Is the Devil a God?

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2006-04-19 02:50pm

General Zod wrote: So everyone suffering from aids deserves it?

I beg your pardon?

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-04-19 02:50pm

General Zod wrote:So everyone suffering from aids deserves it?

Beat ya to it. Pffft.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-19 02:51pm

All this latest bit evades the very simple question:

Why the hell does an infinite being, capable of any of these feats, so desperately need the adoration of what amounts to some lab rats?

NeoGoomba · Post by **NeoGoomba** » 2006-04-19 02:52pm

SirNitram wrote:All this latest bit evades the very simple question:

Why the hell does an infinite being, capable of any of these feats, so desperately need the adoration of what amounts to some lab rats?

Abandonment issues?

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2006-04-19 02:52pm

SirNitram wrote:All this latest bit evades the very simple question:

Why the hell does an infinite being, capable of any of these feats, so desperately need the adoration of what amounts to some lab rats?

It goes to the Notion that is is our Parent, he created us and loved us from eternity, just as your parents loved you from day you were concieved and maybe even before then. The relationship of God and Man is one of Parent and Child.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-04-19 02:53pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
General Zod wrote: So everyone suffering from aids deserves it?
I beg your pardon?

God's capable of ending suffering. By your logic, when he chooses not to do so it's to punish people for their crimes. Thus, anyone who's suffering from Aids or any similar disease must clearly be doing so because God wishes them to, even though he's capable of ending it. So why do they deserve it?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-19 02:53pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:All this latest bit evades the very simple question:

Why the hell does an infinite being, capable of any of these feats, so desperately need the adoration of what amounts to some lab rats?
It goes to the Notion that is is our Parent, he created us and loved us from eternity, just as your parents loved you from day you were concieved and maybe even before then. The relationship of God and Man is one of Parent and Child.

My parents didn't give me a room full of things that can kill me stone dead, and never say a godsdamned word to me for my entire life. If he is to be judged to be a parent, we judge him by a parent's standards.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2006-04-19 02:56pm

General Zod wrote:
God's capable of ending suffering. By your logic, when he chooses not to do so it's to punish people for their crimes. Thus, anyone who's suffering from Aids or any similar disease must clearly be doing so because God wishes them to, even though he's capable of ending it. So why do they deserve it?

Again, the human diseases are again a product of the fallen nature of Man. There were many great Saints who fell to disease, but from all indication they were loved by God. It's about sufferring and overcoming that sufferring in hoping that there is something greater after this world. Like how Christ bore his cross, we too suffer, but we know that we should not dwell in despair.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » 2006-04-19 02:56pm

SirNitram wrote:All this latest bit evades the very simple question:

Why the hell does an infinite being, capable of any of these feats, so desperately need the adoration of what amounts to some lab rats?

Short answer? Because he's a dick.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-04-19 02:57pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Stravo wrote: Let me see if I have your position clear. You state that God is not the source of evil yet evil clearly exists in our world and that this evil is somehow OUR fault and solely our fault due to our fallen state BTW Deftly avoiding going into how we fell or the concept of Original sin perhaps one of the most monstrous attrocities committed by a loving god against his flock in any pantheon or religion.
Evil is the the the abondment of love. Evil is knowing that the difference between right and wrong and deliberately choosing wrong over right even though you knew damn well that it was wrong to choose Wrong over right. The Figurative or Literal Adam choose to seek become Gods instead of loving them. They in a sense became ignorant and chose to give up thier perfection out of thier own abandonment of God. They rejected perfection and were placed outside the garden or in this case a world transformed by thier own sin.

Our pride and sinfulness (where did these come from? Did God create Pride? Did he not know that he could then create a way to sin?) led us into this awful awful world where a being - NOT a god - rules the roost. But God has absolutely nothing to do with it. At all.
Again, The sins of pride and disobdience come with the gift of free-will. All of God's creation is given the ability to freely choose wether to serve him or not just as I have the ability to choose wether or not to pay taxes to the government or obey my parents, or what not. We have free-will to do these things but if we choose wrongly, Selfishness over the vitues then we will get punished.

Sorry, but that position is horseshit. Free choice implies full information between alternatives and consequences. Adam was certainly given none to start with and neither was Eve. And "don't do it or you're dead" doesn't count as information. Particularly if you have no grasp of the death concept to begin with.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2006-04-19 02:58pm

SirNitram wrote: My parents didn't give me a room full of things that can kill me stone dead, and never say a godsdamned word to me for my entire life. If he is to be judged to be a parent, we judge him by a parent's standards.

