Suicide...

[Broomstick]

Anger may not be callous but for many cases, not entirely warranted. Granted it's understandable to be upset at someone if they purposely made their suicide a spectacle or a giant mess, the "typical" suicide (if it can be called typical at all) I was referring to is the situation where the person does not consider such factors. Someone who does a reprehensible act, even under conditions that strongly encourage that act, can be blamed and even condemned for making their choice assuming that this person had the proper rational faculties to judge the situation and, despite of that, chose the wrong decision. However, how is a seriously suicidal person rational at all? How can you be angry at a person who obviously had no real control over themselves?

I question that suicides are somehow totally irrational.

Some, no doubt, are. Self-mutilating/self-killing schizophrenics completely out of touch with reality would, to my mind, be "totally irrational" and absolutely not responsible for their actions.

But I don't believe that is always the case. Some suicides are very carefully and thoughtfully planned out. While I wouldn't describe the state of mind as normal I wouldn't call it irrational. Within the lethally depressed state of mind there might well be an internal and consistent logic at work. Or maybe not. It's on a case-by-case basis.

If someone impulsively leaps over the edge of a railing and plunges five stories to land head-first on a slab of concrete I agree there might not have been a rational thought process at work. If, however, someone did research on various methods of self-destruction and meticulously planned their chosen death both to succeed and to not be interrupted until after the deed was done then I just can't accept the notion that are completely out of control.

When one claims that they are selfish, I presume they're implying that they are intentionally self-centered. If you want to be semantically particular, you could argue that a suicidal person is selfish in that their irrationality will lead them to think of nothing other than removing their pain they are experiencing just like if a person was on the brink of starving to death, their immediate and only thought is to remove their pain by eating. Hence they give no thought to anything else, including other people. Still, I don't see how that should change the overall sentiment towards suicidal people if they cannot be blamed for acting "selfishingly" and thinking they way do.

I don't blame the suicide for being selfish - what I object to is the notion that it is somehow not a selfish act, or that lethal levels of depression somehow excuse this. It is selfish. It may be justifiable (to the suicide or perhaps even to others), but it's still selfish.

It's like the old saw that suicide is a cry for help - sometimes it is, other times the person is determined to die. Trying to talk about a "typical" suicide is over-simplifying the matter.

Well, crying for help and being determined to die aren't necessarily mutually exclusive (They can see dying as the "help" they are crying for).

True enough.

"Typical" was probably the incorrect word to use to describe what I was speaking of though I suppose I personally feel that most of the anger generated from suicide should be directed towards the causes of such circumstances that make people suicidal rather than the people themselves since they had little control once they became suicidal.

And what is the "cause" of intrinisc depression? Of decades-long depression that is NOT brought on by trauma? Do you get angry at someone's malfunctioning brain chemistry?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I question that suicides are somehow totally irrational.

Some, no doubt, are. Self-mutilating/self-killing schizophrenics completely out of touch with reality would, to my mind, be "totally irrational" and absolutely not responsible for their actions.

But I don't believe that is always the case. Some suicides are very carefully and thoughtfully planned out. While I wouldn't describe the state of mind as normal I wouldn't call it irrational. Within the lethally depressed state of mind there might well be an internal and consistent logic at work. Or maybe not. It's on a case-by-case basis.

If someone impulsively leaps over the edge of a railing and plunges five stories to land head-first on a slab of concrete I agree there might not have been a rational thought process at work. If, however, someone did research on various methods of self-destruction and meticulously planned their chosen death both to succeed and to not be interrupted until after the deed was done then I just can't accept the notion that are completely out of control.

The existence of an internal and consistent thought process at work does not necessarily mean that the thought process is rational. They may have the ability to plan things out or even "rationalize" the situation but in their desperate state, I would hardly call it rationalizing.

Remember that the basic instinct for self-preservation has been overriden for these people. Their thought processes lean heavily towards convincing themselves of committing suicide regardless of the fact that they, in many circumstances, have a lot to live for. They simply cannot see that. In a relatively normal state, these people would never rationalize the way they do or did in their state of despair.

I don't blame the suicide for being selfish - what I object to is the notion that it is somehow not a selfish act, or that lethal levels of depression somehow excuse this. It is selfish. It may be justifiable (to the suicide or perhaps even to others), but it's still selfish.

