Skynet discovers Coruscant

[Vympel]

Yes. But there's a lot of HKs. How thick on the ground (or in the sky) is such weaponry going to be?

75,000 aircraft is small fry for Coruscant. Heck the cops would have that many aircraft.

Also it wasn't "light tripod mounted". It was a vehicle-mounted cannon.

True, yet it's much smaller than say the E-Web. However, it doesn't really matter, as it's quite likely that if the mamby-pamby Naboo security forces can have such cannons mounted on a speeeder, the seat of the Republic would have something at least as powerful. I would also point out that these flying HKs have none of the maneuverability of a SW airspeeder. My Episode 1 ICS also has a Gian 'gun speeder' design with three much bigger weapons- one mounted on the centerline and two light-repeating blasters on the side. It is also armored and has recessed engines. Just an example of a 'cop speeder'.

There are 1.5 million terminators. It took far, far less battledroids (than 1.5 mil) to cull a 200-Jedi force down to about a dozen survivors.

Except they won't be in an arena and won't be surrounded, and will have all Coruscant to play with.

Also comparing TF battledroids to Terminators is like comparing gangbangers to Green Berets.

How so? Why are terminators so impressive? What do they do besides walking straight into enemy fire, assured of their invincibility, even when they're not?

I assumed by "1 shot 1 kill" you were implying that a single hit anywhere on the body = death.

I didn't say that.

However, since it requires a critical hit (head, neck, heart, lungs, guts) to kill with a regular blaster, there is no advantage, since the plasma rifles will also do this. And the terminators fire with superior accuracy.

Except that terminators are machines, and any hit to their center of mass, where most hits occur, will take them out.

[Totenkopf]

Did it occur to You that most civilians also have flying vehicles?

These will be hijacked up the wazzo. If you've seen the Terminator films then you should know that when terminators need transportation, they take it. Violently.

With the potential for multiple chases with gunfire flying back and forth, building-to-building warfare, etc...

It's not something that would be over quickly.

[Vympel]

Did it occur to You that most civilians also have flying vehicles?

These will be hijacked up the wazzo. If you've seen the Terminator films then you should know that when terminators need transportation, they take it. Violently.

With the potential for multiple chases with gunfire flying back and forth, building-to-building warfare, etc...

It's not something that would be over quickly.

And did it occur to you that flying vehicles and armored, armed flying vehicles (like the Gian gun speeder) are not the same thing?

[Boba Fett]

Yes, "if" handheld blasters won't be enough, than the citizens would use some ion cannons...

Disable them, I say! Then it's easier to deal with them...

As for the T-1000 types, if the ion is not enough then vaporize them with a light turbolaser...

[Vympel]

Yes, "if" handheld blasters won't be enough, than the citizens would use some ion cannons...

Disable them, I say! Then it's easier to deal with them...

As for the T-1000 types, if the ion is not enough then vaporize them with a light turbolaser...

*wondering at the effects of Jawa gun on T-800*

Good idea.

[Totenkopf]

So civilians carry around ion cannons now?

Where have we seen this?

And how would they know who the T-1000s were? It could look like their best friend or most trusted colleage. You may say scanners, but to be sure it's unlikely that everywhere is going to have scanners, or be constantly scanning people. Only high security or secure areas.

[Totenkopf]

I mean, even when they were guarding the senatorial representative of Naboo, all they had in her room was video cameras, which she was able to cover.

[Darth Wong]

Did it occur to You that most civilians also have flying vehicles?

Parked 1 kilometre off the ground, and with no built-in weapons or armour. And by the way, most civilians on Coruscant take some kind of public transit. The density of traffic is such that only a very small percentage can actually have personal vehicles.

These will be hijacked up the wazzo. If you've seen the Terminator films then you should know that when terminators need transportation, they take it. Violently.

Oh, goody. Now they have cars, from which they can demonstrate their pathetic accuracy (or didn't you notice Kyle Reese not getting killed by the T-800 at a range of about 10 metres?) They'll be lucky to get through ordinary bulidings where everyone has weapons that can kill them, but in the air, they'll be worse than useless.

With the potential for multiple chases with gunfire flying back and forth, building-to-building warfare, etc...

