Krenim time ship vs. the Empire

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-22 07:40pm

I was just wondering what SD.net's official stance on this piece of technology is. I searched and couldn't find a thread on the subject.

Of all Trek technology, this seems to be one of the most deadly types, and it seems like it might actually have the potential to hurt the Empire.

However, I can think of several good arguments against it:

1. Even though it is supposed to be 'removed from space and time', you can still see it, so lasers would probably work on it.

2. Star Wars ships have that temporal adjuster thing for hyperspace, so that might protect them from the time beam like Voyager's temporal shields did.

3. The Force transcends space and time so a Sith Lord could just force choke the ship's commander.

Still, if it managed to get in position to fire its weapon on an Imperial planet, it could cause some trouble.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-22 07:45pm

'Official' stance? I didn't know we put out such things. Whose got hte memos, out with it?

The consensus, however, is that time travel in Trek operates by leaping into other timelines; it's the only real explanation for it all, and it's certainly blatantly made clear in an ep or two(It raises questions on why the hell the 29th Century Feds police time travel, but who the hell knows?).

This would indicate the Krenim would simply shift to a universe where history didn't play out the same.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-22 07:47pm

Vivftp had posted an objection to that theory on sb.com, but I forget what it was at the moment. Maybe he'll come in and say it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-22 07:49pm

It's also worth noting that altered timelines are unstable. Guinan could even tell that her own timeline was fucked up in "Yesterday's Enterprise", and precedent in Trek indicates that when the person who altered the timeline dies, the alterations die with him. That happens to be exactly what happened to the Krenim timeship, by the way; when it was finally blown up, everything reverted as if it had never happened.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-22 07:52pm

I thought that was because the ship erased itself by accident.

Though it's been a long time since I've seen the episode.

Although time travel in Trek is weird, I will admit.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-22 07:53pm

So go find this 'objection' vivftp had on SB.com. We could all use a laugh.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-22 07:55pm

I'm having trouble logging on to the SB forums at the moment.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-22 07:59pm

OmegaGuy wrote:I thought that was because the ship erased itself by accident.

Though it's been a long time since I've seen the episode.

Although time travel in Trek is weird, I will admit.

The fundamental problem is they try to make their character immune to paradoxs. And ships immune to paradoxs. Which is.. Well, logically impossible. Physical impossibilities are easy to handle. You just invent some science and a half-plausible, preferrably behind-the-scenes explanation. Logical impossibilities can't be resolved, because no amount of technology makes 1+1=2.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-22 08:00pm

No, man. Enough temporal shielding can protect you from pure logic.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2006-04-22 08:03pm

OmegaGuy wrote:Vivftp had posted an objection to that theory on sb.com, but I forget what it was at the moment. Maybe he'll come in and say it.

He can object all he likes; it doesn't alter what's been explicitly depicted in the various Trek series.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-22 08:04pm

I forget what it was but it had something to do with how we saw the 'time wave' travel past its target or something like that.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-22 08:12pm

OmegaGuy wrote:I forget what it was but it had something to do with how we saw the 'time wave' travel past its target or something like that.

In other words, 'I think it does this and I must be right!' as opposed to, say, using the knowns and concluding it's the mother of all cross-time portals.

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2006-04-22 08:13pm

Stark wrote:So go find this 'objection' vivftp had on SB.com. We could all use a laugh.

Indeed. vivftp could make for an interesting fanfic writer with his imagination, but this stuff depends far too much on extrapolation with little regard for science and evidence. The likelihood it rests on flimsy evidence and bailing wire approaches 100%.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-22 08:23pm

I sent him a PM to ask him.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-04-22 09:38pm

Screw it. This is just to good to pass up. Nit, I realize that was almost inevitably a typo but you need no technology whatsoever to make 1+1=2.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-22 10:19pm

LOL, I didn't catch that.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-04-23 05:51am

The effects of the timeship in YOH were probably meant to show a single timeline, since those who had proper protection could observe the universe changing, which I think wouldn't work if the timeship simply jumped to another timeline.

1. Even though it is supposed to be 'removed from space and time', you can still see it, so lasers would probably work on it.

Concentional weapons can damage the ship,that's why Janeway attacked and rammed it. It's not a warship; it's slow as molasses compared to Trek ships and has limited weaponry (IIRC the Voyager survived several hits despite being held together by tape and hope, it was the first collision that disbaled the ship)

There's also the question wether the new timeline you create is any better then the old one. Wipe out Anakin and you're still faced with a slightly-different Republic...

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-04-23 05:53am

Ghetto edit: ignore the first paragraph above

Kane Starkiller · Post by **Kane Starkiller** » 2006-04-23 06:36am

Darth Wong wrote:That happens to be exactly what happened to the Krenim timeship, by the way; when it was finally blown up, everything reverted as if it had never happened.

Are you sure about this? IIRC the collision with Voyager caused an internal "temporal incursion" thus deleting Krenim ship itself from history and reverting everything back to normal. It wasn't just the destruction of the ship.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-04-23 06:40am

Are you sure about this? IIRC the collision with Voyager caused an internal "temporal incursion" thus deleting Krenim ship itself from history and reverting everything back to normal. It wasn't just the destruction of the ship.