Semantically, suicide is selfish. However, the problem I have with using the word selfish is it comes with a connotating implication that they are themselves when they consider their "selfish" decision. It is difficult for me to believe that seriously suicidal people are really themselves. Granted that there is a range of rationality and irrationality where the term selfish may be applied on a case to case basis, the fact that the impulse to commit suicide requires such an extreme case of depression makes me inclined to think that the word selfish may not be the most appropriate description for most cases.

And what is the "cause" of intrinisc depression? Of decades-long depression that is NOT brought on by trauma? Do you get angry at someone's malfunctioning brain chemistry?

No, getting angry at someone's malfunctioning brain chemistry is silly. There would be nothing to blame if suicide was initiated by decades-long symptoms of depression. If suicide could have been prevented by taking steps to treat this depression, then yes, it would be perfectly valid to be angry at the actions (or lack of action) of those that created this suicide-inducing circumstance. But for cases in which suicide simply happens despite of precautionary actions, there is no justifiable reason to be angry (even though it would be a common and natural response). It would simply be tragic.

[Nova Andromeda]

I question that suicides are somehow totally irrational.

Some, no doubt, are. Self-mutilating/self-killing schizophrenics completely out of touch with reality would, to my mind, be "totally irrational" and absolutely not responsible for their actions.

But I don't believe that is always the case. Some suicides are very carefully and thoughtfully planned out. While I wouldn't describe the state of mind as normal I wouldn't call it irrational. Within the lethally depressed state of mind there might well be an internal and consistent logic at work. Or maybe not. It's on a case-by-case basis.

If someone impulsively leaps over the edge of a railing and plunges five stories to land head-first on a slab of concrete I agree there might not have been a rational thought process at work. If, however, someone did research on various methods of self-destruction and meticulously planned their chosen death both to succeed and to not be interrupted until after the deed was done then I just can't accept the notion that are completely out of control.

The existence of an internal and consistent thought process at work does not necessarily mean that the thought process is rational. They may have the ability to plan things out or even "rationalize" the situation but in their desperate state, I would hardly call it rationalizing.

--If by "internal and consistent thought process" you mean logical thought process then that thought process is by definition rational.

Remember that the basic instinct for self-preservation has been overriden for these people. Their thought processes lean heavily towards convincing themselves of committing suicide regardless of the fact that they, in many circumstances, have a lot to live for. They simply cannot see that.

--The idea that people who wish to end their lives are somehow hell bent on it for no reason is patently absurd. In fact, it is people like you who utterly fail to realize that what you consider "a lot to live for" clearly isn't for the other people. This idea only deminishes what little hope is left for suicidal people since you clearly don't even realize that they are in fact missing something worth living for (from their point of view, which is the only view that matters). The person that "cannot see that" is you.

In a relatively normal state, these people would never rationalize the way they do or did in their state of despair.

--Translation: if they wanted what I think they should want they wouldn't be suicidal.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

--If by "internal and consistent thought process" you mean logical thought process then that thought process is by definition rational.

No... if I meant a logical thought process, then I would have said "logical thought process", wouldn't I? But I used the words "internal" and "consistent", which has nothing to do with being logical or rational.

--The idea that people who wish to end their lives are somehow hell bent on it for no reason is patently absurd.

Of course that's absurd. But I have no idea how that applies to anything as I don't think anyone here thinks that suicidal people are hell bent on committing suicide for no reason.

In fact, it is people like you who utterly fail to realize that what you consider "a lot to live for" clearly isn't for the other people. This idea only deminishes what little hope is left for suicidal people since you clearly don't even realize that they are in fact missing something worth living for (from their point of view, which is the only view that matters). The person that "cannot see that" is you.

Granted that there are situations where there may be valid reasons to end one's life (euthanasia comes to mind), there are also situations where there are not. And in such situations, what they are missing may actually be achieved through actions other than suicide.

In a relatively normal state, these people would never rationalize the way they do or did in their state of despair

--Translation: if they wanted what I think they should want they wouldn't be suicidal.

If you want to put that statement in the context of wants, I'll do it for you: If these people weren't in such a state of suffering, they would have different wants. What I want has little relevance to their thought processes, which is inherently connected to their wants.

[Captain tycho]

I was suicidal at one very low point during my teen years because of a psychological disorder. The pain and anguish I experienced during that short, short period is indescribable. I know it was certainly bad enough to seriously consider suicide, but with the help of my parents I got through it.
I can easily understand how someone would rather die than live through anymore pain. It doesn't mean its rational, but the person who feels this way doesn't care whether its rational or not. They just want a way out of their mental prison as fast as possible.