Hardly. Once they figure out where the Termies are coming from, the invaders are cut off. Their air and armour is easily identifiable from a distance, and will be gone in short order. If they take over one skyscraper before being identified (which is going to be lucky; how difficult is it for someone to call the cops about fucking battle droids running rampant on the capital world where they're strictly prohibited), the cops can seal off the area, destroy any invaders coming through the gate, evacuate the building of humans, and then send in a construction droid to eliminate the whole mess.

It's not something that would be over quickly.

Yeah, sure. Whatever. SkyNet couldn't even beat an all-infantry resistance force and you figure they'll be able to cause serious problems for Coruscant

[Vympel]

So civilians carry around ion cannons now?

Where have we seen this?

If Jawas can carry small ion cannons (rifle is the more accurate term) in a backwater like Tatooine, I'm sure that such weapons exist on Coruscant- however, it's not like they're necessary, it's just an interesting little tangent. Han Solo's blaster is more than capable of blowing a T-800 apart.

And how would they know who the T-1000s were? It could look like their best friend or most trusted colleage. You may say scanners, but to be sure it's unlikely that everywhere is going to have scanners, or be constantly scanning people. Only high security or secure areas.

Considering that a commercially available R2 unit has scanners, I don't see why security forces wouldn't have scanners available to them to defend valuable areas- any area that isn't valuable or of strategic/tactical importance is irrelevant- what are the T-1000s going to do, run around knifing civilians?

[SWPIGWANG]

Fly thingys: The millenarian falcon/slave 1/random ship goes ram them until they give up....ah the wonders of >kt shielding.

Troop thingys: see above, with some Laser shooting

T1000 thingys: use the force + thermal detonator perhaps

[Connor MacLeod]

God, this is pathetic.

Ok, lets go to one point Vympel brought up and noone has mentioned (probably because its unneccessary) - Jedi. At any one time, there are several hundred Jedi on Coruscant. The minute trouble like this crops up, they'll be moving into action. Not neccesarily a singular advantage, but they don't need to be (they can be a major one, though.) Lightsabers are in the mid MJ to low GJ range, if I remember some of the calcs based on the TPM door scene correctly.

Lets look at Coruscant's advantages:

Numbers: There are at LEAST a trillion, if not orders of magnitude more (a trillion is the largest stated figure that I can recall for Coruscant.) At a bare MINIMUM we're talking 500,000 to 1,000,000 to one odds AGAINST the Terminators. While they may not be able to concentrate initially, once the Terminators begin attacking, it will be pretty easy to figure out where the trouble spots are, and concentrate accordingly.

This only includes the organic beings on the planet typically - probably not including transients, droids, or the like.

Another small point: Coruscant's gravity is about 1.4-1.5 times greater than Earth's gravity. One might point out this could prove to be an advantage, at least to the home-bound crew of Coruscant.

Terrain: Again, advantage goes to Coruscant. These are the defender's home turf, where they know the layout pretty damn well (which the T-800's are unlikely to immediately either.) Even moreso, they'll have primary control of the sensor/detection networks (as well as sensor assistance from orbiting starships - of which there are ALWAYS many) as well as access to security and computer networks, buildings, supply depots, and the like.

Even beyond that, they have a galaxy's worth of materiel and resources to call upon within a few days or even a few hours.

Also consider that much of Corscant is kilometers high cityscape, with a hundred+ underground levels. Without mapping and limited transportation, good luck navigating it before significant forces can be brought to bear. And then there are skyhooks and orbital stations.

Support: As I said, Coruscant has the edge yet again here. Not only do they have the industrial base of a galaxy to back them, they also hold the high ground (capital ships and battle/orbital stations in orbit) giving them a position to bombard T-800 positions from.

They also have superior combat fighters (in terms of capabilities.), which can further aid in attack.

They also have access to a much larger and more widely-diverse armory (ie the same galaxy) than the terminators have. This includes mines, grenades, rocket launchers, bombs, heavy tripod guns (E-webs, anyone?) and so forth.

