The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-04-16 07:38pm

VT-16 wrote:I think you can kiss any hope of concession from her goodbye forever, no matter what happens next.

I had already given up on that. Karen can believe what she wants--she'll just, always be wrong.

The best I've gotten out of all of this, is that "she doesn't care about the numbers either way", "she didn't make them, she was given them by LFL and tried to make them work", and her defenders admitting the numbers aren't that good/believable, and that they won't try to force people to accept them as "absolute" or anything.

Yeah, it's pretty sad that her defenders have even admitted that the numbers don't make any sense.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-17 03:20am

VT-16 wrote:I think you can kiss any hope of concession from her goodbye forever, no matter what happens next.

Yeah, I think that was pretty clear from the beginning.

VT-16 wrote:The best I've gotten out of all of this, is that "she doesn't care about the numbers either way", "she didn't make them, she was given them by LFL and tried to make them work",

Even if my beef isn't mainly with the numbers, the interpretation I've made out of all this is that she and Kaufman came up with the three million figure and as she has stated, "the article and the numbers were checked and approved by LFL". So, if anything, the fault lies at LFL for approving the number, but I'm not sure if they were aware of her opinion of the Clone Wars as a small scale "brushfire war" about which the population didn't care about. Also, the size of the Droid army had already been established before her retcon.

and her defenders admitting the numbers aren't that good/believable, and that they won't try to force people to accept them as "absolute" or anything.

Yeah, that's good.

VT-16 wrote:Also, a reaffirmation that authors can't get past LFL editors and policy makers, and that "subverting canon" isn't possible. (Which is of course good news, since who's been blamed more of that than Curtis Saxton?)

Whenever McEwok speaks, just flash that.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-17 04:12am

Can you post the quote where she said canon can't be subverted?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-17 04:38am

Jim Raynor wrote:Can you post the quote where she said canon can't be subverted?

That'd be here:
+http://karentraviss.livejournal.com/280 ... 2#t4813972

This is priceless, this guy is really not getting anything about how the canon works and doesn't grasp the arguments:
+http://karentraviss.livejournal.com/280 ... 8#t4891028

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 05:01am

Responded to a new poster (from TFN?) and made a nice, little statement regarding our friend , TMcE:

+http://karentraviss.livejournal.com/280 ... 8#t4891540

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 05:46am

Great, Traviss wants some proof they actually got harassed. Anyone got any sources? I've only ever talked to Saxton, and don't know any of the other authors.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2006-04-17 07:04am

So, let's see:

- She's alienate dand threatened people for their criticism by reacting harshly and throwing insults.. likening them to terrorists and mental defectives.

- She evidently is having disagreements or grudges againt certain authors or editors (that Stradley guy form the DH board doesnt seem fond of her, and she's obviously taken snipes at Curtis.)

- She claims "numbers don't matter." - yet her first book (quite good - I like ti despite her current atttiude) was filled with lots of precise figures (I could quote any number of them).

I seriously wonder how long she can keep this up without starting to look bad to LFL. Normally I don't remember them enjoying this sort of open conflict between the author and fandom... and it doesnt osund as if casual fans are taking too well to her labels and accusations and whatnot.
She could very well ruin her chances to work any further in the SW franchies if thise keeps up, one would think.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 07:18am

She's alienate dand threatened people for their criticism by reacting harshly and throwing insults.. likening them to terrorists and mental defectives.

She claims the harassment of her started when people threw similar insults over her book, and so she responded similiarly to those people. (Hitting others accidently and escalating the matter?)

She evidently is having disagreements or grudges againt certain authors or editors (that Stradley guy form the DH board doesnt seem fond of her, and she's obviously taken snipes at Curtis.)

That's funny, she said right there in the LJ thread she doesn't harbor animosity towards other authors, and she knows/corresponds with Abel G. Pena.

- She claims "numbers don't matter." - yet her first book (quite good - I like ti despite her current atttiude) was filled with lots of precise figures (I could quote any number of them).

And yet in the LJ thread said she got numbers from LFL and was told to "use them" or "make them work". Since she think the majority don't care/have no problem with them either way, she doesn't care about the rest.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-17 07:19am

VT-16 wrote:Responded to a new poster (from TFN?)

Yes, razzy is from TFN. He's a dumbass.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 07:21am

And he made me attack Hodge, which she pounced upon, demanding evidence. Great.

I'm sure he'll notify Hodge about this and then we'll have the fun going (Traviss even threatened to do this, since she argued him on OS)
Another round of idiocy coming up?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-17 09:09am

VT-16 wrote:And yet in the LJ thread said she got numbers from LFL and was told to "use them" or "make them work". Since she think the majority don't care/have no problem with them either way, she doesn't care about the rest.

I've already said this, but yet she has implied elsewhere that the numbers came from her and Kaufman and that LFL approved them.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2006-04-17 09:20am

Mange the Swede wrote:
VT-16 wrote:And yet in the LJ thread said she got numbers from LFL and was told to "use them" or "make them work". Since she think the majority don't care/have no problem with them either way, she doesn't care about the rest.
I've already said this, but yet she has implied elsewhere that the numbers came from her and Kaufman and that LFL approved them.