[Nova Andromeda]

I was suicidal at one very low point during my teen years because of a psychological disorder. The pain and anguish I experienced during that short, short period is indescribable. I know it was certainly bad enough to seriously consider suicide, but with the help of my parents I got through it.
I can easily understand how someone would rather die than live through anymore pain. It doesn't mean its rational, but the person who feels this way doesn't care whether its rational or not. They just want a way out of their mental prison as fast as possible.

--I don't want to bring up bad memories, but why aren't suicidal desires rational? If you really want to relieve yourself of pain then death can be an entirely logical solution. Furthermore, saying a desire is irrational is like saying it is irrational that the sky is blue. People want what they want even if it may change or be complicated or difficult to identify. Furtunately, there are often "nonlethal" methods to relieve oneself of pain that simply require help from others or help getting over a high energy barrier (e.g., coping with the pain of chemo).

[Zero]

It's irrational because the depression will pass, and death won't. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The desire isn't for death so much as for an escape from the pain and torment. If the only end to pain will be death, then death could be seen as rational, but until then, it's not really a reasonable means of dealing with shit.

[Nova Andromeda]

It's irrational because the depression will pass, and death won't. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The desire isn't for death so much as for an escape from the pain and torment. If the only end to pain will be death, then death could be seen as rational, but until then, it's not really a reasonable means of dealing with shit.

--Bullshit, there is no reason why I can't want to avoid pain above a certain level even if costs me all future happiness. Given this, suicide is entirely rational under certain conditions. What you fail to realize is just how powerful pain is and that there are certain levels of pain for which no amount of pleasure can ever compensate. That level, of course, depends on the person.
-BTW, there is no reason to believe that "the depression will pass" like it is a puddle on a hot summer day. People often get depressed because of serious problems in their lives. Those problems need resolved and simply assuming they will go away is an ignorant pipe dream.

[Zero]

Bullshit, there is no reason why I can't want to avoid pain above a certain level even if costs me all future happiness. Given this, suicide is entirely rational under certain conditions. What you fail to realize is just how powerful pain is and that there are certain levels of pain for which no amount of pleasure can ever compensate. That level, of course, depends on the person.

According to whom? I've been through cycles of extreme depression before, and it's never been bad enough that the entirety of the rest of my life isn't worth living for. Who do you know that's ever experienced depression extreme enough that death is the rational alternative?

BTW, there is no reason to believe that "the depression will pass" like it is a puddle on a hot summer day. People often get depressed because of serious problems in their lives. Those problems need resolved and simply assuming they will go away is an ignorant pipe dream.

Oh come off it you bloody idiot. I didn't say it would just randomly go away like a fart in the wind. I just said that it wasn't permanent, which is true of any problem that can be resolved, if you desire it to be. Some problems don't lend themselves to easy solutions, but that doesn't mean there are no solutions. Even if a problem doesn't and won't go away, it doesn't mean people can't adapt to it and find a way to still live their goddamned lives.

Basing your decisions on if suicide is rational or not based on such extreme situations won't give you a realistic representation of the motivation for many people who decide to comitt suicide.

I only ask this because I think it's relevant to your ability to actually consider and understand the motivations of suicidal people: have you ever actually considered suicide?

[Nova Andromeda]

Bullshit, there is no reason why I can't want to avoid pain above a certain level even if costs me all future happiness. Given this, suicide is entirely rational under certain conditions. What you fail to realize is just how powerful pain is and that there are certain levels of pain for which no amount of pleasure can ever compensate. That level, of course, depends on the person.

According to whom? I've been through cycles of extreme depression before, and it's never been bad enough that the entirety of the rest of my life isn't worth living for. Who do you know that's ever experienced depression extreme enough that death is the rational alternative?

Anecdotal evidence is useless. That aside, depression is rarely the underlying cause and usually a symptom of other serious problems. Those problems vary and depending on whether they can be fixed or how severe they are a person may not wish to endure them. If they don't wish to endure them suicide may be an entirely rational option. I must again stress it isn't for any one else to decide what another person does or does not want from life.

BTW, there is no reason to believe that "the depression will pass" like it is a puddle on a hot summer day. People often get depressed because of serious problems in their lives. Those problems need resolved and simply assuming they will go away is an ignorant pipe dream.

Oh come off it you bloody idiot. I didn't say it would just randomly go away like a fart in the wind. I just said that it wasn't permanent, which is true of any problem that can be resolved, if you desire it to be. Some problems don't lend themselves to easy solutions, but that doesn't mean there are no solutions. Even if a problem doesn't and won't go away, it doesn't mean people can't adapt to it and find a way to still live their goddamned lives.