We have an estimate range of firepower for clonetrooper rifles (which would not differ from TPM era ships significantly by an order of magnitude or so) from the AOTC ICS - Mike estimates that the yield of the charge at max power is equal to 2 kg of TNT, which I believe would equal 8 MJ if my math is correct. If we assumed that the difference in rifle/pistol firepower were similar in ratio to pistol/assault rifle firepower (say a 9mm Parabellum to the 5.56 mm NATO used in M-16's, if my information is correct), we could be looking at LESS than an order of magnitude difference in smaller pistols, maybe. So we're probably talking Mid or high KJ range at least to low MJ range (say 1-2 MJ) for a max-power shot.

They also have access to effective body armor/shielding devices (portable ray shields, portable shielding, etc.) scanners, camoflage/invisibility units (holoprojector shrouds, etc.)

The basic point is, Coruscant's got virtually EVERY advantage they could need to defeat the Terminator force once its presence is made known. Their detection capabilities can allow them to pinpoint/isolate attacks and coordinate forces. Their superior control of transport allows them to place troops in ideal positions to trap/ambush said forces. Their access to superior firepower gives them the edge needed to place effective traps as well as protect themselves. Aerial support and orbital support will virtually DENY the terminators any sort of open ground, forcing them to stay below. And if they stay congregated around the wormhole entry point, they'll be sitting ducks for a concerted assault, or even simple orbital bombardment.

It wont matter in the end how many civilians are killed, Coruscant will STILL be beyond the grasp of the Terminators to defeat as the details stand now.

[Connor MacLeod]

For that matter, didnt the T-1000 get destroyed by being dumped in a vat of molten metal? (The same Vat the T-800 dropped itself into?) And as I remember the T-800 wasn't particularily resistant to certain kinetic impacts (the steel rod through the gut, etc.)

Mike might be able to comment on this better, but I dont think it speaks well of the T-800's thermal properties (at least where blaster weapons are concerned.)

[MKSheppard]

And decides to invade it.

It sends through a force of 1.5 million T-800s, 150,000 ground HKs and 75,000 flying HKs. It also sends 100 T-1000s.

.
.
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What happens?

Deimos, quit fucking around with us.

[Joe]

This would be the equivalent of introducing a rabid rat with very sharp teeth into a den of wolves.

[Totenkopf]

The points you have stated are mostly valid.

However, the Terminators have several advantages:

• Surprise

Possibly their greatest advantage. Coruscant's defences are geared to an outside assault, not to large numbers of troops appearing right in the middle of the planet-city. They can split up into groups of 30-40, and these groups fan out, utilising the ready supply of transport. People won't know what's hit them until it's too late.

Look at the state of the US in the first hour or two after the WTC attacks. Nobody knew what the fuck was going on. It would be the same with Coruscant. Confusion rampant. By the time the authorities got a handle on the situation and on what exactly was happening, several hours would have elapsed, during which time the Terminators would have been rampaging with little organized resistance.

• Ready supply of easily-taken transport

The terminators are likely to be spread over a wide area by the time the scale of the assault becomes apparent. As I said: A HIGHLY MOBILE, versatile force with excellent unit cohesion, excellent tactical and strategic co-ordination. Terminators posess radio-based "telepathy" and can co-ordinate actions very well.

As to Mike Wong's comment about accuracy: Character shields were in effect. The majority of the other times in T1 (when the Terminator was firing against non-character-shielded individuals) it had excellent accuracy. The T-800 in T2 had even better accuracy, hardly missing a shot once, even difficult shots (An example being the gate padlocks during the bike/towtruck chase, or hitting the T-1000 when firing one-handed out the car window with a shotgun while driving backwards.)
Possibly the greatest testament to its accuracy is the minigun scene, where it caused 0.0 casulaties (presumably a point value casualty would indicate a wounded person, with a whole number indicating a fatality). Given the crowded parking lot and men running everywhere, and how close to them it fired while they were running, there is no way a human could have done that without killing or injuring some of them. It was firing to terrify, rather than to wound or kill - and it performed impeccably.

The majority of examples of excellent accuracy, clearly override the few examples of poor accuracy when firing at a character sheilded person.

Then there is the point about the liquid metal. While this did destroy the T-1000 and the T-800, both terminators also survived intense fires fueled by burning oil or diesel (the T-800 in the wreck of the tanker in T1, and the T-1000 in the wrecked tow truck in T2). So the limit they can take is somewhere between the heat of an intense fire, and the heat of a blast furnace.