Her statement also stands in direct conflict with what Kauffman has stated when he told everyone that no numbers could or would be given from LFL in regards to clones. So either she's lying to cover her ass (which seems rather likely at this point) or Kauffman was.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 09:25am

On the LJ thread Kaufman refuted his earlier statement and went with "3 million 3 million 3 million"

And then I thanked him for his earlier statement, regardless of his opinion of it now. :P

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-17 10:29am

VT-16 wrote:Since she think the majority don't care/have no problem with them either way, she doesn't care about the rest.

To be fair, I don't think that the casual reader thinks very much about the figures, at least not to the extent that they're willing to debate about them on messageboards and the like. The story is what important of course, but consistency is important as well IMO. What I think is interesting about this discussion is that even the defenders of the three-million figure thinks it's too low, but Traviss isn't willing to at least admit that some of the arguments for a large number are strong. Instead, the goalposts are shifted and arguments such as "can you count them on screen?" are presented. Heck, it would take 700,000 clones to crew the 1,000 Acclamators that the Republic ordered and an additional sixteen million clones to fill them (unless the Acclamators, whose primary role was to act as troop carriers, went around empty) alone and everything else that has been mentioned...

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 10:33am

I've said my last few arguments on the blog and respectfully bowed out of any further debate there. At this point, both sides have had their say and that's that.

but Traviss isn't willing to at least admit that some of the arguments for a large number are strong

Well, she said she doesn't care that much about them, so I guess that can be percieved as a semi-concession?

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2006-04-17 10:38am

So we're to believe they she received death threats/harassments, yet when it's pointed out other authors have she acts like it's unbelievable without hard evidence. Been proven she exaggerated her death threat (she admitted there was none) all her followers believe it with no explaination but McEwok can do no wrong and would never harrass an author even when proof being posted. I guess on the only good thing from pushing all these issues is we're getting a crapload of material of her contradicting herself and being an ass.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-04-17 12:41pm

Traviss has made death threats against us! Who the hell complains that other people are doing the same thing that she is? And that's being generous and assuming that her unnamed detractors have actually threatened to kill her--something that no one in the original TFN thread even came CLOSE to doing.

Speaking of the original TFN thread, NO ONE was able to bring up an instance of flaming. I'm beginning to think that she's just making up all of these detractors in an effort to save face. This whole thing is really sad.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 12:43pm

I think she mention the GS (Galactic Senate?) as well as TFN.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-17 12:52pm

VT-16 wrote:I think she mention the GS (Galactic Senate?) as well as TFN.

Oh come on! Where did she mention the GS? I'm a regular at the GS and the only person, to my knowledge, to have discussed the issue with her is me and Kane Starkiller and she wouldn't even respond to him (that's out of five thousand registered members). If anyone can say that I've (or Kane) been rude or anything like that towards her in that thread... That'd surprise me.

(and don't start up any new discussions there on this subject) +http://www.galacticsenate.com/index.php?showtopic=14968

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2006-04-17 01:18pm

VT-16 wrote:On the LJ thread Kaufman refuted his earlier statement and went with "3 million 3 million 3 million"

And then I thanked him for his earlier statement, regardless of his opinion of it now.

So then Kauffman was either lying before, or lying now. Either way they're both pathetic in the attempt to cover their own asses instead of owning up to a completely stupid mistake in the first place. Far be it of us to point out it was only called the Clone "Wars" after all. Last I checked, it wasn't the Clone "Skirmishes" or the Clone "Chess Match" or some such. And I'm honestly tired of her doublespeak. "Oh, I don't really care about numbers, but I'll lie and distort as much as possible to defend an absurdly low number that even my fans don't support, but at the same time I don't really care about numbers!" There aren't enough rolling-eyes smilies to demonstrate how I feel about this, or about her.

And agreed with MoO. I was in the original thread over at TFN as well, and there was nothing even close to a death threat mentioned. Either she's lying out her ass again in an effort to throw everyone off the topic, or she got it through some personal emails. I've never seen anything public.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 01:21pm

Apparently, she didn't get any death threats, or something. I really don't care that much to go through the thread anytime soon to look it up.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-17 02:08pm

You don't need to bother, there's not a single insult there.

Anyway, I'm over and done with this. We have OOU sources etc. that supports larger troop figures and I think that everyone can rationalize this for themselves. I do however hope to see some retcon to this later.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 02:49pm

+http://karentraviss.livejournal.com/280 ... 8#t4901268

Now she's getting on my nerves.

Do not hotlink Karen's blogs.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2006-04-17 03:01pm

How is it possible she is not fired after behaving like she has?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-17 03:40pm

I can't believe she's arguing SW writers have no say in the story-process. is this how people are going to excuse their stuff from now on?