Basing your decisions on if suicide is rational or not based on such extreme situations won't give you a realistic representation of the motivation for many people who decide to comitt suicide.

I only ask this because I think it's relevant to your ability to actually consider and understand the motivations of suicidal people: have you ever actually considered suicide?

--"it wasn't permanent" == "it" will "go away" because you don't specify any requirement for "it" to go away where "it" is depression. This is clearly wrong as you admit, but you still fail to admit that whether it does go away largly depends on whether there is an acceptable solution to the underlying problem. Demanding that people simply live with their problem is a piss poor solution and no better than an excuse people use for not putting in serious resources and effort to making a suicidal person's life better.
-I've already said that arguing over whether a person wishing to end their life is rational or not is pointless (unless it is to decide how to help said person). A person wants what they want. Nevertheless, unjustly accussing a suicidal person of being irrational simply for being suicidal and then declaring that if their problems cannot be solved then they should just live with it only makes matters worse. In the end, perhaps nothing can be done to solve a person's problems, but if that time comes and they wish to end their life then one shouldn't demand that they "deal with it" and live on. Instead one should respect their right to die and simply ask (or beg) for the sake of others that the person continue with life instead.
-I have reasons for which I cannot answer your last question. However, I can say that there are reasons I would consider suicide and they go far beyond the "sitting on one's death bed with terminal cancer" senario. I also know what depression is like, but it isn't a reason I would end my life.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

If they don't wish to endure them suicide may be an entirely rational option. I must again stress it isn't for any one else to decide what another person does or does not want from life.

You don't get it. What one wants has little to do with whether or not they can think rationally. Assuming that there is a better solution (And in many cases, there is), it is irrational to choose the poorer solution.

Demanding that people simply live with their problem is a piss poor solution and no better than an excuse people use for not putting in serious resources and effort to making a suicidal person's life better.

That is such a fucking strawman if I ever saw one. No one here is implying that they should live with their problems. Did it ever occur to you this whole time that people persuading those who are suicidal from committing suicide feel that there is an actual solution to their problems? How fucking dense are you to assume that we expect suicidal people to simply live with their problems? Didn't Zero already make this point clear?

[Nova Andromeda]

If they don't wish to endure them suicide may be an entirely rational option. I must again stress it isn't for any one else to decide what another person does or does not want from life.

You don't get it. What one wants has little to do with whether or not they can think rationally. Assuming that there is a better solution (And in many cases, there is), it is irrational to choose the poorer solution.

--Clearly you have a blind spot here and have entirey missed the point. What constitutes a "better solution" entirely depends on what a person whats from life. Perhaps there is "better solution" they haven't thought of, but in the end they must decide if your alternative is really a "better solution". Furthermore, this is only one part of my argument.

Demanding that people simply live with their problem is a piss poor solution and no better than an excuse people use for not putting in serious resources and effort to making a suicidal person's life better.

That is such a fucking strawman if I ever saw one. No one here is implying that they should live with their problems.

--Perhaps you should learn to read:

Even if a problem doesn't and won't go away, it doesn't mean people can't adapt to it and find a way to still live their goddamned lives.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

--Clearly you have a blind spot here and have entirey missed the point. What constitutes a "better solution" entirely depends on what a person whats from life. Perhaps there is "better solution" they haven't thought of, but in the end they must decide if your alternative is really a "better solution".

That's bullshit. You completely presume that other people are totally incapable of understanding what suicidal people want. Your mentality that since non-suicidal people are not experiencing the same pain as suicidal people, they must be totally in capable of understanding their needs or wants flies completely in the face of the ability for humans to empathize and relate other people. What constitutes as a better solution depends entirely on what they want from life but you ignore the fact that the suicidal person may not know the best way to getting what they want from life. You've given no thought whatsoever to the fact that, in many cases, suicidal people lack the rational functionality to assess the situation properly and formulate multiple solutions to their achieving their goals.

Furthermore, this is only one part of my argument.

And as I understand it, your other part of the argument fails to make the distinction between thought process irrationality and the irrationality of desires. No one here is disputing that their desire to kill themselves is a rational decision to alleviating pain. What you don't get is in the face of other solutions to alleviating pain that do not involve killing themselves, their state of mind do not allow themselves to thoroughly consider those options since suicide is the most apparent, simplest and fastest solution.

