Been a while

[Admiral Johnason]

I know that it has been better than three years since I posted and better late than never so, hear goes...

When I first joined, I was in high school and didn't know an Imperial Mark I from a Mark II. I said a lot of stupid things and I fully apologize for my stupidity. I should not have posted until I knew better and most of the older posters were right to tear me a new hole. I was wrong about a great many things.

I am now working on my two BA's in Political Science and Psychology in my second year of college. Techniaclly I am a junior with the 25 extra hours I have. However, my girlfriend is a fantasy/anime fan and I have been tuned towards an anime v SW debate for some time (with a good number of wins under my belt.)

I now feel that I am able to handle the STvSW debate with maturity and intelligence. I admit to having been a pretentious little ass for my first term and I with to end my self imposed exile with the hope of actually contributing something to the community. I admit that my science is shaky and cannot contribute there, but my knowledge of politics and history has grown with my studies, so that is where I will focus.

I am also and now fully in the SW camp and hold no affection to ST as I felt Enterprise and DS9 demonstrate such massive industrial and logistal problems in the Federation that they would be laughable when compared with almost any Star Wars nation (this has been known for a great time.) I am now interest in the bureaucracy of the governments in this dabate and how do the economies handle the strain of war (or lack of in the case of the Federation.)

I know that the Empire is a facist powerhouse with enough resources to crush almost anything in it's path and the Alliance's application of deception and mobilitiy allow for quick adaptation and duribility. This does not mean that I am unwilling to learn. I am now able to take critism and want to interact with fellow fans who are curious about the subjet of SW v ST.

[Darth Lucifer]

Welcome back from the Dark Side.

[Darth Crubus]

No.

Not welcome back from the Dark Side.

Welcome to the Dark Side.

Jedi Master Yoda: "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering".

Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine: "Your hate has made you powerful".

Welcome back to the cynical Warsie Club.

[Admiral Johnason]

I just want to hammer down that I ma back for the politics of the SW v ST debate even the stratagies involved in their operation and in their military actions. I am not going to step into the science debate ever again.

[Darth Wong]

Well, if you're studying historical and political subjects, at least I would presume you don't subscribe to that idiotic "they would fight to the death" wankfest style of argument common to youngster fanboys. I am so sick of seeing kiddies wank about people "fighting to the last man" or some other such furious-wanker nonsense.

[brianeyci]

I try mentioning that "they wouldn't fight to the death" with the 900 billion casualties figure and derive a reasonable population of trillions of Federation citizens, and some morons don't accept it. So it's not just fanboys, just stupid people.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

I try mentioning that "they wouldn't fight to the death" with the 900 billion casualties figure and derive a reasonable population of trillions of Federation citizens, and some morons don't accept it. So it's not just fanboys, just stupid people.

Brian

Either that or you just leap to the idiotic notion that this figure was based upon a thorough analysis rather than something some onscreen character pulled out of his ass, perhaps based on precisely the same logic we're talking about. But nooooo, no one would ever do that in a sci-fi show even though you just admitted people are capable of it in real-life.

[brianeyci]

Either that or you just leap to the idiotic notion that this figure was based upon a thorough analysis rather than something some onscreen character pulled out of his ass, perhaps based on precisely the same logic we're talking about. But nooooo, no one would ever do that in a sci-fi show even though you just admitted people are capable of it in real-life.

Well I guess you're right, they could be pulling the number out of their ass. They were mentally challenged.

I usually give characters the benefit of the doubt unless there's reason to doubt them though. Bashir was there and he would have corrected them, and he wasn't insane. Sisko heard the number too and he didn't go what the fuck.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

Either that or you just leap to the idiotic notion that this figure was based upon a thorough analysis rather than something some onscreen character pulled out of his ass, perhaps based on precisely the same logic we're talking about. But nooooo, no one would ever do that in a sci-fi show even though you just admitted people are capable of it in real-life.

Well I guess you're right, they could be pulling the number out of their ass. They were mentally challenged.

I usually give characters the benefit of the doubt unless there's reason to doubt them though. Bashir was there and he would have corrected them, and he wasn't insane. Sisko heard the number too and he didn't go what the fuck.

Brian

These are the same retards who stood there smiling when someone said that there was a device that could alter the laws of probability, dipshit. I'm sick of morons such as yourself claiming that something must be a valid claim just because no one onscreen blasted the person saying it. No one blasted Data for his "gigawatts per second" bullshit either. They probably all immediately knew that he was referring to a "fight to the death" scenario and didn't bother saying anything because it was not important to the point of their conversation.

