Suicide...

[FireNexus]

What are your feelings about those who commit suicide? I find that a large number of people have the idea that those who do so are selfish first and foremost, and have no regard for how it will effect others. In my mind, that way of regarding those who commit suicide is akin to being angry at a schizophrenic for talking to the grass. Granted, a suicidal person has control of their actions and the ability to rationalize or reason, but the very fact that they committed suicide in the first place hints that they are not in full control of their faculties, and certainly incapable of making correct decisions.

Of course, I'm also sympathetic as a sufferer of clinical depression. I sort of can see how one can be led down that path. How one can suffer enough in their own head to take such final measures. Thankfully, I've never been that far, but I need to know: Am I in the wrong on this one, or is there some middle ground that can be located?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Granted, a suicidal person has control of their actions and the ability to rationalize or reason, but the very fact that they committed suicide in the first place hints that they are not in full control of their faculties, and certainly incapable of making correct decisions.

Yes, suicidal persons are not in full control of their faculties. As I understand it, the desire for suicide occurs when their pain exceeds the resources for coping with that pain for a significant extended period of time. It's easy to imagine what that can do to someone's ability to think clearly. For the most part, I think viewing those who are suicidal with anything other than sympathy or empathy is quite callous. These people either have to find a way to reduce their pain or increase their resources to cope with it survive suicide.

[Broomstick]

I don't think all suicides are the same. To say that suicidal people are "selfish" or "rational" or "irrational" is to lump a lot of different people with differing circumstances into one pot. The terminally ill 93 year old dying of bone cancer is a different case than the physically healthy 18 year old who puts a shotgun to his head which is different than a mother who drowns her children in the bathtub then fails to succesfully off herself.

Yes, I think there's typically a mental illness component, but it's not the only factor at work. I mean, not everyone with suicidal impulses even attempts suicide, much less succeeds.

For the most part, I think viewing those who are suicidal with anything other than sympathy or empathy is quite callous.

Fuck you. Suicide is incredibly painful to those left behind. Grief and anger are entirely appropriate emotions. If you catch 'em before they actually kill themselves fear isn't out of line, either. Callous is denying the living their own emotions.

Which isn't to say you can't have sympathy and empathy as well - even at the same time. Just that saying those are the only appropriate reactions is out of line.

[Seggybop]

Self-preservation is the most basic instinct for any living creature. I don't think there can be any clearer symptom of insanity than the lack of it.

[haas mark]

Ay ay ay... I have a lot of varying things to say on the subject of suicide, but only because I've attempted it myself in the past.

Suicide, as far as I have gathered, is, at best, a frustration that is generally (but not always) a permanent solution to a temporary problem. There are times where mentally ill people (such as myself - I'm bipolar, among other things) just hit a point of such severe depression/insanity that they do not feel that they can handle the stresses of whatever is going on at the time.

I can't really say it's selfish or not, because selfishness implies an action that is gainful to the person, and killing oneself is far from that. Thoughtless, irrational, I could agree with, but not selfish. It is possible, though, I think, that there is some "middle ground" with those that are thinking along the lines of suicide, but I generally think that only really can be understood a lot by people who have made failed attempts at it. Of course, that, I could most certainly be wrong on, as well.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

For the most part, I think viewing those who are suicidal with anything other than sympathy or empathy is quite callous.

Fuck you. Suicide is incredibly painful to those left behind. Grief and anger are entirely appropriate emotions. If you catch 'em before they actually kill themselves fear isn't out of line, either. Callous is denying the living their own emotions.

Which isn't to say you can't have sympathy and empathy as well - even at the same time. Just that saying those are the only appropriate reactions is out of line.

I don't understand the hostility. I don't advocate denying the living their emotions. I am basing my statement about sympathetic or empathetic reactions on an outsider perspective as it is difficult to feel grief or a high level anger for someone you never knew. The point I was trying to get at was I don't see how anyone can justify viewing suicidal people as selfish. That lack of acknowledgement of the pain a suicidal person goes through is the callousness I'm talking about. But of course, for someone you do know, it is obviously incredibly painful and grief and anger are appropriate emotions.

