Is the Devil a God?

[Darth Wong]

I think you're making good points but in my experience, if you try to analyze Christianity in front of a Christian he will eventually get frustrated and perhaps a bit uncomfortable with what you're doing, and then he'll just close off. You can't make people apply logic to their belief systems; they either want to try on their own, or they don't.

[EmperorSolo51]

So? He was a first century jew, of course he's going to view it like that. Even Asherah worship has gone out of style centuries before he was even born; he will reflect the judaism of the time, not the past. He's not an automatic authority on scripture just because you think he's God, to anyone else, he's a first century jew, nothing more.

However, Christ's interpretation sims to fit the bill as famed Calvinist Theologian John Gill notes in his Bible Exposistion:

Ver. 1. God standeth in the congregation of the mighty,.... The Syriac version renders it, "in the congregation of angels"; they are mighty, and excel in strength, and there is a large company of them, even an innumerable one, and who surround the throne of the Majesty on high. Christ, who is God over all, was among those on Mount Sinai, and when he ascended to heaven; and with these he will descend when he comes a second time, Ps 68:17. The Targum interprets it of the righteous thus,

"God, whose majesty (or Shechinah) dwells in the congregation of the righteous that are strong in the law.''

It may be better understood of such as are strong in the Lord, in the grace that is in Christ, and in the exercise of grace upon him; who are gathered out of the world unto him, and unto distinct societies and congregations; in the midst of which God is, where he grants his presence, bestows the blessings of his grace, and affords his divine aid and protection; and where Christ the Son of God is, and will be to the end of the world. The words may be rendered, "God standeth in the congregation of God" {a}: that is, in his own congregation, his church and people; but it seems best of all to understand the words of rulers and civil magistrates, of the cabinet councils of princes, of benches of judges, and courts of judicature; in all which God is present, and observes what is said and done; perhaps reference may be had to the Jewish sanhedrim, the chief court of judicature with the Jews, consisting of seventy one persons; in the midst of which Christ, God manifest in the flesh, God in our nature, stood, and was ill used, and most unjustly judged by them, of whose unjust judgment complaint is made in the next verse:

he judgeth among the gods: which the Syriac version renders "angels" again; and so Aben Ezra interprets it of them, who are so called, Ps 8:5, but rather civil magistrates are meant, the rulers and judges of the people, who go by this name of "elohim", or gods, in
Ex 21:6, and are so called because they are the powers ordained of God, are representatives of him, are his vicegerents and deputies under him; should act in his name, according to his law, and for his glory, and are clothed with great power and authority from and under him; and therefore are before styled the "mighty". Among these Christ, the Son of God, judges, to whom all judgment is committed; he qualifies these for the discharge of their office, he directs them how to judge, and all the right judgment they make and do is from him, "by" whom "kings"

Since the heavenly assembly existed as depicted to the source mythology of the jews, that is, the mythology of the canaanites, as an olympus-style congregation of gods atop a mountain, I see no reason to read into it the meaning you give it; it seems to be a textbook case of reading an agenda backwards through time rather than looknig at the text contextually.

The problem as again, you are taking a look at the olympus courts of greek mythology and apply it your esigisis here to fit your preconcieved interpretartion. The fact that God here is lamenting on the gods who are judging pretty much tells me just who the gods are in psalm 82 and they are indeed the evil Judges and people who hand out evil judgements.

Indeed, check the commentaries on psalms 82 here:

1 [Psalm 82] As in Psalm 58, the pagan gods are seen as subordinate divine beings to whom Israel's God had delegated oversight of the foreign countries in the beginning (Deut 32:8-9). Now God arises in the heavenly assembly (Psalm 82:1) to rebuke the unjust "gods" (Psalm 82:2-4), who are stripped of divine status and reduced in rank to mortals (Psalm 82:5-7). They are accused of misruling the earth by not upholding the poor. A short prayer for universal justice concludes the psalm (Psalm 82:8).

2 [5] The gods are blind and unable to declare what is right. Their misrule shakes earth's foundations (cf Psalm 11:3; 75:4), which God made firm in creation (Psalm 96:10).