[Nova Andromeda]

--Clearly you have a blind spot here and have entirey missed the point. What constitutes a "better solution" entirely depends on what a person whats from life. Perhaps there is "better solution" they haven't thought of, but in the end they must decide if your alternative is really a "better solution".

That's bullshit. You completely presume that other people are totally incapable of understanding what suicidal people want. Your mentality that since non-suicidal people are not experiencing the same pain as suicidal people, they must be totally in capable of understanding their needs or wants flies completely in the face of the ability for humans to empathize and relate other people. What constitutes as a better solution depends entirely on what they want from life but you ignore the fact that the suicidal person may not know the best way to getting what they want from life. You've given no thought whatsoever to the fact that, in many cases, suicidal people lack the rational functionality to assess the situation properly and formulate multiple solutions to their achieving their goals.

Furthermore, this is only one part of my argument.

And as I understand it, your other part of the argument fails to make the distinction between thought process irrationality and the irrationality of desires. No one here is disputing that their desire to kill themselves is a rational decision to alleviating pain. What you don't get is in the face of other solutions to alleviating pain that do not involve killing themselves, their state of mind do not allow themselves to thoroughly consider those options since suicide is the most apparent, simplest and fastest solution.

--You're only digging a deaper hole for yourself. Of course I realize people can empathize with others, but there are serious limits to that ability that should not be ignored. It appears as though you would like to prohibit (not just delay) suicide if a person's reasons don't suit you. Such arrogance is disturbing. It's not your life and not your decision to make.
-I'm not suggesting all suicidal people are rational which you seem to believe. That depends on the person and most people are irrational regardless of whether they are suicidal. However, you simply refuse to admit that suicide can be a perfectly reasonable option in certain circumstances and that there are suicidal people that can properly weigh all the options. The reason for pointing this out that it is arrogant and counter productive to treat a suicidal person as if they are irrational (and therefore unfit to end their life) simply for being suicidal. One should first gain an understanding of what they want from life and their situation in it before making a judgement. Otherwise you are just another used car salesman who, in the end, isn't at all interested in what the other person wants and just wants to convince them to keep on living.
--BTW, stop trying to speak for others and stick to speaking for yourself.

[haas mark]

Broomstick - I don't know if you're even paying any mind to the thread anymore but I have a question for you.

HOW is suicide selfish? You claim over and over again that it is, but I have yet to see you show how it is. Several examples have been given how it may not be selfish, but you've ignored that, and said that it is anyway. How is it selfish?

[Pint0 Xtreme]

--You're only digging a deaper hole for yourself. Of course I realize people can empathize with others, but there are serious limits to that ability that should not be ignored. It appears as though you would like to prohibit (not just delay) suicide if a person's reasons don't suit you. Such arrogance is disturbing. It's not your life and not your decision to make.

Though there are limits to how much one can empathize, you are treating it as if the ability to empathize has a negligible effect on anyone's capability to understand suicidal people's desires. What a suicidal person wants and how to achieve it aren't as subjective as you constantly portray it to be. There are obvious, objective criteria that both parties can agree to when assessing the validity of a given solution, such as "Will my goal be achieved with this solution?" If solution A is better than solution B but due to a suicidal's person inability to seriously consider solution B, by your own reasoning, you would let them choose solution B because no one is capable of understanding what a suicidal person wants and if they claim they do, they're arrogant.

-I'm not suggesting all suicidal people are rational which you seem to believe. That depends on the person and most people are irrational regardless of whether they are suicidal. However, you simply refuse to admit that suicide can be a perfectly reasonable option in certain circumstances and that there are suicidal people that can properly weigh all the options.

Granted that there are situations where there may be valid reasons to end one's life

Perhaps I'm not the only one that needs to learn how to read.

The reason for pointing this out that it is arrogant and counter productive to treat a suicidal person as if they are irrational (and therefore unfit to end their life) simply for being suicidal. One should first gain an understanding of what they want from life and their situation in it before making a judgement.

How to treat a suicidal person has absolutely no relevance whatsoever to whether or not they are irrational. This is a red herring.

Otherwise you are just another used car salesman who, in the end, isn't at all interested in what the other person wants and just wants to convince them to keep on living.

Yes, why don't we all just oversimplify things and accuse anyone that wants to prevent suicide as selfish who concern for only their wants and not what the suicidal person wants. Of course, non-suicidal people are incapable of understanding what suicidal people want or realizing any other alternative solutions that don't involve killing yourself.

