors only write one book in a series and the new author isn't connected with that character.

If you had one author writing say all the books in NJO he would be emotionally attached to those characters and would have them more rounded out and their would be better continuity between books instead of having one book run with an idea and in the next book the new author just throwing it aside to run with his ideas.

That is the common opinion, one I hold myself. If the NJO, for example, had been written by one person instead a different person for each "arc", then it would come out much more solid, more believeable.

[General Soontir Fel]

Please remember that the main criteria I used is how memorable characters are.

I'd say that all after Thrawn just goes downhill and ends in a totally crappy way. That's my take on things.

No argument there, except that the Thrawn trilogy was a pretty high hill, so there's still lots of room for quality.

Thrawn and Mara Jade are the most well-known even to amateur EU readers. They're also the only ones who got some real credit in SW computer games from the very start - Thrawn in TIE Fighter, Mara Jade in various Jedi Knight action series titles, she even got her "own" game (MotS).

If recognition in computer games is what we are going to go by, Kyle Katarn is better known than any of them.

Bel Iblis, Pellaeon and Fey'lia were decent political-military figures for the series, if not super-outstanging chars, definetely. But even as for Zahn they were mere second-stage players, everyone used them later over and over again.

They were secondary characters, but secondary the way Bail Organa is a secondary character in ROTS. Nothing wrong with that. They became more important later on. And they certainly were memorable. And original.

I'm not speaking of how terribly overused Thrawn's protege was. Feel the fucking quality of T.Zahn

Zahn himself made Pellaeon the successor. But yes, he was overused after that. Hell, he's still commanding fleets in Dark Nest. Zahn is indeed the best SW author. No argument there.

However, the rest just suck. Tsavong? Oh, that freaky dumb guy with biowank, right?

I think you're getting dislike for the NJO as a whole cloud your judgement. He was memorable enough, although re-reading, Nom Anor and Vergere are the only NJO characters who belong on the list.

Kyp? That pulled-out-of-the-ass by the Majestic Idiot KJA persona, who destroyed a whole nebula and - no shit - never went before trial in the New Republic, completely discrediting it's "democratic" government in the eyes of any SANE reader?

I have to agree. He was my least favorite character in the NJO. In JAT, he thought he was more powerful than Luke. In the NJO, they made him more powerful. But I think you missed my point, which was about characters that stand out so that you remember them. They don't have to be likeable characters, or ones you sympathise with.

Ysanne Isard? That psycho lady who doesn't know shit about stardestroyers, space combat and even basic politics, but only intrigue and torture? (no wonder she's just the head of Intelligence - must have been a hard fucking way up...) And that person is uh - leader of the Empire? O'rly? Nom Anor? That "I'm so cool Vong Agent"?

Once again, they are memorable.

GOD, they all suck so much it's not even fun. And don't get me started on the Rebel side, things are even worse there.

Kyle Katarn rocks. :wink

Glad you didn't bring up the stinking pile that is Dark Empire and the Clone Emperor

Well, he isn't an EU character, is he?

I don't think we really disagree on much. As, I said, my main point was that, over time:

1)Movie characters are written poorer
2)Previously introduced EU characters are written poorer
3)The introductions of new good characters come to nil.

Looking back, I probably shouldn't have put Tsavong (pretty much a generic villain), Nen Yim (not memorable enough), and Jagged Fel (remembered only as Jaina's boyfriend). That was the same reason I didn't put Callista there, who is there only as Luke's love interest (the same is not true of Mara, except in the minds of Callista fanboys :lol).

My main point, I believe, stands (and what I said in the above paragraph makes it stronger, not weaker): characters introduced in recent novels are so bland that you don't remember any of them after you finish the book (and in the case of Dark Nest, before you finish).

P.S. Someone please explain to me the Kyp/Jaina fanfiction phenomenon? Please?

[K. A. Pital]

Well, I do agree that even some of the utterly pathetic chars were "memorable" to some extent.

However, not the case with Kyp. He's not "memorable" at all.

He was "pumped up" in JAT, but since... being one of KJA's worst children, no one dared to "touch the gooey". I guess they waited for NJO so that people would forget how bad the char actually was and re-introduced him into the story. However, that still doesn't make him memorable.

Even if he is, that is Jar-Jar-like memorability.

Someone please explain to me the Kyp/Jaina fanfiction phenomenon?

Don't you know there's enough fanbois for every pairing?

P.S. Katarn is actually one of the EU better chars on the Rebel side. Shame that a computer game char beats down easily most of the half-assed KJA "jedi disciples", actually. It just demonstrates the quality of the books.
When Katarn's original story was told in Jedi Knight, it was very entertaining and uh... original. All that Valley of the Jedi, father's letters, etc.

[2000AD]

Hobbie and Janson should really be considered EU characters. They may have a couple of lines in the movie, but it's in the EU where they become serious characters.

