The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-04-17 03:58pm

Mange the Swede wrote:You don't need to bother, there's not a single insult there.

Right. Several of her "fandos" came in, expecting to be outraged by the treatment she had received, and after reading the thread concluded that no one had said anything derogatory to her. Apparently, everyone missed all of the flames that Ms. Traviss sees.

And I agree with VT and HDS--I love the way she plays up the professionalism of writers even while behaving like some lout off the street. I'd be surprised if anyone looked at her statements and her behavior and conclude that she's acting in anything resembling a professional manner.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-04-17 05:14pm

VT-16 wrote:I can't believe she's arguing SW writers have no say in the story-process. is this how people are going to excuse their stuff from now on?

That contradicts everything every writer I've ever heard says. Most writers do their story, send it to Licensing where continuity people and editors make modifications in the case of contradictions or things Lucas wants left alone, then the author rewrites the areas they want changed and it gets published. No one tells them what kind of story they want they mostly just tell them what they can't do because of continuity or Lucas' preferences.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-04-17 05:23pm

It contradicts what Traviss herself has said about the story process. How would she have outlines and backstories for all her clones prior to the greenlighting of Triple Zero if she's given the storylines by Lucasfilm?

Meest · Post by **Meest** » 2006-04-17 05:39pm

000 wrote:It contradicts what Traviss herself has said about the story process. How would she have outlines and backstories for all her clones prior to the greenlighting of Triple Zero if she's given the storylines by Lucasfilm?

Because that's BS, implying that all she does is fill in words for LFL's outlines just to save face once again. "I'm a pro blah blah blah, they found me to do it I didn't look for them." Might as well admit you're a no talent typewritter monkey.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-17 07:57pm

What a wanker. 'lol do you even have a job you noob'.

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2006-04-17 09:17pm

The TFN thread has now turned into a minimalist circle jerk.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-04-17 09:21pm

It seems to me that they've completely gone off the deep end and no more time and oxygen need be wasted on them and their delusions.

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2006-04-17 09:38pm

Cao Cao wrote:It seems to me that they've completely gone off the deep end and no more time and oxygen need be wasted on them and their delusions.

I agree.

Although I just did make a minor correction of Hodge's idiocy.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-18 01:47am

In the light of this hilarity, here's.....

more hilarity, from the Wookiepedia Battle of Muunilinst talk-page!

"The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations"; and the meaning of "millions more" in this context is disputed - does it mean "clone divisions", or is "clones" silently understood?

Apparently, Hodge doesn't understand English grammar.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-18 02:01am

Fuck that politcally correct bullshit. Is mentioning the "controversy" about every God damn quote really necessary in what is supposed to be an Encyclopedia?

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-18 02:03am

Archon wrote:The TFN thread has now turned into a minimalist circle jerk.

It was anything else before?

Archon · Post by **Archon** » 2006-04-18 02:20am

Jim Raynor wrote:
Archon wrote:The TFN thread has now turned into a minimalist circle jerk.
It was anything else before?

Conceded.

Count Dooku · Post by **Count Dooku** » 2006-04-18 04:59am

Why don't the many posters in this forum all contribute to write one amazing fan-fic? Who likes the idea?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-04-18 05:18am

Jim Raynor wrote:Fuck that politcally correct bullshit. Is mentioning the "controversy" about every God damn quote really necessary in what is supposed to be an Encyclopedia?

Is it a Wiki?

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-04-18 06:27am

Surlethe wrote:
Jim Raynor wrote:Fuck that politcally correct bullshit. Is mentioning the "controversy" about every God damn quote really necessary in what is supposed to be an Encyclopedia?
Is it a Wiki?

Yes. Thrawn McEwok and the other minimalists keep putting in sections about the "controversy" surrounding every quote they don't like, even if the quote is pretty clear and they're the only people who are disputing it.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-18 06:29am

Yeah, their famous "some part of the fandom think", whenever there is an ambigious quote.