Blaster bolts from rifles and from heavier pistols should be able to destroy a T-800 through concussive or explosive shock, but they would not affect a T-1000 in the long run, given their short duration and very limited heat transfer to target. (The T-1000 survived shotgun blasts to the head and being blasted apart by a grenade - it just kept reforming.)

As for orbital bombardment, you can't do that, because the terminators being in among civilians and civilian buildings, any orbital strike would cause many collateral casualties among the civilians. I can see the Empire doing that, because they are very ruthless, but the Republic would not do it. And since this is set in the Republic era...

[Joe]

No, not even the Empire would do a BDZ, they wouldn't need to. Both the Republic and the Empire can easily deal with this problem. Surprise is the only thing on Skynet's side.

[Sea Skimmer]

So civilians carry around ion cannons now?

Where have we seen this?

And how would they know who the T-1000s were? It could look like their best friend or most trusted colleage. You may say scanners, but to be sure it's unlikely that everywhere is going to have scanners, or be constantly scanning people. Only high security or secure areas.

A New Hope had ion cannon armed civilians

[Ghost Rider]

Surprise only works for so long...and you've yet to disputre the fact that Jedi would be able to sense the difference as well as that the sheer amount of force brought to bear against the Skynet's forces.

Honestly it's like saying the US army waltzes into Coruscant and starts shooting...what happens?

[Sea Skimmer]

Coruscant would have bigger gangs then this if we scale the ratios of major cites of the modern world to its quadrillion or so people. Terminators get wiped out after doing minimal if any damage of note.

[Totenkopf]

Coruscant would have bigger gangs then this if we scale the ratios of major cites of the modern world to its quadrillion or so people. Terminators get wiped out after doing minimal if any damage of note.

Not likely. The nature of gangs or street gangs is that they're not likely to have more than a few hundred people in them at most. No matter the size of the city they're in.

Where Coruscant would differ from an Earth city is not in the size of gangs but in the number of them. It would have many, many more individual gangs, (by orders of magnitude), but the actual size of each individual gang would be likely to be around the same.

The only gangs that would be larger would be the more organized, Mafia-style criminal groups. Those could conceivably be many times larger than their counterparts on Earth.

[Connor MacLeod]

The points you have stated are mostly valid.

However, the Terminators have several advantages:

• Surprise

Possibly their greatest advantage. Coruscant's defences are geared to an outside assault, not to large numbers of troops appearing right in the middle of the planet-city. They can split up into groups of 30-40, and these groups fan out, utilising the ready supply of transport. People won't know what's hit them until it's too late.

Proof? You're making these assumptions without backing them up (IE they can find and rapidly utilize local transports like speeders, the nature of Coruscant's defenses, etc.)

For that matter, how long can the Terminators run/operate before needing repairs or recharging? This will further limit their operational range (as will the fact they have only one major "base" to turn to, and that passage back and forth to a single location by millions of detectable robots will at some point give the location away.)

You're still further ignoring the 500,000/1,000,000:1 ratio, even ignoring outside aid.

Look at the state of the US in the first hour or two after the WTC attacks. Nobody knew what the fuck was going on. It would be the same with Coruscant. Confusion rampant. By the time the authorities got a handle on the situation and on what exactly was happening, several hours would have elapsed, during which time the Terminators would have been rampaging with little organized resistance.

Killing how many people out of a trillion? Getting how far? Even killing a billion people in the first couple of hours (roughly a 100 to one/1000 to one) ratio with no losses would be less than 1% of Coruscant's population. And you're ignoring the sheer volume of the planet and the operational limits of the Terminators where your "movements" are concerned.

Besides which, the US lacks Coruscants' vast computer, communications, and detection capabilities. And even if we assume confusion were locally sustained for hours, I question whether this would apply to officials or military or other government institutions (IE Fire, medical, etc.) Once you start getting tens of thousands or millions killed in a fairly localized area in a short period of time, it doesnt take much genius to figure out someone's attacking you.

I repeat, this makes NO difference in the end, even if we allow for hours of disorganization. Surprise hardly negates the sheer industrial/mateiral/personnel/technological advantages Coruscant brings to bear.