--BTW, stop trying to speak for others and stick to speaking for yourself.

The irony here is so thick, you can slice it. Perhaps you should stop speaking for others since you've demonstrated such a poor ability to understand other people's intentions, while hypocritically accusing others of your own weakness.

[Zero]

Anecdotal evidence is useless. That aside, depression is rarely the underlying cause and usually a symptom of other serious problems. Those problems vary and depending on whether they can be fixed or how severe they are a person may not wish to endure them. If they don't wish to endure them suicide may be an entirely rational option. I must again stress it isn't for any one else to decide what another person does or does not want from life.

Anecdotal evidence ought to trump a random hypothetical any day. You've claimed that it's possible for depression to be so bad that killing yourself is actually worth it, and you never showed any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of your claim. I was just pointing to my own contrary experiences, not claiming that all cases must be like my own. Back up your own shit.

--"it wasn't permanent" == "it" will "go away" because you don't specify any requirement for "it" to go away where "it" is depression. This is clearly wrong as you admit, but you still fail to admit that whether it does go away largly depends on whether there is an acceptable solution to the underlying problem. Demanding that people simply live with their problem is a piss poor solution and no better than an excuse people use for not putting in serious resources and effort to making a suicidal person's life better.

I can't demand that anyone live their lives anyways, but I can still argue that suicide is a fucking stupid decision, as it destroys all ability to ever make such decisions again. And don't strawman me into opting out of actually helping people out of fucked up situations. I never said that, I just indicated that there are usually solutions to life's difficulties. Helping to fix the fuckups is the next rational step. Don't claim again that I'd opt out of actually helping people.

-I've already said that arguing over whether a person wishing to end their life is rational or not is pointless (unless it is to decide how to help said person). A person wants what they want. Nevertheless, unjustly accussing a suicidal person of being irrational simply for being suicidal and then declaring that if their problems cannot be solved then they should just live with it only makes matters worse. In the end, perhaps nothing can be done to solve a person's problems, but if that time comes and they wish to end their life then one shouldn't demand that they "deal with it" and live on. Instead one should respect their right to die and simply ask (or beg) for the sake of others that the person continue with life instead.

How is it pointless to argue the rationality of suicide? Every suicidal fellow I've ever known hasn't wanted an end to life so much as an end to his pain, or to the various problems of his existance. Letting someone off themself doesn't fix the root of the problem either, which is their fucked up life. Just saying simply "well, they have a right to off themselves" is basically admitting that you don't care to help them with their problems, and think that death as a solution is good.

Now, there are extreme situations where there are completely valid reasons one could choose to end their own life, but most suicidal folks don't fall into this category.

-I have reasons for which I cannot answer your last question. However, I can say that there are reasons I would consider suicide and they go far beyond the "sitting on one's death bed with terminal cancer" senario. I also know what depression is like, but it isn't a reason I would end my life.

Ah, reasons. It doesn't matter. After all, personal experience with the matter at hand is useless.

--Clearly you have a blind spot here and have entirey missed the point. What constitutes a "better solution" entirely depends on what a person whats from life. Perhaps there is "better solution" they haven't thought of, but in the end they must decide if your alternative is really a "better solution". Furthermore, this is only one part of my argument.

No matter what a person wants from life, they can't get it from death.

--You're only digging a deaper hole for yourself. Of course I realize people can empathize with others, but there are serious limits to that ability that should not be ignored. It appears as though you would like to prohibit (not just delay) suicide if a person's reasons don't suit you. Such arrogance is disturbing. It's not your life and not your decision to make.

What serious limits are those? Some people are better at empathizing than others. Yes, it's impossible to completely be someone else, but it isn't that tricky to figure out their motives based on how humans typically act towards getting what they want, and how they act. That, and the simple act of actually talking to them can help get inside their head a bit. And I would try to stop a suicide if the reasons didn't suit me. It's their life, but there are other solutions available, and if there aren't, then their reasons suit me. If there are other means, then the fucker's likely to thank me some day.

-I'm not suggesting all suicidal people are rational which you seem to believe. That depends on the person and most people are irrational regardless of whether they are suicidal. However, you simply refuse to admit that suicide can be a perfectly reasonable option in certain circumstances and that there are suicidal people that can properly weigh all the options. The reason for pointing this out that it is arrogant and counter productive to treat a suicidal person as if they are irrational (and therefore unfit to end their life) simply for being suicidal. One should first gain an understanding of what they want from life and their situation in it before making a judgement. Otherwise you are just another used car salesman who, in the end, isn't at all interested in what the other person wants and just wants to convince them to keep on living.