3 [6] I declare: "Gods though you be": in John 10:34 Jesus uses the verse to prove that those to whom the word of God is addressed can fittingly be called "gods."

4 [8] Judge the earth: according to Deut 32:8-9, Israel's God had originally assigned jurisdiction over the foreign nations to the subordinate deities, keeping Israel as a personal possession. Now God will directly take over the rulership of the whole world.

Judging as in telling the People Of Israel the are indeed false because they did not stop God from executing the plagues on Egypt. Once again a literal interpretation does not work here as it comes into conflict with God saying he is the only God.

I have my own problems with the NAB and its commentaries as promoted by the USCCB. But the New Jerusalem Bible pretty much what I said above and it has a Nihil Obstat Imprimateur.

As it says in the NJB:

82 a . A warning to the wicked rulers and judges in an eschatological setting. v 1,5,8
b. Indictment frequent in the prophets Is 1:17sq.: Jr 5:28; 21:12; 22:3, EZK 2:27,9; Mi :1-11; Ze 7:7-9,1; See Jb 29:12, P 18:5; 24:1-12
C. The ruers and judges are reckoned withth 'sons of the Most Hight' members of he havenly court, see Jb 16f

Uhhh, do you have evidence for this, at all beyond backward reading? The reading of Exodus 12:12 "I will pass through the land of Egypt in the same night, and I will kill all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both of humans and of animals, and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. I am the Lord." seems to imply they're as real as animals or humans.

Again, if we interpret that the gods spoken of in Exodus are real then the Bible is in massive contradiction as God says that there are No other Gods, he is the True God, Was the only one here at the creation of the world, etc. We must take this part of exedus to refers to the the judgement of God on the false gods. Since these "gods" did nothing to oppose the plaugues of egypt, (In fact pharoah goes to Moses repeatedly to ask God to stop these plagues.) God is passing judgement down by leading the israelites out of egypt.

And like I said, Numbers Numbers 33:4 confirms it: "Now the Egyptians were burying all their firstborn, which Yahweh had killed among them; Yahweh also executed judgments on their gods."

Meaning that as said above God has jusdged them to be false.

If you want to claim the authors of those segments didn't consider other gods real, please present the evidence for it, rather than dishonestly attempting to take the entire bible as one text with one author, rationalising contradictions by means of more recent theology, rather than historical context.

That's the whole point of the field Harmeunetics and Exegesis to find what the Bible really says rather than to take things literally. What you are doing is taking a literal interpretation of the events in sacred scripture like the fundamentalist do, then when I present an alternative interpretation of scripture, you don't like it. Atheists and Christian fundies are really in the same boat as thier interpretations are indeed flawed?

The Ancient Israelites may have belived and indeed worshipped false Gods, as they did in the Exodus in the Golden Calf. But that does not mean that one who wrote the scripture is saying that there were literal demi-gods running around recieving worship as I noted earlier with John Gill's Bible exposostion on this matter.

How far back do you want to go? I can go as far back as St. Jeromes Commentary around 400 AD, Howabout Justin Martyr's writings, his was about 180 AD, or how about Jewish sources and thier interpretation of scripture. Or how about some Bible Commentaries from Luther, Calvin, and John Gill. Athanasius? Cyprian? Basil and Cyril? Or How about the Greek Orthodox's interpretation on this matter?

On Psalm 82, here some Bible Commentaries from some of the best Protestant thinkers of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries. Though they are not an exhaustive list of commentaries on this matter they do provide insight as to generally what pslam 82 is about as do they explain just who the gods are. Though I offer it up as circumstantial evidence at best.

[Rye]

Stravo, you have to remember that Isaiah 45:7 ithink it is says that God is the creator of evil, and any jews I've spoken to about it agree with it and think that God is the source of absolutely everything, including evil. Seems to be an important divergence point between the religions there.