Those few lines in the films didn't really give us any insight into their characters and the first author to get his hands on them could have portrayed them just about any way he wished.

[Imperial Overlord]

The Han Solo Trilogy, some of the earliest EU and had some very memorable characters:

Doc, Jessa, and the Outlaw Techs

Gallandro, an uber badass gunslinger

Bollux and Blue Max, droids.

Uhl-Raa-Rashan, reptilian gunslinger

Spray, repo agent (Yes, he tried to repo the Falcon)

Fiona of Llord, earnest, honest, and sarcastic law enforcement official with the Corporate Sector Authority

The caterpillar academic whose name I can't recall from Han Solo and the Lost Legacy.

Xim the Despot, historical figure.

[Old Plympto]

The caterpillar academic whose name I can't recall from Han Solo and the Lost Legacy.

I remember this one... Skynx. When I read JAT with KJA's Skynxnex, I went I remember thinking "What the hell kind of name ripoff was this?"

[Seanm35]

Kyle Katarn? He was a pretty cool EU char, who is apparently cool enough to spawn 3 games and various Graphic Novels. Or Dash Rendar from SotE? He was good enough to get cameo'd into the OT Special Edition.

[FTeik]

Tarfang, Wuluw, Formbi (alright, this one is Zahn) or Aryn Thul from DarkNest come to mind.

[PREDATOR490]

Kyle Katarn? He was a pretty cool EU char, who is apparently cool enough to spawn 3 games and various Graphic Novels. Or Dash Rendar from SotE? He was good enough to get cameo'd into the OT Special Edition.

If Im not mistaken, in the final book of the NJO Kyle Katarn is mentioned by name.

I believe its the Unifying Force that its in. Its only 1 mention of the name amoungst the gathering of Jedi but I found it a little amusing.
By mentioning such characters they are going to make a dig a hole where they have to fit in Kyle Katarn into SW.


As for memorable characters...

The only characters I like are the Xwing series era. Those books were written much better and had a good link between each one since they were written by the same authors at a time when the Empire could still be played as being a threat.

Now, they have to invent random new villians to keep the cycle of "war" going on which inevitably is going to get very old.

[Shadowtraveler]

By mentioning such characters they are going to make a dig a hole where they have to fit in Kyle Katarn into SW.

Not to worry. If Dark Nest has set the standard, expect Kyle Katarn to make 1 or 2 appearences in a book, maybe say a sentence or two if he's lucky, and do something that may seem important, but when you think about it could be have be done by any no-name Jedi.


I never thought NJO was bad myself. It was decent, and I could understand what they were trying to do, but obviously it could have been more....consistant, if you know what I mean.

[FTeik]

They learn. The next story-arc will have only nine novels and be written by three authors only (compare that to the NJO and the twelve authors involved).

[Seanm35]

Why would they need to dig a hole to fit him in? He's not even a major character in the books, and most of the time he's out doing his own thing. He was already fitted in since the first Dark Forces book. He's the one that brought the plans for the First Death Star to the Rebels. They shouldnt have to dig!

[PREDATOR490]

Why would they need to dig a hole to fit him in? He's not even a major character in the books, and most of the time he's out doing his own thing. He was already fitted in since the first Dark Forces book. He's the one that brought the plans for the First Death Star to the Rebels. They shouldnt have to dig!

Taking a game character and making him part of the SW story is going to be a bit of a FUBAR for continuity if they are taking his actions in the games to be his history... Valley of the Jedi, training Mara Jade, beating Jeric, Desann, Tavion, Ragnos, Jaden, being a MASTER at the Jedi Academy.

As for the first Death Star plans... Rebel Dawn had Han Solo's ex-girlfriend being the one who got the plans while they were holding a ground installation.
How does Katarn fit in there ?

[VT-16]

We've figured out three different events leading to Leia getting the plans. The Battle of Toprawa (NEC has it as being the one mentioned in ANH's scroll-text), the Battle of Danuta (Kyle's mission was part of it) and the Death Star Uprising (yes, the BF II mission, it's in the OS databank, so it's canon).

They supplied parts/revised versions/additional info etc.

[dworkin]

We've figured out three different events leading to Leia getting the plans. The Battle of Toprawa (NEC has it as being the one mentioned in ANH's scroll-text), the Battle of Danuta (Kyle's mission was part of it) and the Death Star Uprising (yes, the BF II mission, it's in the OS databank, so it's canon).

They supplied parts/revised versions/additional info etc.

Wasn't part of it DL'd from BitTorrent as well?

It could be that I just don't get the EU. Why does everything published about SW have to occur in the same goddamn continuity? Especially when some of the stories are awful? For instance the FPS and space fighter games. They're shitty stories for the same reason most porn movies have shitty stories. Why oh why do they get included?

[VT-16]

Some get officially dropped, others are accepted but left in obscurity. Some get hilariously extensive retcons (like the Jedi Prince trilogy).