[brianeyci]

Conceded.

I guess the context always counts. If there's any suspicion of exagerration or incorrectness within the universe's laws, it's probably bullshit. For example if someone said he could travel to a different part of the galaxy in x seconds, if this was the beginning of an SF story (as in the laws of the universe haven't been well defined yet) I wouldn't automatically discount it, but if there was evidence somewhere else his figure was wrong or a reason for him to lie or exagerrate, even any small reason, I should throw it out.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

In the case of this conversation, it is particularly noteworthy that the actual number was of no real importance to the subject. You could probably interpret it as evidence that the population of the whole Federation is 900 billion or higher, but it is a HUGE stretch to bundle in assumptions with it and then conclude that it must be many times higher.

[NecronLord]

Something, politically, that irritates me is the assumption that only the bad guys are militristic in a lot of writing, like TNG, or the SW:EU. The New Republic would be so much cooler if when someone (Daala) showed up with three star destroyers, it sent three Home-1 class ships to go and kick their teeth out straight away. Or instead of being crippled by bickering (because we know, that's what real democracies always do when an external threat appears, as opposed to rallying round) when the Vong showed up, they'd gone out to the rim and started kicking ass. The (TNG, TOS appeared to be about right in defence orientation, look at Kirk's reaction to the attack in The Arena) Federation really ought to take defence more seriously, look at its neighbors.

[Darth Wong]

That's a good point. There's a certain Disney-fied nature to modern sci-fi writing, and it runs deeper than half-assed characters like Jar-Jar Binks.

[Cao Cao]

I see it as a rather irritating cliche about how a truly enlightened society will always "turn the other cheek" first. That militarism of any sort is something for bad, barbarous regimes.
It's taken to even worse extremes in things such as Gundam Wing and it's ridiculous "total pacifism" angle.

[Noble Ire]

Something, politically, that irritates me is the assumption that only the bad guys are militristic in a lot of writing, like TNG, or the SW:EU. The New Republic would be so much cooler if when someone (Daala) showed up with three star destroyers, it sent three Home-1 class ships to go and kick their teeth out straight away.

Oddly enough, thats exactly what happens in Jedi Academy (the game). Tavion takes her Star Destroyer to Korriban, fails in her Sith-wannabe plot, and her ship is promptly dispatched by a trio of Mon Cal cruisers that simply jump out of hyperspace and blow it to pieces, no questions asked.

Or instead of being crippled by bickering (because we know, that's what real democracies always do when an external threat appears, as opposed to rallying round) when the Vong showed up, they'd gone out to the rim and started kicking ass.

That is a theme in the NJO, actually; the experienced members of the military fighting against the crushing deliberations in the Senate for authorization to go out and do something about the invasion, although it takes the loss of the capital world for them to actually get anywhere. It could have been handled better in the books, though.

[NecronLord]

It's a sort of quasi-Christian ethic that doesn't make much sense. If you shoot at Kirk's ship, unless you're absolutely overwhelmingly powerful, as in TMP, he's likely to retaliate until you're destroyed or surrender. Picard is, on the other hand, vastly more reluctant to use force. The thing is, turning the other cheek is far from a valid approach to international affairs - appeasement ring a bell?

[Darth Wong]

Ah yes, the "target their weapons array" line which is so common in Star Trek. It's only OK to shoot at weapons.

[NecronLord]

Oddly enough, thats exactly what happens in Jedi Academy (the game). Tavion takes her Star Destroyer

Arg. She wasn't taken into custody? GAARGH. Now if Katarn had just excecuted her, or cut her limbs off and left her to Lando's guys, she'd no longer be a problem, no...

That is a theme in the NJO, actually;

I know. And it's a retarded and unrealistic theme.

[Cao Cao]

Oddly enough, thats exactly what happens in Jedi Academy (the game). Tavion takes her Star Destroyer

Arg. She wasn't taken into custody? GAARGH. Now if Katarn had just excecuted her, she'd no longer be a problem, no...

Of course, dark side Jaden does kill her.
Once again proving that only the bad guys will actually finish off their mortal threats.

[Ghost Rider]

Oddly enough, thats exactly what happens in Jedi Academy (the game). Tavion takes her Star Destroyer

Arg. She wasn't taken into custody? GAARGH. Now if Katarn had just excecuted her, she'd no longer be a problem, no...