The "temporal core" doohickey overloaded IIRC. History was reset and in the "new" version of events it's heavily implied that Annorax chose to spend time with his family rather then build his timeship (at the end of the episode, his wife calles him to dinner, he stares at the blueprints for the timeship on his laptop, and then walks away).

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-23 12:41pm

The idea of a "cosmic censor" which prevents real changes to the timeline is also worth noting. No less a luminary than Dr. Stephen Hawking has alluded to the possible necessity of such a cosmic force if time travel were possible. That might explain why major timeline changes erase themselves upon the death of the individual who caused them.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-23 05:47pm

Vivftp send me his explanation:

vivftp wrote:The reason is what happens when the Timeship causes a temporal incursion on the Garrinar (sp?) homeworld. The temporal wave went out, Voyager detected it, all was pretty normal there. The wave passed through Voyager, which was protected by its temporal shields and before the wave hit it, they could still see the beefy Krenim warship on their viewscreen. While the wave went through the Krenim warship they saw it transform before their eyes into a puny little ship which fit with the new changes to the timeline.

Now, if the theory of the timeship jumping to a different universe were true, then of course Voyager would have had to somehow been dragged along with it when the wave hit because it was there in the same universe with the timeship before and after this event occured. Well the first objection here is, how do these temporal shields just happen to cause Voyager to be dragged into this new universe? If Voyager were simply protected from anything going on outside, shouldn't it have stayed put in the universe it was in with the beefy Krenim Warship in front of it?

I'd imagine the argument against that is that the shields, for whatever unexplained reason caused Voyager to be sucked into this new universe. That might do to explain it, but still doesn't explain the next point.

The other point is what we see on the screen. We see Voyager viewing the warship as it's turned into a tiny ship. How are they seeing the before and after if they were already somehow transported to another universe?

The likely conclusion is that the Timeship, unlike most, if not all other examples of temporal tech in Trek (I can't say all, since I haven't personally analyzed them all and don't know if there are any other oddities like this), modifies the universe it's in with its temporal incursions.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-23 06:02pm

The more precise question is: Why does Voyager enter the region if it's warlike? Those who actually saw the episode know they picked the route because the dominant power was peaceful. When the incursion rewrites history, it's now warlike; why would Voyager remain?

Of course, we can resolve the 'BUT WAAAAAI WOULD TEMPORAL SHIELDS DO DAT?!' easily: They're a kitbash and hope, spit and prayer put together. Instead of being washed over by the wave and remaining where they should be, they get carried along by some quirk of the underlying science that isn't known.

The 'BUT WE SEE BOOOOTH!' is simply the effect of transitioning; briefly seeing two universe sumperimposed on one another.

In short, it's uninformed assumptions and assertions.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-23 06:06pm

vivftp wrote:The reason is what happens when the Timeship causes a temporal incursion on the Garrinar (sp?) homeworld.

Ask him to provide a physics definition of a "temporal incursion".

The temporal wave went out, Voyager detected it, all was pretty normal there. The wave passed through Voyager, which was protected by its temporal shields and before the wave hit it, they could still see the beefy Krenim warship on their viewscreen. While the wave went through the Krenim warship they saw it transform before their eyes into a puny little ship which fit with the new changes to the timeline.

Ask him to provide the controlling equations of the wave function so that we can see how his model predicts events. Seriously, he's just throwing around meaningless technobabble as if it can be used to generate models.

Now, if the theory of the timeship jumping to a different universe were true, then of course Voyager would have had to somehow been dragged along with it when the wave hit because it was there in the same universe with the timeship before and after this event occured.

Obviously. Why is that a problem?

Well the first objection here is, how do these temporal shields just happen to cause Voyager to be dragged into this new universe?

That question seems much less problematic than asking how they protect the crew from never having been born in the first place, which is the inevitable paradox question posed by the unified-timeline interpretation.

If Voyager were simply protected from anything going on outside, shouldn't it have stayed put in the universe it was in with the beefy Krenim Warship in front of it?

You can't be "protected" from logic. Logically, if you were never born, then you won't be here right now. So unless these are anti-logic shields, they can't work this way.

I'd imagine the argument against that is that the shields, for whatever unexplained reason caused Voyager to be sucked into this new universe. That might do to explain it, but still doesn't explain the next point.

The other point is what we see on the screen. We see Voyager viewing the warship as it's turned into a tiny ship. How are they seeing the before and after if they were already somehow transported to another universe?

Obviously because the transition is perceived that way. Unless he has some compelling reason why the transition into another universe could not possibly appear that way, this is a non-criticism.

The likely conclusion is that the Timeship, unlike most, if not all other examples of temporal tech in Trek (I can't say all, since I haven't personally analyzed them all and don't know if there are any other oddities like this), modifies the universe it's in with its temporal incursions.

And a "shield" somehow protects people from the effects of never having been born. Yeah, right. As if this makes better sense than the time-traveler existing in an unstable pocket universe, especially after we've confirmed the existence of parallel universes in Trek.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-23 06:16pm

Why can't vivftp speak for himself? Was he banned?

Rhetorical questions kind of suck for constructing "analysis." Its almost like a wussy way of saying things, like there's nothing really to say at all. It's more useful when you can't outright say what you want to say because you don't want to offend somebody (or you want to make that person think), but if he wants to say it why not just say it outright.

Brian