Aside from the extreme positions, which are the only ones you seem interested in discussing, suicide is irrational. I'm not suggesting all suicide is irrational either. The typical suicidal person is someone who's depressed because he's missing some of the things he wants in life, and seeks a release instead of a solution. I'm not a used car salesmen if I advocate getting what they want above giving up everything they have.

[Nova Andromeda]

If solution A is better than solution B but due to a suicidal's person inability to seriously consider solution B, by your own reasoning, you would let them choose solution B because no one is capable of understanding what a suicidal person wants and if they claim they do, they're arrogant.

Perhaps you should stop speaking for others since you've demonstrated such a poor ability to understand other people's intentions, while hypocritically accusing others of your own weakness.

--I tire of the distortion, misrepresentation, and hyperbole. It's pathetic and I don't have time to waste on scum like you.
-The point remains: you are an arrogant bastard that wants to set the rules for whether a person can end their own life. If a person truly wants to die it is should be their choice regardless of whether their reasons are rational, irrational, or even just plain unknown.

However, you simply refuse to admit that suicide can be a perfectly reasonable option in certain circumstances and that there are suicidal people that can properly weigh all the options.

Granted that there are situations where there may be valid reasons to end one's life

Perhaps I'm not the only one that needs to learn how to read.

--No shit, I'm sure there are plenty of other idiots that can't read either, but I'm not one of them.

[Nova Andromeda]

Anecdotal evidence is useless. That aside, depression is rarely the underlying cause and usually a symptom of other serious problems. Those problems vary and depending on whether they can be fixed or how severe they are a person may not wish to endure them. If they don't wish to endure them suicide may be an entirely rational option. I must again stress it isn't for any one else to decide what another person does or does not want from life.

Anecdotal evidence ought to trump a random hypothetical any day.

-No. It shouldn't.

You've claimed that it's possible for depression to be so bad that killing yourself is actually worth it, and you never showed any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, of your claim.

-I don't remember saying that, but obviously if it is bad, it won't end, and there are no realistic solutions then suicide is a viable solution.

I can't demand that anyone live their lives anyways, ...

-Actually, I can be locked up under "suicide watch" for telling someone I might kill myself. I don't know what the laws are like where you live, but clearly it is possible for you to make such a demand.

... but I can still argue that suicide is a fucking stupid decision, as it destroys all ability to ever make such decisions again.

-That's a rather dumb bit of reasoning. According to that logic noone should ever make a decision that has serious permenant ramifications.

-I've already said that arguing over whether a person wishing to end their life is rational or not is pointless (unless it is to decide how to help said person). A person wants what they want. Nevertheless, unjustly accussing a suicidal person of being irrational simply for being suicidal and then declaring that if their problems cannot be solved then they should just live with it only makes matters worse. In the end, perhaps nothing can be done to solve a person's problems, but if that time comes and they wish to end their life then one shouldn't demand that they "deal with it" and live on. Instead one should respect their right to die and simply ask (or beg) for the sake of others that the person continue with life instead.

How is it pointless to argue the rationality of suicide?

-Because a person can want irrational things so unless you plan to use that information for something else like I suggested it doesn't matter.

Every suicidal fellow I've ever known hasn't wanted an end to life so much as an end to his pain, or to the various problems of his existance. Letting someone off themself doesn't fix the root of the problem either, ...

-The fixing problems you refer to is only a means to an end. That end can be obtained via other methods such as death.

... which is their fucked up life. Just saying simply "well, they have a right to off themselves" is basically admitting that you don't care to help them with their problems, and think that death as a solution is good.

-Letting someone make the final decision on life or death isn't incompatable with helping them. For instance, I can offer someone an easy means to solve their worldly problems and still let them end their life instead. Fortunately, most people will opt for the easy solution and life.

No matter what a person wants from life, they can't get it from death.

-Hyperbole huh? So if a person wants a life free of extended pain and suffering and they have cancer?

Of course I realize people can empathize with others, but there are serious limits to that ability that should not be ignored.

What serious limits are those? Some people are better at empathizing than others.

-Some people are just really good salesmen and most people suck at empathy unless they've had common experiences. One only need think about any major cultural / political / religious division to realize this.

And I would try to stop a suicide if the reasons didn't suit me. It's their life, but there are other solutions available, and if there aren't, then their reasons suit me.