Of course, dark side Jaden does kill her.
Once again proving that only the bad guys will actually finish off their mortal threats.

Now, now...we know Spaceballs answered this.

Evil will always win, because Good is dumb.

Seriously the more you read of ficition the more you wonder about the validity of this phrase.

[NecronLord]

I didn't mind Katarn letting her live per se, but I had assumed that he'd 'off-screen' arranged for her arrest by Lando's secruity force.

[NecronLord]

Speaking of computer games, Trek has a far worse moment. There's a bit in Star Trek: Elite Force II where the Enterprise is under attack from an alien vessel, and you've got to, using an auxiliary pulse phaser (that was quite contrived in itself, I would have preffered some sort of manual aiming system, but anyway) stop it destroying the ship.

You heard me right, the Enterprise is near to destruction, and a few more good hits will take it out. You've got to disable the enemy ship's weapons, shields and propulsion.

Fair 'nuff.

But you've got to avoid blowing it up. If you blow it up, you lose the game and have to start from the last save.

I hate that level with a passion. It's idiotic. "We're near to being destroyed, but you can't be allowed to destroy the enemy ship."

[Admiral Johnason]

Well, if you're studying historical and political subjects, at least I would presume you don't subscribe to that idiotic "they would fight to the death" wankfest style of argument common to youngster fanboys. I am so sick of seeing kiddies wank about people "fighting to the last man" or some other such furious-wanker nonsense.

No, the Federation would surrender after the casualities would start to pile up and some of the critical worlds would fall. The temperment of the Federation government would cause them to negoiate and accept a limited Imperial oversite. The Empire would be gracious enough to allow for semi-self government of the Federation in exchange for a "healthy" share of the resources and a mutual defense treaty with Starfleet. Total destruction of the Alpha Quadrent, while easy, fast, and cheap if Empire acts in a mildly-competent fashion, neither helps to allow for order or profit. The Empire would treat the Federation in the way that Rome would treat it's semi-independent territories. In other words, if the Empire could avoid it, they would simply commit to a show of force and a strong treaty unless the Federation resisted, forcing the Empire to meet this show of defiance with maximum prejudice until the Federation sues for peace. The Empire is smart enough to realize that it is cheaper to adapt the current Federation system to their own needs instead of a total rebuild. I mean, look at Iraq. It would simply be a waste in the long run to destroy the local governments, but I would put it past them if they were instigated.

The Rebels would choose to ally themeselves with the Federation solely to get at the resources. probably trading old model equipment, intel, and access to personel. While the Rebels coudl also easily beat the Federation into submission, they would run into the same issues as the Empire. What good would the resources be if the nation in charge of their collection and processing (we are talking about a fully Socialist For the sake of trade and infastructure, the Rebels would negoiate with the Federation. However, the Federation could have reservations of aiding the Rebel Alliance due to the threat of incuring Imperial reprisal and the obvious differences in ideals between the newly communicating governments, but in the long run, both would see the advantages of an alliance with more of the Rebels rubbing off on the Federation then the other way around.

The Federation would choose to negoiate due to it's desire to remain intact and operational instead of in ruins. If they choose to commit suicide, then most of the hotheads would be destroyed at the outset by a fast moving Imperial strike force due to inferior tactics, tech, and a severe disadvantage in terms of numbers and firepower of capital ships. After the loss of an entire fleet to a government that would be willing to negoiate for access to resources and the people, the Federation would see the error of it's ways.

None of the nations involved seem to lack the abiltiy to reason so none of these assumptions are far fetched. Resources and infastructure are the only reason for the Empire to even involve itself with the ST universe unless the Federation, Klingons, or Romulans did something stupid. The Klingons would ally with the Empire for the sake of being involved with such a powerful military force who believes in power and stability and promotes open militrism. I really can't judge the current statre of the Romulan Empire due to the chasos left after the fall of that stupid... clone. I do not know the make up of the new government, but due to past shrewedness, I would say that they would bargin for a good spot in the new order in the Alpha Quadrent, espically after the disasters they experienced in DS9 due to a lack of consideration of consequences. I don't care to venture on how a Klingon/Rebel or a Rebel/Romulan alliance would look, because I feel that Rebels probably would not care to ally with governments that contrary to its core beliefs, but I would not rule out limited trade or non-agression pacts, prehaps even an exchange of intel.