• Ready supply of easily-taken transport

The terminators are likely to be spread over a wide area by the time the scale of the assault becomes apparent. As I said: A HIGHLY MOBILE, versatile force with excellent unit cohesion, excellent tactical and strategic co-ordination. Terminators posess radio-based "telepathy" and can co-ordinate actions very well.

Assumption. "Likely" does not cut it. Prove it. All you do is repeat "highly mobile" without quantifying just how mobile.

And does the coordination require line of sight, and what is the source for it. Coruscant can coordinate as well, and far BETTER than the Terminators can.

Then there is the point about the liquid metal. While this did destroy the T-1000 and the T-800, both terminators also survived intense fires fueled by burning oil or diesel (the T-800 in the wreck of the tanker in T1, and the T-1000 in the wrecked tow truck in T2). So the limit they can take is somewhere between the heat of an intense fire, and the heat of a blast furnace.

So then quantify it. I provided a rough quantification for blasters, it shouldn't be too hard for you to quantify the toughness of the Terminators.

Blaster bolts from rifles and from heavier pistols should be able to destroy a T-800 through concussive or explosive shock, but they would not affect a T-1000 in the long run, given their short duration and very limited heat transfer to target. (The T-1000 survived shotgun blasts to the head and being blasted apart by a grenade - it just kept reforming.)

Blasters are thermal weapons as well. AS the liquid metal scene indicates, extreme heat is very damaging to Terminators - even the T-1000. IF not blasters, there are other weapons (flamethrowers, explosives, plasma weapons, etc.) that can be employed. A single class-A Thermal Detonator should be sufficient to wipe out a single T-1000.

As for orbital bombardment, you can't do that, because the terminators being in among civilians and civilian buildings, any orbital strike would cause many collateral casualties among the civilians. I can see the Empire doing that, because they are very ruthless, but the Republic would not do it. And since this is set in the Republic era...

If it comes down to letting the terminators slaughter the populace anyhow, and destroying them - which do you think is better? Besides which, even IF orbital strikes are impractical, there are still aerial support and starfighter attacks.

Orbital and aerial support will work quite effectively against the Terminators armor and aerial support and will deny them the open grounds

What it comes down to is that in the end there is no way the Terminators can inflict significant or lasting casulaties on Coruscant, nor overcome the sheer number of advantages they can bring to bear, despite initial surprise or confusion or how mobile they are. Unless they can kill millions per terminator, they'll still lose.

Your entire argument ignores the sheer number of advantages on Coruscant's side on teh basis that you assume the Terminators would be a highly mobilized guerilla force, without really supporting this argument with proof. So start providing some specific proof (Some figures of this "mobility" would be nice.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Coruscant would have bigger gangs then this if we scale the ratios of major cites of the modern world to its quadrillion or so people. Terminators get wiped out after doing minimal if any damage of note.

Not likely. The nature of gangs or street gangs is that they're not likely to have more than a few hundred people in them at most. No matter the size of the city they're in.

Where Coruscant would differ from an Earth city is not in the size of gangs but in the number of them. It would have many, many more individual gangs, (by orders of magnitude), but the actual size of each individual gang would be likely to be around the same.

The only gangs that would be larger would be the more organized, Mafia-style criminal groups. Those could conceivably be many times larger than their counterparts on Earth.

So what about the police forces? What about Jedi?

What about mercenaries, bodyguards, or troops called in from member worlds? They might not have a standing military, but they DO have troops(special forces that can attack and take whole worlds, even if they are sparsely populated - Rogue Planet.)

What about battle droids or war droids, for that matter.

[Stormbringer]

Totenkopft: You've got a point but it still doesn't change the fact that the terminators are out numbered and out gunned.

[Totenkopf]

Proof? You're making these assumptions without backing them up (IE they can find and rapidly utilize local transports like speeders, the nature of Coruscant's defenses, etc.)

Aquisition of speeders would be easy. Coruscant is hiving with the things. just take them the way they take cars in the films (batter/kill the owner and take it, or even just steal one that's parked).

