Krenim time ship vs. the Empire

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-23 06:17pm

Now to see if he comes in here to defend himself.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-23 06:18pm

OmegaGuy wrote:Now to see if he comes in here to defend himself.

He's been here before. Not banned that I can tell, but flushed more than once then.. Vanished. Can't say I'm upset.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-23 06:28pm

OmegaGuy wrote:Now to see if he comes in here to defend himself.

Why can't you debate him on your own? Have to run to big daddies on SD.net to get an argument against Krenim timeship? Honestly to me it seems like nothing more than flamebait, especially since vivftp has an account here and to my knowledge he hasn't been banned, so he can speak for himself. Vivftp may or may not be watching this thread, he may or may not care and he doesn't have to run around to defend himself when he hasn't spoken directly. Unless he asked you to post his opinion here it seems almost childish like you want him to come in here and get ripped without doing any of the work yourself.

Time travel isn't exactly a new SF novum. The obvious counter argument is grandfather paradox.

Brian

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-23 06:34pm

It's funny how vivftp's argument treats undefined terms as if they're real meaningful physics concepts, exactly as I described in the "Dumbest trolls" thread in the HoS.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-23 08:13pm

The simplest application of the 'cosmic censor' concept is that it becomes impossible to make the decision to violate causality. Professor Nutbar can build his bicycle-powered time machine all he wants - but as soon as he thinks about saving his dead wife or whatever, he stops due to the obvious paradox(he saves his dead wife, then he doesn't need to, so he does need to, so he does, so he doesn't need to, etc). I wonder how quickly such paradox feedback would propagate - it would be easiest to imagine a universe where such feedback occured instantly, so no paradox could exist for any length of time, but nothing happens instantly. Maybe you get a few hours like in Back to the Future?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-23 08:37pm

Yeah that's the simplest explanation, but things have happened in Star Trek that would violate casuality unless explained with some kind of "timeline inertia" or a parallel universe. Unless you think everybody in ST:FC was hallucinating, they saw 35 billion Borg on Earth.

I personally favor a new universe for each time travel for the more powerful kinds of time travel, and the rubber band or predestination for simple time travel. Time travel can be used as a weapon, but only by civilizations far in advance of the Federation like the Krenim or the Borg. So I think that in order to use time travel as a weapon, you need some kind of way to transition and create a new universe. The Krenim have it, the Borg have it, but the Federation probably doesn't or every guy with warp would use time travel. There might even be different kinds of time travel. Like a "simplistic" time travel that is subject to the inertia effect DW describes, and time travel that can actually be used as a weapon which would mean transitioning and creating a new universe.

Brian

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-23 08:43pm

That's why ST doesn't have 'real' time travel. Paradoxes are impossible, so it's impossible to take any action that would create one.

Perhaps, however, the ST universe has a slightly different censor - if you are going to create a paradox, rather than running it to it's conclusion and hence making it impossible to (save your dead wife), you merely get shunted into another (temporary) universe consistent with the result of the intervention. I guess on reflection the parallel universes thing is clearly the 'cosmic censor's preferred method of operation in ST.

I love how that guy went from 'hmm I want a time machine' to 'I'll build a whole ship with time torpedoes and shit without even the most basic test of the technology'. Classic Star Trek that is.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-04-23 09:34pm

What I'm stating is not analysis, just some fodder for the discussion.

The relative ease at which any federation ship seems to glide backwards in time flies in the face of how incredibly rarely they choose to do so to effect any real change. From flying around the sun to go past warp nine, to going from a cold startup to maximum warp backwards, to Temporal Authority ships and apparently this Kremin vessel, timetravel seems vastly more simple for Star Trek vessels than travelling across the galaxy. There is even a point where they contemplate sending an advanced vessel into the past, but dismiss it. I believe this is episode Wong mentioned, where Whoopie Goldberg knew time was broken.

Star Trek also uses a type of bizzare paradox-ignoring timetravel mechanism on occasion where we are shown Q trying to help Picard avoid doing something which will destroy Earth in the past, killing all of humanity before it evolved. It involved firing some sort of particle beam into a specific point in 3 points in time, though apparently all at once, causing a temporal catastrophe that works backwards in time. That's ugly enough, but if the thing works backwards in time and obliterates humanity in the future, how is the trio of Picards (in the episode) supposed to be able to cause it in the past, future, and present?

Then there's Generations, where time travel is again used to prevent an action from occuring (after it does) by going back for a second chance. And then there's Starfleet's own Temporal police ships, which seem capable of sliding through time on their own. Armed with weapons far superior to 'present' level Trek, they sure would have been real useful back in the Original Series. There's also an example of a man from the past claiming to be from the future covertly collecting bits of Federation technology with the intention of returning to the past and claiming they are his inventions. Why not do so willingly? I doubt the Empire would have many qualms about sending advanced weapons back in time.

The question is, however, if time travel is apparently to common and easy to do that Starfleet has it's own agency dedicated to interviewing and investigating changes in the timeline (aka, the interviews at the end of The Trouble with Tribble's famous time-shift back to the Kirk days) why do they never use it in other times of dire need? In DS9, the Federation was stretched to the breaking point by warfare, yet you never hear a discussion about going back into the past and warning people about the Dominion. Would it be impossible to do so?