Does God have to speak physically in order to show love? Does God have to hold our hand and coddle us every step of the way? Does he not provide for us through he Graces, his strength, and his love? This is more of the me-ism that I was talking about.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2006-04-19 02:59pm

Patrick Degan wrote: Sorry, but that position is horseshit. Free choice implies full information between alternatives and consequences. Adam was certainly given none to start with and neither was Eve. And "don't do it or you're dead" doesn't count as information. Particularly if you have no grasp of the death concept to begin with.

Was not Adam perfect? He knew everything including right and wrong. He instead became ignorant by disobeying God.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-04-19 02:59pm

Well again i may point out, we are looking at this from a human perspective, and he is lookinga t it from whatever-race he is perspective.

BOTH SIDES are probably missing something crutial. Neither God or Man may fully understand one another here, what he considered vital--say, his perception of love and loyalty and freedom--to us may seem trival while what we consider vital may seem trival to him.

So he might not fully understand what is happening, any more than us.

Look at it this way: imagine an ant and a man. An ant looks up at you and has no idea, no ability to even imagine, what you are beyond "Crap its a giant!" and you look down at the ant and its world and its mind is so tiny you cant begin to think that small. What seems utterly important beyond imagining to an ant, is of literally no consequence to you or me, and what we consider vitally important is inconcieveable to an ant who cant understand life on such a level.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-04-19 03:00pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
General Zod wrote:
God's capable of ending suffering. By your logic, when he chooses not to do so it's to punish people for their crimes. Thus, anyone who's suffering from Aids or any similar disease must clearly be doing so because God wishes them to, even though he's capable of ending it. So why do they deserve it?
Again, the human diseases are again a product of the fallen nature of Man. There were many great Saints who fell to disease, but from all indication they were loved by God. It's about sufferring and overcoming that sufferring in hoping that there is something greater after this world. Like how Christ bore his cross, we too suffer, but we know that we should not dwell in despair.

How about answering someone's points directly for a change instead of this convoluted fellating of the church, fuckwit?

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2006-04-19 03:01pm

General Zod wrote:
How about answering someone's points directly for a change instead of this convoluted fellating of the church, fuckwit?

Becuase all you are giving me are cynical questions designed to trap me into one theological answer giving you an out. Sorry, but I calls 'em likes I sees 'em.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-04-19 03:02pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote: Sorry, but that position is horseshit. Free choice implies full information between alternatives and consequences. Adam was certainly given none to start with and neither was Eve. And "don't do it or you're dead" doesn't count as information. Particularly if you have no grasp of the death concept to begin with.
Was not Adam perfect? He knew everything including right and wrong. He instead became ignorant by disobeying God.

Now you're just flat-out lying. He didn't know good from evil (sic, right from wrong) until he ate from the tree of knowledge. Your own book says that much.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2006-04-19 03:02pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
SirNitram wrote:All this latest bit evades the very simple question:

Why the hell does an infinite being, capable of any of these feats, so desperately need the adoration of what amounts to some lab rats?
It goes to the Notion that is is our Parent, he created us and loved us from eternity, just as your parents loved you from day you were concieved and maybe even before then. The relationship of God and Man is one of Parent and Child.

I would never place my child in any danger or threat of any danger. I would never allow my daughter to suffer. I would forgive my child of crimes committed whether she said she was sorry or not. Whether she stole from me, struck me, lied to me I would never sentence my daughter to a blast furnace for all eternity.

A parent that does this is considered in our fallen world to be guilty of child abuse. In your world he is a perfectly just and loving god.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-04-19 03:03pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
General Zod wrote:
How about answering someone's points directly for a change instead of this convoluted fellating of the church, fuckwit?
Becuase all you are giving me are cynical questions designed to trap me into one theological answer giving you an out. Sorry, but I calls 'em likes I sees 'em.

Translation: I can't provide an answer that won't contradict my imaginary world, so I'm going to ignore what you're asking in favor of convoluted bullshit.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-04-19 03:04pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote: Sorry, but that position is horseshit. Free choice implies full information between alternatives and consequences. Adam was certainly given none to start with and neither was Eve. And "don't do it or you're dead" doesn't count as information. Particularly if you have no grasp of the death concept to begin with.
Was not Adam perfect? He knew everything including right and wrong. He instead became ignorant by disobeying God.

If Adam was perfect and knew everything including right and wrong, why then god's fear of his eating from the Tree of Knowledge then? And just where in Genesis is it mentioned that Adam had this foreknowledge? That one never came up in any religion class I attended.

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-04-19 03:04pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:Again, the human diseases are again a product of the fallen nature of Man. There were many great Saints who fell to disease, but from all indication they were loved by God.

This does not answer the question at all.

General Zod asks, why does God not end the suffering if he can?

Your response: because the World is "fallen". Well, duh. The World is fallen and He chooses not to save the fallen World... because it is fallen? WTF?