I need modship there, as soon as that would happen, *snip* goes alot of bts speculation.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-04-18 08:48am

Hmm, English is McEwok's native language, isn't it? Look at the post with a quote from Insider #84:

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 6/p29/?715

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-04-18 09:03am

JimRaynor55 posted:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why even argue about whether the droids could learn? Gaining experience means NOTHING if the enemy outnumbers you hundreds, thousands, or billions to one. Experience is not going to turn a clone into Superman, especially when he realistically wouldn't even survive that long. The idea that you can become hundreds of times better with experience is RIDICULOUS, and I can't believe some people on this board are actually using that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jim,

DarthBoba is a soldier. A real one.

Thus, to argue with a solider just how much experience is worth to a troop, when he's one and you're not, smacks of arrogance. Not to mention such a position is best likened to building a fortress by stripping the cushions off a sofa and taking potshots at people as they go past.

I just thought I'd let you know, that you were arguing someone's job with them. Not that I suspect it matters, but it's a courtesy. Let it not be said that E_S is not extremely courteous.

E_S

This guy actually thinks you're gonna get hundreds of times better as a soldier with experience? Holy fucking shit, let's send 1 veteran into Bagdad and clear things up then!

Next time, palmfucker, try using "you can't argue with the President because you're not one yourself". See how far that goes.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-04-18 09:28am

Jim Raynor wrote:
Surlethe wrote:
Jim Raynor wrote:Fuck that politcally correct bullshit. Is mentioning the "controversy" about every God damn quote really necessary in what is supposed to be an Encyclopedia?
Is it a Wiki?
Yes. Thrawn McEwok and the other minimalists keep putting in sections about the "controversy" surrounding every quote they don't like, even if the quote is pretty clear and they're the only people who are disputing it.

It's from the nature of a Wiki; as long as you've got bullshit rules about POV and fairness, any dispute, real or imagined, gets aired.

Hot Hands Harry · Post by **Hot Hands Harry** » 2006-04-18 08:16pm

This is silly. Let me take a rough crack of finding some clone numbers.

Venator
Ship Crew 7400
V-wing 192 = 192
Eta-2 192 = 192
ARC 36 = crew 108
LAAT 40 = crew 160 + troops 1200
Walkers 24 (assuming half are Juggernauts and the rest are AT-ET) 12 Juggernaut crew are 144 + troops 3600 and 12 AT-ET crew 84 + troops 240

For a grand total of 13320 clones. Assuming that the Venator does not carries any dismounted infantry which it probably does and if I had to guess would be another 3840 clones but I will not included this to the total.

We know that there were 2500 Venators at the beginning of RotS not counting any that were destroyed during the hours of ship to ship fighting. So we have a total of 33,300,000 for the lower limit of the 5th fleet. So assuming that the other 4 fleets are also made up of Venators and not any Acclamator troop ships or have any larger ships in them would be 166,500,000 clone on ships.

Now assuming that there are zero clones on any planet except for Coreastant (sp) of a whopping 3 million. (Yeah right).

For a grand total of 169,500,000 clones.

Now assuming that the clone production rate doubles every year in the war.
Year 3 169,500,000.
Year 2 83,250,000.
Year 1 41,625,000.
6 months 20,812,500.
3 months 10,406,250.
6 weeks 5,203,125.
3 weeks 2,601,562.5 (half a clone here).
So bending over backwards I get 2.6 million within the first month of the war and 41.6 million by the time of Triple Zero. Remember this is the lowest limit I can get with no troops on any planet except Coreascant (sp).

Count Dooku · Post by **Count Dooku** » 2006-04-18 08:56pm

Hot Hands Harry wrote:This is silly. Let me take a rough crack of finding some clone numbers.