[Broomstick]

I don't understand the hostility.

Perhaps for you suicide is an abstract notion. Have you ever known a suicide? Have you ever witnessed a suicide?

I am basing my statement about sympathetic or empathetic reactions on an outsider perspective as it is difficult to feel grief or a high level anger for someone you never knew.

I never knew the young man who sat on the tracks waiting for a passenger train to come around a bend at 80+ mph - my "introduction" to him was when bits of him splattered across the windows of the train. Kinda ruined everybody's day to one degree or another. Yeah, that can kind of piss you off, gross you out, and give you a whole bunch of other emotions.

Then there's things like the people jumping to the death from the WTC on 9/11... What a horrible choice to make: death by fire or death by gravity. Whole different set of emotions there.

But of course, for someone you do know, it is obviously incredibly painful and grief and anger are appropriate emotions.

How kind of you to allow that.

Granted this is a bit of a hot-button issue for me, but you're coming across as patronizing.

I don't think you have to personally know someone to be upset by a suicide. As it happens, although I have sympathy and empathy and understanding that the suicider is in incredible mental anguish at the time of the act, I can also get pretty pissed off at people like jumpers and assholes who blow their heads off with a shotgun under circumstances practically guaranteeing the person who discovers them is their six year old daughter and shit like that.

[haas mark]

Broomstick -

I think in your last paragraph what you're getting into is not suicide itself, but the circumstances around the body of the person having committed suicide. That wasn't, I don't believe, the point of the thread, but honestly, if someone is going to be a bit ... careless, so to speak ... in that regard, then it's understandable where you're coming from. However, that's not the case of all suicides.

However, Pint0 wasn't trying to be patronizing at first (at least, the way it came off to me), and I don't believe he was trying to say that the survivors should not be left their grief or whatnot, because that's just a fact of life. You, on the other hand, took it wrong and said, "Fuck you," assuming the opposite.

All fine and dandy this isn't a good point for you, but that's no reason to fly off the handle for no apparent reason, either.

Regardless, though, one has to consider everything that might happen in terms of suicide. Some people put more thought and planning into it than others (thus leading to traumatized children and whatnot, in some cases). Some people are more calculating, knowing that what they will do won't mean anything for at least some time, until their body is found.

All in all, though, Broomstick, I think maybe you should back off Pint0 a bit, because a sore subject isn't something over which you need to get your nerves bent out of shape.

[Pick]

Also, I believe that the selfishness label is highly unfair. That is an outsider's objective perspective, not that of a person who is so tortured that they would actually wish to cut off the end of their lives (notably those of such faiths who believe that such action is irredeemable sin.)

I recall talking to one of my friends who attempted suicide. His father is a banker who he rarely sees (never married his mother), whereas his mother is a going-nowhere poor single mom. His father constantly complains about having to pay child support, and his mother grouses about the cost of sustaining my friend even to this day (which I have personally witnessed.) When he attempted suicide, one of his driving reasons was that he believed he was helping both of his parents. He has never been a particularly good student or very capable, so he seemed to have the twisted perspective that the best thing he could do for them was relieve them of his financial burden.

I don't consider that selfish, only tragic.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Perhaps for you suicide is an abstract notion. Have you ever known a suicide? Have you ever witnessed a suicide?

Suicide is not an entirely abstract notion to me but no, I have never witnessed a suicide. I have been approached, however, by friends who have confessed to me of their suicidal thoughts.

I never knew the young man who sat on the tracks waiting for a passenger train to come around a bend at 80+ mph - my "introduction" to him was when bits of him splattered across the windows of the train. Kinda ruined everybody's day to one degree or another. Yeah, that can kind of piss you off, gross you out, and give you a whole bunch of other emotions.

"Knowing" the person is beside the point. That particular suicide was a personal event for you (and hence not seen from an outsider point of view), which isn't exactly what I was talking about.

Then there's things like the people jumping to the death from the WTC on 9/11... What a horrible choice to make: death by fire or death by gravity. Whole different set of emotions there.