[VT-16]

Having not payed too much attention to interpretations and the correctitude of older versions of Scripture, I have one question: Doesn't God proclaim, after A & E eat the apple, that "They have become like us". Why is he talking to himself in plural? :P

[Stravo]

Stravo, you have to remember that Isaiah 45:7 ithink it is says that God is the creator of evil, and any jews I've spoken to about it agree with it and think that God is the source of absolutely everything, including evil. Seems to be an important divergence point between the religions there.

Jews don't believe in the devil IIRC so that jibes with what you've said. A much more mature monotheistic view than Christianity's. Thanks Rye I didn't know that.

[Darth Wong]

You have to remember the Christianity started as the religion of the ignorant, uneducated lower classes in the Roman Empire. Small wonder its dogmas don't make any sense.

[SirNitram]

Having not payed too much attention to interpretations and the correctitude of older versions of Scripture, I have one question: Doesn't God proclaim, after A & E eat the apple, that "They have become like us". Why is he talking to himself in plural?

Royal We is the usual interpretation, though in the context I've brought up, it's possible he's referring to the other beings less-than-Creator, more-than-angel.

[EmperorSolo51]

Stravo, you have to remember that Isaiah 45:7 ithink it is says that God is the creator of evil, and any jews I've spoken to about it agree with it and think that God is the source of absolutely everything, including evil. Seems to be an important divergence point between the religions there.

The problem is that th hebrew word ra also means calamity and woe, and disaster, sorrow, mischief, displeasure, etc. It's a word that connotates a negative action, not just evil. Some bibles do not use the word evil and instead use disaster and calamity. Also the context of Isaiah 45:7 is speaking of natural pehonoma:

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:5-7).

[18-Till-I-Die]

I dont, personally, believe in Satan.

I think Satan is a kind of propaganda. This may seem odd, but see i think God needed something to kepe us in line. There are writings, i've bene told, where Jesus basically says "Look, there is no Hell. Everyone gets into Heaven...BUT, if everyone knew they'd get into Paradise they'd do what they please and not even try to be good. People would never stop getting their asses kicked. SO, God made up Hell and the Devil to scare people into acting good, so that we dont obliterate each other."

Thats not the exact words, but its a summary, and it makes sense to me. God in this context isnt all powerful, which i never believed. But in this context he is trying to make people choose good over evil, for the betterment of our civilization. Because if everyone knew there were no consequences for anything they did, nothing would hold people back. Some people would act good, because they're good people, but many people seem to be held back by "laws" and "morality" and not any kind of ethics or personal moral code, so without the fear of consequences mankind would probably be a lot worse off.

Think of it this way, you tell a child "Write on the wall again and i'll (some idle threat)"

You dont mean it, but that will stop them from drawing on the wall for a while. Its a threat you never intend to carry out but the fera of the consequences makes people think twice.

So i think thats what the Devil really is, he's a myth created to make people be afraid of a threat God never intends to carry out (sending you to Hell for your sins) because no Hell exists.

[Stravo]

Stravo, you have to remember that Isaiah 45:7 ithink it is says that God is the creator of evil, and any jews I've spoken to about it agree with it and think that God is the source of absolutely everything, including evil. Seems to be an important divergence point between the religions there.

The problem is that th hebrew word ra also means calamity and woe, and disaster, sorrow, mischief, displeasure, etc. It's a word that connotates a negative action, not just evil. Some bibles do not use the word evil and instead use disaster and calamity. Also the context of Isaiah 45:7 is speaking of natural pehonoma:

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:5-7).

I take it then that if I caused an earthquake that killed 10,000 people I didn't cause evil?

[Crossroads Inc.]

Seeing as how I am a Gay Catholic Hippy Liberal, I am prolly not the best person to weigh in on this.

But from my own experiances in terms of reading the Bible (the mistranslated mangled piece of text) The mythos story concerning Satan is that he was not just an 'Angel' but God's right hand man, that two where 'equal' before he turned evil.

Much of the "God could destroy evil but keeps it around to test us" mostly comes within the last 50 years from Evangelicals too spineless to admit that, according to their own book, God almost got overthrown and taken out by a mass rebelion.