-The bottom line is you want to decide what someone else can do because you think x, y, or z is better. The same reasoning can be used to justify outlawing skydiving.

Aside from the extreme positions, which are the only ones you seem interested in discussing, ...

-Since we largly agree on the common situations.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Self-preservation is the most basic instinct for any living creature. I don't think there can be any clearer symptom of insanity than the lack of it.

I disagree. Avoidance of negative stimuli is much more basic, such as pain.

It's irrational because the depression will pass, and death won't. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

And if the problem is permanent ?

Did it ever occur to you this whole time that people persuading those who are suicidal from committing suicide feel that there is an actual solution to their problems?

And if there is no solution ?

I can think of a number of fates I would consider worse than death, as well as an enormous number of modes of death I'd prefer painless suicide over. As far as I'm concerned, suicide when faced with those circumstances would be a perfectly reasonable choice.

People complain about the selfishness of suicides; what about the selfishness of those who insist you live, no matter what you want, no matter the amount of agony ? Why does the suicide's life belong to them, instead of him or her ?

[SWPIGWANG]

I don't get those that says that suicide is irrational, as if it is the only irrational thing that exists.

Life itself is irrational. The is not as if babies comes into existence after developing an if and only if proof mandating their existence.

Why is it presumed that living has any value over death? Short of some arbitary denotological or religious reason, there is no reason to think life is 'better' and has to be taken over death in all sistuations.

Death is merely a reduction of natural lifespan, and most people are doing that all the time without too much effort. (through lifestyle) Suicide just makes it happen faster.

[Rye]

HOW is suicide selfish? You claim over and over again that it is, but I have yet to see you show how it is. Several examples have been given how it may not be selfish, but you've ignored that, and said that it is anyway. How is it selfish?

Well, it's down to semantics, remember, a guy that commits suicide for selfless reasons is giving the ultimate sacrifice, not something as bad as suicide.

Even if suicide is selfish, so what? If a person suddenly realises that their life will never satisfy them, they'll just be trapped in "data processing" till age 70, then get put in a retirement home and have potentially sadistic nurses help you piss for 15 years before popping your clogs, and you have no responsibilities to anyone else, why would it be so bad for him to kill himself? This way, he doesn't have to get up for another day's drudgery and irrelevence, he can just opt out.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

--I tire of the distortion, misrepresentation, and hyperbole.

How the fuck is that a distortion or misrepresentation, you little dipshit? According to your reasoning, you would consider any kind of suicide intervention as wrong. You give virtually no credit to human understanding and don't consider for a moment that persuading a suicidal person from killing themselves can actually be in the person's best interest viewed from their point of view.

-The point remains: you are an arrogant bastard that wants to set the rules for whether a person can end their own life. If a person truly wants to die it is should be their choice regardless of whether their reasons are rational, irrational, or even just plain unknown.

Wow, Look! Retarded dipshit that underestimates human understanding fails to fathom the idea that suicide intervention doesn't to equate controlling other people's lives. How surprising.

However, you simply refuse to admit that suicide can be a perfectly reasonable option in certain circumstances and that there are suicidal people that can properly weigh all the options.

Granted that there are situations where there may be valid reasons to end one's life

Perhaps I'm not the only one that needs to learn how to read.

--No shit, I'm sure there are plenty of other idiots that can't read either, but I'm not one of them.

Is there something wrong with your eyes? I've just quoted myself contradicting your accusation that I refuse to admit that suicide can be a reasonable option. You may be right that there are probably some suicidal people who can properly weigh all the options. I'll give you that. But you can't deny I caught you in your stupid little assumption.

It's pathetic and I don't have time to waste on scum like you.

You know what's pathetic? Failing to address my fucking points while making claims of distortion without explanation and re-iterating your bullshit about what you think I want like a broken record. For someone who accuses other people of being arrogant, you're displaying a great deal of arrogance yourself, you stupid hypocrite.

[FSTargetDrone]

Then there's things like the people jumping to the death from the WTC on 9/11... What a horrible choice to make: death by fire or death by gravity. Whole different set of emotions there.

With all respect (and please do not take this as anything other than a small tangential observation or some kind of hair splitting) I wouldn't even consider a situation like this a "suicide." I think it's more just to get away from the fire and horror. It's not that any of those people wanted to die at all, they just could not stand to stay where they were.

I shudder to even comprehend dealing with a situation like that. Seeing it on television was a unique horror.