Yes, that can fire off a whole set of emotions though not all are necessarily directed at the people jumping. I felt a lot of anger and frustration during 9/11 but most of that was towards the event and the unknown perpetrators of the event at the time. I mostly felt a lot of sympathy and sorrow for those who jumped but I couldn't feel grief at a personal level, at least not at the same level as the family members or friends who were left behind.

But of course, for someone you do know, it is obviously incredibly painful and grief and anger are appropriate emotions.

How kind of you to allow that.

Granted this is a bit of a hot-button issue for me, but you're coming across as patronizing.

No, I'm not trying to be patronizing. I was merely conceding that you had a point.

I don't think you have to personally know someone to be upset by a suicide. As it happens, although I have sympathy and empathy and understanding that the suicider is in incredible mental anguish at the time of the act, I can also get pretty pissed off at people like jumpers and assholes who blow their heads off with a shotgun under circumstances practically guaranteeing the person who discovers them is their six year old daughter and shit like that.

I would agree that assholes who blow their heads off with a shotgun under circumstances that guarantee their six year old daughter to discover them is not exactly the most ethical manner to do it. However, how often does that occur? Not to be nitpicky but my statement was more generalized and I did say "for the most part" as an acknowledgement to special case scenarios. I don't have any statistics to back that up other than my anecdotal experience since I don't hear of that kind of case happening as often as the other typical suicide cases so I could be wrong.

To reiterate my intended point, classifying suicidal persons as selfish with little sympathy or empathy is very callous.

[Zero]

Personally, I think the 'selfish' label is something that can only be ascribed to rational minds. I know that when I tried it when I was young, I wasn't thinking about anything that would happen afterwards, I just wanted out. When I think about it today, it's still a desire to get out, to leave life behind. I rarely think about it in terms of who'll be hurt if I'm gone, although if I'm that depressed, I'm generally assuming already that everyone I know considers me a nuisance anyways. Besides that, it's barely something I can hold on to even thinking about when I'm considering it. My entire world becomes anguish and sorrow, and there's no damned trigger, no damned reason, which means there's not even anything to fix, and no way to fix it. I can't imagine anyone else being hurt by the loss of my pathetic, pointless life enough for their collective pain to be more than mine at that moment.

It isn't a rational decision, at least for anyone a bit like me, which is, I imagine, a decent portion of all suicides. It's not done by people that can rationally weigh out the goods and bads of their actions, it's done by people who are so depressed that they can't bring themselves to keep dealing with their own lives.

Even, to borrow Broomstick's hypothetical, it's a 93 year old woman with terminal bone cancer, the woman is still doing it because the pain overrides all reason. The mother who drowns her own children is also a wee bit ill in the head. People who are either that crazy, or in that much pain, aren't entirely in control of their actions, so I'm going to stick with Pint0 and say that people who give no attempt at understanding why someone might do it before getting pissed are fuckheads. And no, that doesn't mean I think anyone who gets angry is an idiot, I just don't think that they probably entirely understand the situation, just how it effects them.

And before anyone asks me, no, suicide isn't an abstract idea to me. I've tried it (failed, of course), seen it, and helped friends away from it.

[FireNexus]

Personally, I think the 'selfish' label is something that can only be ascribed to rational minds. I know that when I tried it when I was young, I wasn't thinking about anything that would happen afterwards, I just wanted out. When I think about it today, it's still a desire to get out, to leave life behind. I rarely think about it in terms of who'll be hurt if I'm gone, although if I'm that depressed, I'm generally assuming already that everyone I know considers me a nuisance anyways. Besides that, it's barely something I can hold on to even thinking about when I'm considering it. My entire world becomes anguish and sorrow, and there's no damned trigger, no damned reason, which means there's not even anything to fix, and no way to fix it. I can't imagine anyone else being hurt by the loss of my pathetic, pointless life enough for their collective pain to be more than mine at that moment.

Like you were reading my mind on a bad day, or a bad week. Scary...