[Crown]

Stravo, you have to remember that Isaiah 45:7 ithink it is says that God is the creator of evil, and any jews I've spoken to about it agree with it and think that God is the source of absolutely everything, including evil. Seems to be an important divergence point between the religions there.

Jews don't believe in the devil IIRC so that jibes with what you've said. A much more mature monotheistic view than Christianity's. Thanks Rye I didn't know that.

Jews believe that Lucifer is testing us on God's behalf*, that he is pimping for God (was the explaination I got from a Rabbi I asked about the subject - but not in the latter words obviously). Which is what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will resort to if you push them far enough on the issue. They have to, otherwise the admit that the Holly Trinity of the One True God has some competion in the diety contest and that they cannot do.





*Also the Rabbi told me that they don't subscribe to Hell as fire and brimestone with Satan as the chief events organiser and all that jazz, but rather a kind of purgatory, death and being absent from God.

[EmperorSolo51]

I take it then that if I caused an earthquake that killed 10,000 people I didn't cause evil?

God created the world, a world that is a fallen one. One could say that he causes things to happen as a by-product of his creation. But I don't see it in quite that light. Such is the nature of suffering. Just as Christ suffered through his crucifixion yet found hope in it, we as Humans find hope even when the worst happens, because we know we will find hope.

[EmperorSolo51]

Jews believe that Lucifer is testing us on God's behalf*, that he is pimping for God (was the explaination I got from a Rabbi I asked about the subject - but not in the latter words obviously). Which is what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will resort to if you push them far enough on the issue. They have to, otherwise the admit that the Holly Trinity of the One True God has some competion in the diety contest and that they cannot do.

That's a bit of a skewed theology, if there ever was one. That would be mean that God has intentionally created evil and that evil is not just a by-product of the sin of pride. Not only that but it leads into some rather bizzare theology that usually involves a demiurge.

[Stravo]

I take it then that if I caused an earthquake that killed 10,000 people I didn't cause evil?

God created the world, a world that is a fallen one. One could say that he causes things to happen as a by-product of his creation. But I don't see it in quite that light. Such is the nature of suffering. Just as Christ suffered through his crucifixion yet found hope in it, we as Humans find hope even when the worst happens, because we know we will find hope.

You know damn well that didn't answer the question. It is either evil or it is not. The nature of good and evil created a dualistic world where actions are either or. The nature of suffering has absolutely nothing to do with the answer but is instead a way of sidestepping a very simple question.

[Stravo]

Jews believe that Lucifer is testing us on God's behalf*, that he is pimping for God (was the explaination I got from a Rabbi I asked about the subject - but not in the latter words obviously). Which is what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will resort to if you push them far enough on the issue. They have to, otherwise the admit that the Holly Trinity of the One True God has some competion in the diety contest and that they cannot do.

That's a bit of a skewed theology, if there ever was one. That would be mean that God has intentionally created evil and that evil is not just a by-product of the sin of pride. Not only that but it leads into some rather bizzare theology that usually involves a demiurge.

Hold on...God didn't create evil? God didn't creat the pride that led to sin? God didn't foresee this by product when he created pride?

[Rye]

Stravo, you have to remember that Isaiah 45:7 ithink it is says that God is the creator of evil, and any jews I've spoken to about it agree with it and think that God is the source of absolutely everything, including evil. Seems to be an important divergence point between the religions there.

The problem is that th hebrew word ra also means calamity and woe, and disaster, sorrow, mischief, displeasure, etc. It's a word that connotates a negative action, not just evil. Some bibles do not use the word evil and instead use disaster and calamity. Also the context of Isaiah 45:7 is speaking of natural pehonoma:

"I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; 6That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun That there is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, 7The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Which totally supports my assertion that it's a portrayal of a monistic god rather than the dualistic "God only makes good, Satan only makes evil" view. The whole theme of the part you posted is about being both sides of the coin.

[18-Till-I-Die]

God may not be all knowing, in fact its quite likely. He may not have ever concieved of pride or evil in humans, perhaps having never experienced it himself. It may have come as a complete shock, which brought abouta scramble to make up a "Hell" mythology to try and create a stopgap.