Venator
Ship Crew 7400
V-wing 192 = 192
Eta-2 192 = 192
ARC 36 = crew 108
LAAT 40 = crew 160 + troops 1200
Walkers 24 (assuming half are Juggernauts and the rest are AT-ET) 12 Juggernaut crew are 144 + troops 3600 and 12 AT-ET crew 84 + troops 240

For a grand total of 13320 clones. Assuming that the Venator does not carries any dismounted infantry which it probably does and if I had to guess would be another 3840 clones but I will not included this to the total.

We know that there were 2500 Venators at the beginning of RotS not counting any that were destroyed during the hours of ship to ship fighting. So we have a total of 33,300,000 for the lower limit of the 5th fleet. So assuming that the other 4 fleets are also made up of Venators and not any Acclamator troop ships or have any larger ships in them would be 166,500,000 clone on ships.

Now assuming that there are zero clones on any planet except for Coreastant (sp) of a whopping 3 million. (Yeah right).

For a grand total of 169,500,000 clones.

Now assuming that the clone production rate doubles every year in the war.
Year 3 169,500,000.
Year 2 83,250,000.
Year 1 41,625,000.
6 months 20,812,500.
3 months 10,406,250.
6 weeks 5,203,125.
3 weeks 2,601,562.5 (half a clone here).
So bending over backwards I get 2.6 million within the first month of the war and 41.6 million by the time of Triple Zero. Remember this is the lowest limit I can get with no troops on any planet except Coreascant (sp).

After this analysis, we MUST go back to the ATOC quote, "we have 200,000 units ready, and another million well on the way". The key word is UNIT. The word could mean soldier, platoon, battalion, or even division. I'd venture that it mean division, because you'd need that many just to crew the damn ships to fight the damn war.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-04-18 11:35pm

Considering the AOTC:ICS quote of first batch of divisions ready with millions more on the way it seems a good inference that the units referred to in AOTC are divisions.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-04-19 12:01am

NRS Guardian wrote:Considering the AOTC:ICS quote of first batch of divisions ready with millions more on the way it seems a good inference that the units referred to in AOTC are divisions.

That's actually ITW that says that.

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2006-04-19 01:04am

For those of you without the book, the quote is on a page detailing the Kamino facilities, titled "Military Complex." The main text reads:

THE CLONE MILITARY EDUCATION COMPLEX, which dominates Tipoca City, is the biggest training center on Kamino. Its current production is dedicated to fulfilling the Republic contract, the largest cloning project the Kaminoan government has ever undertaken. When Obi-Wan arrives, Tipoca is already primed to deliver 200,000 clone troops, while facilities across the planet are equipped to produce millions more. As prime minister Lama Su walks Kenobi through Tipoca's public display floor, he has no doubt that the Jedi will be impressed with his superbly organied operation.

So, as you can see, it is 200k individual troops. The relevant quote is a caption on a screenshot from AotC from the sceen where screen is filled with white-armored clones marching for display.

The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations. Troops are drilled in formation on outdoor training grounds, which are occasionally unusable at the height of the rainy season due to increased electrical disturbances.

Further, it's not clear what size a "division" is. From later in the book:

Republic Troopers
On Geonosis, the Republic deploys two full battle armies, with Yoda and Mace Windu commanding one each and other veteran Jedi Knights in charge of eight corps of 36,864 troops each. All other divisions are led by specially trained clones: Commanders head regiments of 2,304 men; clone captains lead companies of 144 men; lieutenants head platoons of 36 men, and sergeants comand squads, each made up of nine clone troopers.

8*36,864=294,912...I'm confused.

Count Dooku · Post by **Count Dooku** » 2006-04-19 02:06am

NRS Guardian wrote:Considering the AOTC:ICS quote of first batch of divisions ready with millions more on the way it seems a good inference that the units referred to in AOTC are divisions.

It would have to be. I don't see how it could be anything else. You'd literally be engaging an enemy fleet in a thousand systems at once (probably 5 times that number), and on countless planets - trying to destroy and/or capture vast production facilities and raw materials. Any author that would say that there are only a few million clones in the GAR is out of their mind...