[Nova Andromeda]

--I would just like to point out a few things.
1. When a person intentionally ends their life their suffering has overcome their will to live. Think about that. Think of all the reasons you have to live. Think about basic survival instinct (no small motive). When someone decides to end their life, the reasons they have to live are either entirely missing or out weighed by other things and their survival instinct has been overcome by sufferring.
2. Any discussion about rational or irrational reasons for ending one's life is mute in the end. A purposeful action is driven by a person's desires. You can bitch and moan all you like about how the person should do x, y, or z because of e, f, or g, but in the end you aren't calling the shots (assumming you aren't forcing them to do x, y, or z). The best you can do is convince a person that doing what you want (in this case living) will result in them getting what they want (a reason to live and an end to the sufferring).
3. Those people that think "enders" are selfish should take a good long look in the mirror. Clearly things aren't all that bad for them (the complainers). They probably still have reasons to live and in any event it hasn't gotten so bad that their survival instinct has been overcome. Despite this they selfishly want another person to live in misery so bad that death is preferable. Even worse, the suffering caused by the death is almost never sufficient by itself to cause a person to end their life (i.e, the living still have it better than the dead person had it while still alive).
4. If you are really serious about reducing suicide rates then put your money where your mouth is and make life worth living for those less fortunate (and I don't mean just monetarily). However, sometimes there isn't anything that can be done. In such cases, one should try to explore all options for the suffering individual, but in the end should respect their wishes and not make things more miserable than need be.

[haas mark]

3. Those people that think "enders" are selfish should take a good long look in the mirror. Clearly things aren't all that bad for them (the complainers). They probably still have reasons to live and in any event it hasn't gotten so bad that their survival instinct has been overcome. Despite this they selfishly want another person to live in misery so bad that death is preferable. Even worse, the suffering caused by the death is almost never sufficient by itself to cause a person to end their life (i.e, the living still have it better than the dead person had it while still alive).

That is probably one of the best points on selfish vs. suicide I've ever seen.

[The Silence and I]

It should be remembered that depression makes people think differently. A "normal" person will think they are responsible for their successes, and tend to make excuses for their failures. A person with depression will do exactly the opposite. They will make excuses for their successes, and lay the blame for any failures squarely on their own shoulders.

Think about that. That is a fundamental shift in thinking! Remember, people with depression have a disorder, they cannot control their emotions. Imagine going through life unable to feel anything but sad. As a consequence you cannot enjoy life--it does not matter what you experience, or what you do, it will not give you joy. It can become hard to maintain relationships of any kind, it can become impossible to make descisions. You might loose the will to leave bed, or go to work or class because you simply do not see the point. No matter what you do or how you do it you are sad, so why do much, why live?

So yes, I am sympathetic to those who commit suicide. I am also sympathetic to those who survive another's suicide.* Excepting strange cases suicide is caused by a mental disorder resulting in a shift in basic cognition and emotion. A seriously depressed person has very limited control, and it is hard for me to blame them for what they might do to end their anguish. As someone said it is sort of like getting upset at the schizophrenic for talking to the grass--pity that person instead.


* I can understand strong emotions on the parts of those who have witnessed suicides, especially when there isn't much forsight involved and a little kid finds the body. But the underlying condition leading to that action--however sloppily made--is worth my sympathy.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Having been suicidal on more than one occasion, and coming from a bloodline that seems to emphasize depression and suicidal tendencies (two of my relatives have attempted suicide, and at least five have been diagnosed with clinical depression), I can say from experience that selfishness has little to nothing to do with it.

For me, it's a complete shutdown of the rational side of the brain. The last time I had suicidal urges was when, within the same week, a wheel fell off my car, and I lost my wallet and six hundred dollars of cash (which, coincedentially, was going to pay off the car-repairs). Basically, the thought of being stuck in the middle of fucking nowhere, with no transportation, with my parents, whom I can be civil with on a good day, combined with the fact that I already suffer from cyclical depression and now seemed just a good a time as any to trigger an episode of it...pushed me off the deep end.

Basically, I was lucky enough to attend a get-together that very weekend with a good deal of friends. Several days worth of phone conversations, them going out of their way to come to my house and get me out of there for a while, and other things, that helped me pull through.