[EmperorSolo51]

You know damn well that didn't answer the question. It is either evil or it is not. The nature of good and evil created a dualistic world where actions are either or. The nature of suffering has absolutely nothing to do with the answer but is instead a way of sidestepping a very simple question.

Creation is not evil as all creation is good. But that doesn't mean that the universe is not a fallen one.

[General Zod]

Jews believe that Lucifer is testing us on God's behalf*, that he is pimping for God (was the explaination I got from a Rabbi I asked about the subject - but not in the latter words obviously). Which is what the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will resort to if you push them far enough on the issue. They have to, otherwise the admit that the Holly Trinity of the One True God has some competion in the diety contest and that they cannot do.

That's a bit of a skewed theology, if there ever was one. That would be mean that God has intentionally created evil and that evil is not just a by-product of the sin of pride. Not only that but it leads into some rather bizzare theology that usually involves a demiurge.

So, let's justify this, shall we? If god intentionally created evil, then he's a sadistic fuck and clearly not all-loving as your religion claims. If he created it accidentally, then that implies god is clearly imperfect, as something happened when he was making the universe that he didn't intend. Either way, what does that get us? Obvious flaws in your dogma and an imperfect god at best.

[EmperorSolo51]

Which totally supports my assertion that it's a portrayal of a monistic god rather than the dualistic "God only makes good, Satan only makes evil" view. The whole theme of the part you posted is about being both sides of the coin.

Or one could say that as a part of God's creation these things happen as God has created the natural phenonma.

[General Zod]

God may not be all knowing, in fact its quite likely. He may not have ever concieved of pride or evil in humans, perhaps having never experienced it himself. It may have come as a complete shock, which brought abouta scramble to make up a "Hell" mythology to try and create a stopgap.

If he was all knowing he wouldn't have had to go throughout Eden saying 'Adam, Adam where art thou?'. If you know everything, you don't gotta ask questions like that.

[18-Till-I-Die]

God may not be all knowing, in fact its quite likely. He may not have ever concieved of pride or evil in humans, perhaps having never experienced it himself. It may have come as a complete shock, which brought abouta scramble to make up a "Hell" mythology to try and create a stopgap.

If he was all knowing he wouldn't have had to go throughout Eden saying 'Adam, Adam where art thou?'. If you know everything, you don't gotta ask questions like that.

Exactly my point. He isnt all knowing, regaurdless of how much power your agree or dont agree, he has.

[EmperorSolo51]

So, let's justify this, shall we? If god intentionally created evil, then he's a sadistic fuck and clearly not all-loving as your religion claims. If he created it accidentally, then that implies god is clearly imperfect, as something happened when he was making the universe that he didn't intend. Either way, what does that get us? Obvious flaws in your dogma and an imperfect god at best.

There's always third option that rarely get's discussed as people just don't want to talk about here. It's That God created Satan loving him from eternity and knowing all of his actions for God views all space a time together. All creation is good in the eyes of God. Nothing would exist it was 100% purely evil as pure evil it'self can not and does not exist as a total romoval of one's self from God.

God has given free-will to his creatures, he doesn't control us like robots nor does he specfically create evil. Evil is a by-product of the abusal of the free-gift of free-will and turning it on him by refusing out of one's own pride to love God because he has delusions of granduer.

[Stravo]

Which totally supports my assertion that it's a portrayal of a monistic god rather than the dualistic "God only makes good, Satan only makes evil" view. The whole theme of the part you posted is about being both sides of the coin.

Or one could say that as a part of God's creation these things happen as God has created the natural phenonma.

If I create a playroom for children and I know that there are things about the room that will kill some children from time time (i.e. exposed sockets, nails in the floor, ) how is this not evil? At the very least extremely irresponsible.

You cannot distance God from the responsibilties and reprecusions of what he has made. Whether it is part of his plan - thus actively evil to create something that kills the creations he purports to love perfectly or he did not foresee this and thus not all powerful or all knowing.

Does the act of creation somehow insulate God from responsibility?