For that matter, how long can the Terminators run/operate before needing repairs or recharging? This will further limit their operational range (as will the fact they have only one major "base" to turn to, and that passage back and forth to a single location by millions of detectable robots will at some point give the location away.)

John: "How long do you live.. I mean, last?"
Terminator: "120 years with my existing powercell"

You're still further ignoring the 500,000/1,000,000:1 ratio, even ignoring outside aid.

The vast majority of which are civilian sheeple who will take NO part in the fight.

Killing how many people out of a trillion? Getting how far? Even killing a billion people in the first couple of hours (roughly a 100 to one/1000 to one) ratio with no losses would be less than 1% of Coruscant's population. And you're ignoring the sheer volume of the planet and the operational limits of the Terminators where your "movements" are concerned.

If we assume a kill ratio of say two hundred to one for civvies vs terminators, (not unreasonable) the terminators will kill maybe 300 million or so. If we assume that Coruscant has a population of 1 trillion, a 300 mil. population loss would be equivelant to the USA losing 90,000 people - thirty times as many as were killed in the 9/11 attacks. (The Coruscant-equivelant for the 3,000 death toll of 9/11 would be about 10 million.)

When you consider the pure rage, shock and horror that went throughout America and indeed the world over the death of three thousand, it becomes obvious that a killing of several hundred million on Coruscant would be an event the memory of which would be profound and long-lasting.

Besides which, the US lacks Coruscants' vast computer, communications, and detection capabilities. And even if we assume confusion were locally sustained for hours, I question whether this would apply to officials or military or other government institutions (IE Fire, medical, etc.) Once you start getting tens of thousands or millions killed in a fairly localized area in a short period of time, it doesnt take much genius to figure out someone's attacking you.

None of which will stop mass killing being done in the time the Terminators last.

Assumption. "Likely" does not cut it. Prove it. All you do is repeat "highly mobile" without quantifying just how mobile.

Well I already explained how they would take from the alrge number of speeders flying about. Most of these can do what? 200, 300, 400 MPH? Enough that they can spread out fairly quickly.

And does the coordination require line of sight, and what is the source for it. Coruscant can coordinate as well, and far BETTER than the Terminators can.

Radio communication implies non-line-of-sight capability, does it not?

So then quantify it. I provided a rough quantification for blasters, it shouldn't be too hard for you to quantify the toughness of the Terminators.

It could be anywhere between about 670 to 2,000 degrees (Kelvin)

Blasters are thermal weapons as well. AS the liquid metal scene indicates, extreme heat is very damaging to Terminators - even the T-1000. IF not blasters, there are other weapons (flamethrowers, explosives, plasma weapons, etc.) that can be employed.

But how much heat does a blaster bolt impart?

And a flamethrower isn't likely to work, at least a Jango-Fett type flamethrower, since those are the type of lower-temperature flames that the terminators have survived.

A single class-A Thermal Detonator should be sufficient to wipe out a single T-1000.

Aren't thremal detonators large, area explosives? Once again collateral damage, civilian casualties, raises its ugly head... and risk to the user.

Orbital and aerial support will work quite effectively against the Terminators armor and aerial support and will deny them the open grounds

With the kind of environment Coruscant is, "open ground" may not be that important. And much of the open ground that exists will be so far down inside the monstrous urban canyons that it will be difficult to get a clear shot from orbit. Any ship or station taking the shot would need to be almost directly overhead.

What it comes down to is that in the end there is no way the Terminators can inflict significant or lasting casulaties on Coruscant, nor overcome the sheer number of advantages they can bring to bear, despite initial surprise or confusion or how mobile they are. Unless they can kill millions per terminator, they'll still lose.

Your entire argument ignores the sheer number of advantages on Coruscant's side on teh basis that you assume the Terminators would be a highly mobilized guerilla force, without really supporting this argument with proof. So start providing some specific proof (Some figures of this "mobility" would be nice.)

I never claimed that the Terminators would be able to take over Coruscant in its entirety, nor did I claim that they could beat the Coruscant defence force (whatever it's called) in a straight up frontal assault. Something of geurilla methods are required, but by doing so they can kill hundreds of millions and leave a lasting impression, before being stopped. THAT IS MY POINT.

[Joe]

Also, why exactly would SkyNet send valuable resources into a hopeless fight?