It's not rational in the slightest. I remained fully aware that no matter how bad things got with my personal life, home life, etc., death was not a reasonable option. But despite that, my mind seemed convinced that ending the pain now would be preferable to slogging through it.

[petesampras]

Think about that. That is a fundamental shift in thinking! Remember, people with depression have a disorder, they cannot control their emotions. Imagine going through life unable to feel anything but sad. As a consequence you cannot enjoy life--it does not matter what you experience, or what you do, it will not give you joy. It can become hard to maintain relationships of any kind, it can become impossible to make descisions. You might loose the will to leave bed, or go to work or class because you simply do not see the point. No matter what you do or how you do it you are sad, so why do much, why live?

That, I'm sure, is true. However, factors which influence someone to suicide are not just due to differences in internal reasoning. Someone who is married and successful, I'm pretty sure, would be far less likely to kill themselves than someone who is single and unsuccessful. Different people have different qualities of life, partly depending on their outlook and partly depending on their circumstances.

[FireNexus]

That, I'm sure, is true. However, factors which influence someone to suicide are not just due to differences in internal reasoning. Someone who is married and successful, I'm pretty sure, would be far less likely to kill themselves than someone who is single and unsuccessful. Different people have different qualities of life, partly depending on their outlook and partly depending on their circumstances.

Depression, however, can push one to circumstances that encourage suicide. A person who believes they're useless and will never succeed seems far more likely to me to be single and unsuccesful.

[Broomstick]

Perhaps for you suicide is an abstract notion. Have you ever known a suicide? Have you ever witnessed a suicide?

Suicide is not an entirely abstract notion to me but no, I have never witnessed a suicide. I have been approached, however, by friends who have confessed to me of their suicidal thoughts.

A different situation. Granted, it's still on the spectrum of "touched by suicide" but at the other end from where I've been.

"Knowing" the person is beside the point. That particular suicide was a personal event for you (and hence not seen from an outsider point of view), which isn't exactly what I was talking about.

You said viewing them with anything other than sympathy was callous. I disagree. Suicide in an of itself is bad enough - when it is done in such a manner as to potentially endanger others, seriously disrupt life for strangers, and so forth it is entirely legitimate for those affected by the suicide to feel less than sympathic. I can understand someone is in mental agony the likes of which I never want to experience myself, but I can also be mad as hell at the mess they left behind. That's not being "callous", that's being human and honest about my emotions.

I would agree that assholes who blow their heads off with a shotgun under circumstances that guarantee their six year old daughter to discover them is not exactly the most ethical manner to do it.

I'm not sure someone who has gotten to the point of actually killing themselves is thinking about ethics. Well, I actually know of a succesful suicide who thought about the ethics of offing herself (she mentioned it in her note), but not all do. And the jackasses who commit murder-suicide aren't content to merely kill themselves, but feel a need to someone else with them.

So some of the them probably do consider the ethics... and others are so far gone and lost in their personal pain they don't think and don't consider all the consequences and ramnifications of their action. Well, they aren't functioning on a normal or rational level (with very rare exception). But there's no question in my mind that some suicides, and some methods of suicide, are worse than others.

However, how often does that occur?

I know of three people who were the finder-of-body in just such cirucmstances (though only one was as young as six), plus one other who found a relative hanging. Seems to be a significant number of the people I know who are "bystanders" at suicides.

Sometimes, placing one's body in a specific location so the odds of a particular person finding it is probably done to cause further pain to that specific person. Sometimes the person is just a careless, thoughtless asshole so hellbent on killing him/herself that others just aren't brought into the where-to-kill-myself equation.

I don't have any statistics to back that up other than my anecdotal experience since I don't hear of that kind of case happening as often as the other typical suicide cases so I could be wrong.

It probably doesn't happen as often - but so what? Finding one's father's headless body sitting on the toilet with his skull and brains painting the walls and ceiling doesn't have to be a common event to induce horror. It does happen to people.

And what the hell is a "typical" suicide, anyhow? There are several reasons people kill themselves. In my mind, only a very, very few could possibly be justified.