EmperorSolo51 wrote:It's about sufferring and overcoming that sufferring in hoping that there is something greater after this world. Like how Christ bore his cross, we too suffer, but we know that we should not dwell in despair.

So "its all about suffering" - that strikes me as being singularly sadistic.

See:

Point raised: Except you're ignoring the part where God can end the suffering on a whim if he wants. Unless you're suggesting that God has no control over hell whatsoever, in which case he's neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

Note that the issue under discussion is human suffering, such as poverty, AIDS, starvation, all that.

Your response: Then God wouldn't be just or loving if everybody no matter what crimes they committed, no matter how unrepentant they are would be let out. That's like a Governor giving clemency to every man in prison on the basis that they are human like everyone else. There is no justice to the people affected, to the prisoners themselves, or the the people at large. God is not just love but his love is meted out by perfect justice.

So in other words, you respond to the question of the existance of suffering by invoking justice: i.e. people suffer because they deserve to. Do you really not see that this is the implication of your argument? Is this really not maleficent? Is God not really morally obligated to aid the suffering masses if he can?

Oh, but wait: there is the issue of "original sin": we are intrinsically sinful so God is not morally obligated to do jack shit. In fact, by justice, we should all be condemned to an eternity of hell because our ancestors stole some apples from YHWH's yard, right?

Some "perfect justice", that.

EmperorSolo51 · Post by **EmperorSolo51** » 2006-04-19 03:04pm

General Zod wrote: Now you're just flat-out lying. He didn't know good from evil (sic, right from wrong) until he ate from the tree of knowledge. Your own book says that much.

Adsam was made in God's likeness and image, meaning he was perfect in everyway. The whole garden was a perfect paradise. The tree f Knowledge of Good and Evil is essentially the quest of man's own prideful nature to know what God knows. Adam disobeyed God and after eating of the tree, he became ignorant immediatly, he knew that he was naked etc.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-19 03:06pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
SirNitram wrote: My parents didn't give me a room full of things that can kill me stone dead, and never say a godsdamned word to me for my entire life. If he is to be judged to be a parent, we judge him by a parent's standards.
Does God have to speak physically in order to show love? Does God have to hold our hand and coddle us every step of the way? Does he not provide for us through he Graces, his strength, and his love? This is more of the me-ism that I was talking about.

This 'Me-ism' sounds like a stupid pile of shit concocted to avoid actually thinking. God has not given mankind dick since he threw us out of Eden, save a promise for the next time around. We've given ourselves clean cities, medicine, and so forth. We've saved ourselves from the very real dangers to ourselves. And God hasn't done shit to protect us from the dangers of this world.

So if you call him a Parent, he will be judged as such. That's not this 'Me-ism' bullshit, it's a simple fact of analogies. As a parent, he's a failure.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-04-19 03:06pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
General Zod wrote: Now you're just flat-out lying. He didn't know good from evil (sic, right from wrong) until he ate from the tree of knowledge. Your own book says that much.
Adsam was made in God's likeness and image, meaning he was perfect in everyway. The whole garden was a perfect paradise. The tree f Knowledge of Good and Evil is essentially the quest of man's own prideful nature to know what God knows. Adam disobeyed God and after eating of the tree, he became ignorant immediatly, he knew that he was naked etc.

If Adam was perfect, he wouldn't have fucked shit up and gotten himself kicked out of the garden in the first place!

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-19 03:08pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
General Zod wrote: Now you're just flat-out lying. He didn't know good from evil (sic, right from wrong) until he ate from the tree of knowledge. Your own book says that much.
Adsam was made in God's likeness and image, meaning he was perfect in everyway. The whole garden was a perfect paradise. The tree f Knowledge of Good and Evil is essentially the quest of man's own prideful nature to know what God knows. Adam disobeyed God and after eating of the tree, he became ignorant immediatly, he knew that he was naked etc.

Read your own damn book. He became knowledgable after eating from the Tree Of Knowledge. That was the point. He knew he was naked, as opposed to being ignorant of this beforehand!

Lord Zentei · Post by **Lord Zentei** » 2006-04-19 03:09pm

EmperorSolo51 wrote:
General Zod wrote: Now you're just flat-out lying. He didn't know good from evil (sic, right from wrong) until he ate from the tree of knowledge. Your own book says that much.
Adsam was made in God's likeness and image, meaning he was perfect in everyway. The whole garden was a perfect paradise. The tree f Knowledge of Good and Evil is essentially the quest of man's own prideful nature to know what God knows. Adam disobeyed God and after eating of the tree, he became ignorant immediatly, he knew that he was naked etc.

A few contradictions there. If his nature was prideful, he was not perfect. If his quest was to know what God knows, he did not possess total knowledge to begin with.