To reiterate my intended point, classifying suicidal persons as selfish with little sympathy or empathy is very callous.

They ARE selfish! But then, so is someone seriously ill who requires round the clock nursing. With great illness/injury/pain the individual stops thinking about others and focuses in on his/her own needs. Or, in other cases, lashes out at others. But when someone has a serious physical problem we don't go "Oh, poor baby" and leave them to suffer - we try to help them. And if help comes too late, or it doesn't work, we feel sad.

Likewise, the suicide is selfish - because his/her own pain and suffering is so overwhelming he/she is no longer capable of considering others, or of considering them in normal, rational, and ethical ways. Selfishness is a symptom of suicidal impulses just as despair is a symptom.

There are people who, when seriously ill, turn into unholy bastards. And there are ill people who are virtually saints, apologizing for "inconvenicing" others. Likewise, there are suicides who are, to put it bluntly, completely inconsiderate of others, or even trying to cause pain to others (like Mr.-Waiting-For-The-Train) and others who set their affairs in order and put a shower curtain over the bed before swallowing a lethal dose of sleeping pills so the clean-up crew to come after will have less of a messy job to do.

It's like the old saw that suicide is a cry for help - sometimes it is, other times the person is determined to die. Trying to talk about a "typical" suicide is over-simplifying the matter.

[Chris OFarrell]

Self-preservation is the most basic instinct for any living creature. I don't think there can be any clearer symptom of insanity than the lack of it.

Sooo someone who jumps onto a grenade to save other peoples lives is insane?

[Broomstick]

I think in your last paragraph what you're getting into is not suicide itself, but the circumstances around the body of the person having committed suicide.

But that's an inseparable part of suicide - with rare exception, someone is going to find the body and have to deal with it. I can understand that the person commiting such an act is not thinking about such things (usually), but for those left behind it's an inseparable part of the whole thing, and something that must be dealt with.

However, that's not the case of all suicides.

True enough. However, it is the case in a significant number of suicides. Ignoring the effect of such scenarios on survivors and bystanders is a pretty callous attitude towards the living.

[haas mark]

I think in your last paragraph what you're getting into is not suicide itself, but the circumstances around the body of the person having committed suicide.

But that's an inseparable part of suicide - with rare exception, someone is going to find the body and have to deal with it. I can understand that the person commiting such an act is not thinking about such things (usually), but for those left behind it's an inseparable part of the whole thing, and something that must be dealt with.

I'm not going to disagree with you there, because that is true, but you make it sound like everyone that attempts suicide is somehow trying to benefit themselves. More often than not, that is NOT the case. Likewise, it is NOT selfish for someone who does not realize what they are doing, in your example to Pint0 about people who need round-the-clock nursing, and if you ask me, that's highly presumptuous and fucked up for you to say, if you ask me.

Even so, you have yet to explain how this shows to be "selfish."

self·ish Audio pronunciation of "selfish" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (slfsh)
adj.

1. Concerned chiefly or only with oneself: “Selfish men were... trying to make capital for themselves out of the sacred cause of human rights” (Maria Weston Chapman).
2. Arising from, characterized by, or showing selfishness: a selfish whim.

Show me how the people that aren't concerned over their own well-being fit into that definition of selfish, though.

However, that's not the case of all suicides.

True enough. However, it is the case in a significant number of suicides. Ignoring the effect of such scenarios on survivors and bystanders is a pretty callous attitude towards the living.

So is emphasizing it. It isn't all about the people that lived.

[Broomstick]

Self-preservation is the most basic instinct for any living creature. I don't think there can be any clearer symptom of insanity than the lack of it.

Sooo someone who jumps onto a grenade to save other peoples lives is insane?

That's a different case than what is normally thought of as suicide, and it has to do with the motivation. In the case of the soldier-throws-himsef-on-greanade-to-save-comrades, the motivation is to save lives. Granted, none of those lives are his, but it's a clear case of self-sacrifice for the benefit of others. That sort of altruism is related to parents sacrificing for their children, or any family member exerting/sacrificing themselves for an extended family, or a person risking their life to provide some benefit for a tribe or other social unit. And if there was an alternative means to save those lives that would not result in the death of the solider in question it is quite likely he'd opt for it. It's not that he wants to die, it's that he alternative to his death is something he finds more horrible/intolerable than his own personal extinction.

Suicide from despair, however, has a different goal in mind - the pre-meditated destruction of life. 180 degrees apart. In fact, the suicide-from-despair/depression may be so intent on taking his own life he takes others with him by accident.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Suicide from despair, however, has a different goal in mind - the pre-meditated destruction of life. 180 degrees apart. In fact, the suicide-from-despair/depression may be so intent on taking his own life he takes others with him by accident.

Despite having considered the act myself briefly a few times and even talking a close friend out of practically OD'ing because of an abusive boyfriend, I've come to hate the act of suicide myself. But what really gets me, what I really find horrific, is the rare case now and then when they do take another life with them. If your life is so miserable that you see death as the only release, then I'm not going to stop you if you feel that is the only option; simply voice my concerns. Whatever you do, do NOT even go there with regards to endangering others.

The event I think of as I type this deals with a guy who, not a couple of years ago, parked his car on a level crossing. The resulting collision between car and train killed more than the prick at the wheel on the lines. I don't know anyone who wouldn't condemn that guy for such a cowardly fucking act.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

A different situation. Granted, it's still on the spectrum of "touched by suicide" but at the other end from where I've been.

That and I've experienced some trauma in my life that made me consider it seriously for a brief moment. Thankfully it was brief but it's given me an understanding for many that experience it for a longer period of time.

You said viewing them with anything other than sympathy was callous. I disagree. Suicide in an of itself is bad enough - when it is done in such a manner as to potentially endanger others, seriously disrupt life for strangers, and so forth it is entirely legitimate for those affected by the suicide to feel less than sympathic. I can understand someone is in mental agony the likes of which I never want to experience myself, but I can also be mad as hell at the mess they left behind. That's not being "callous", that's being human and honest about my emotions.

Anger may not be callous but for many cases, not entirely warranted. Granted it's understandable to be upset at someone if they purposely made their suicide a spectacle or a giant mess, the "typical" suicide (if it can be called typical at all) I was referring to is the situation where the person does not consider such factors. Someone who does a reprehensible act, even under conditions that strongly encourage that act, can be blamed and even condemned for making their choice assuming that this person had the proper rational faculties to judge the situation and, despite of that, chose the wrong decision. However, how is a seriously suicidal person rational at all? How can you be angry at a person who obviously had no real control over themselves?

They ARE selfish! But then, so is someone seriously ill who requires round the clock nursing. With great illness/injury/pain the individual stops thinking about others and focuses in on his/her own needs. Or, in other cases, lashes out at others. But when someone has a serious physical problem we don't go "Oh, poor baby" and leave them to suffer - we try to help them. And if help comes too late, or it doesn't work, we feel sad.

Likewise, the suicide is selfish - because his/her own pain and suffering is so overwhelming he/she is no longer capable of considering others, or of considering them in normal, rational, and ethical ways. Selfishness is a symptom of suicidal impulses just as despair is a symptom.

When one claims that they are selfish, I presume they're implying that they are intentionally self-centered. If you want to be semantically particular, you could argue that a suicidal person is selfish in that their irrationality will lead them to think of nothing other than removing their pain they are experiencing just like if a person was on the brink of starving to death, their immediate and only thought is to remove their pain by eating. Hence they give no thought to anything else, including other people. Still, I don't see how that should change the overall sentiment towards suicidal people if they cannot be blamed for acting "selfishingly" and thinking they way do.

It's like the old saw that suicide is a cry for help - sometimes it is, other times the person is determined to die. Trying to talk about a "typical" suicide is over-simplifying the matter.

Well, crying for help and being determined to die aren't necessarily mutually exclusive (They can see dying as the "help" they are crying for). "Typical" was probably the incorrect word to use to describe what I was speaking of though I suppose I personally feel that most of the anger generated from suicide should be directed towards the causes of such circumstances that make people suicidal rather than the people themselves since they had little control once they became suicidal.