However, DS9 is a useful example also because of the wormhole aliens, which experience nonlinear time and dicker around in the past to produce a desired outcome in the future. So it seems that it is not theoretically impossible to go back, change something, and benefit from it.

The question is, why not do it to save humanity from the Klingons or the Galactic Empire if you can do it to save humanity from the Whale Probe? In the instance of the Whale Probe incident, shouldn't that have reverted when Kirk died? This leads to a no limits problem of the highest order. The Borg tried to use it to gank the Federation before they were ever a spacefaring people--are we to assume a cosmic censor conspired, somehow, to aid the Federation victory, or that this would have been as possible as Kirk's whale abduction?

I'm not sure what to conclude from all this. Is there a cosmic censor? It seems to always rule in the Federation's favor. They seem capable of doing this, so capable that it's not even debated, but are incredibly unwilling to. There does seem to be some degree of instability with these timelines, but only when dramatically appropriate.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-23 09:43pm

Nobody has "real" time travel Stark. "Real" time travel doesn't mean anything. I know you're a Dr. Who fan (I think) but sorry, the same criticism can apply to it.

I think the best explanation is the parallel universes since we've seen it so much.

You can't claim it's not analysis to avoid criticism of your ideas Covenant, sorry.

I think the best idea is cosmic censor for the mundane kind of warp travel, and for the more powerful types like the Krenim and the Borg probably the creation of a parallel universe. The Borg probably understand that creating a parallel universe doesn't actually change the original universe so they probably have philosophical problems with it.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-23 09:44pm

The easiest way to explain it is that the Past is unchangable, save in extremely rare instances(The Nexus is a good example).

The 'Go Around The Sun' doesn't violate this; Bringing two whales back wouldn't produce noticable effects in the present, so, as a last-ditch, they attempt it to see if the past allows for such.

The Cosmic Censure in Hawking's view is essentially the universe conspiring against you. The gun you use to shoot your grandfather will always jam, etc.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-04-23 10:10pm

SirNitram wrote:The easiest way to explain it is that the Past is unchangable, save in extremely rare instances(The Nexus is a good example).

Does it really? Sometimes I wonder if everything past Generations isn't just Picard's Nexus fantasy... you have to admit, it would explain ActionPicard in First Contact, Insurrection and Nemesis.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-23 10:12pm

Oh please, Brian. There are all kinds of novels featuring explorations of well-thought out time travel. Star Trek isn't it, and your pathetic attempt to invoke Doctor Who notwithstanding, I don't believe you can draw useful ideas about realistic time travel from a kids show with a flying box. In any case, the ramifications of time travel have been considered by Einstein and Hawking - does that not mean anything either?

Nitram, I conceptalised the 'cosmic censor' as an expression of the impossibility of paradox - since the probability of a paradox is apparently zero, the probability of any action that CAUSES a paradox is also zero. However, since the most common example features people wanting to change things, it's obvious that would be impossible, as the decision is contingent on the very thing you want to change. Erm, I'm rambling.

Cao Cao · Post by **Cao Cao** » 2006-04-23 10:14pm

Stark wrote:I don't believe you can draw useful ideas about realistic time travel from a kids show with a flying box.

That's flying police box to you, heretic.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-23 10:15pm

Cao Cao wrote:
SirNitram wrote:The easiest way to explain it is that the Past is unchangable, save in extremely rare instances(The Nexus is a good example).
Does it really? Sometimes I wonder if everything past Generations isn't just Picard's Nexus fantasy... you have to admit, it would explain ActionPicard in First Contact, Insurrection and Nemesis.

I think when the E-E couldn't produce his favorite type of Earl Grey, all those years of pent up emotion just made him snap, man.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-23 10:31pm

Stark wrote:Oh please, Brian. There are all kinds of novels featuring explorations of well-thought out time travel. Star Trek isn't it, and your pathetic attempt to invoke Doctor Who notwithstanding, I don't believe you can draw useful ideas about realistic time travel from a kids show with a flying box. In any case, the ramifications of time travel have been considered by Einstein and Hawking - does that not mean anything either?

Real in the context of a versus just means whether the change can be permanent or not, in other words used as a weapon. That's all I meant, not whether time travel is possible or not. That's what I thought you meant by real too. Cosmic censor doesn't change need for a parallel universe, at least a temporary one. Unless you think ST:FC was predestination, which isn't really a cosmic censor.

Nitram, I conceptalised the 'cosmic censor' as an expression of the impossibility of paradox - since the probability of a paradox is apparently zero, the probability of any action that CAUSES a paradox is also zero. However, since the most common example features people wanting to change things, it's obvious that would be impossible, as the decision is contingent on the very thing you want to change. Erm, I'm rambling.

We already see the 35 billion Borg on Earth, so there's one of two possibilities since it's impossible for a paradox to happen. Either a parallel universe, or Picard and his men were wrong/hallucinating/sensors were wrong. Since we've seen parallel universes before in Trek I lean to the former. Time travel as a weapon is beyond the abilities of the Federation or any of its equals. The Borg may be able to do it since they can time travel without sling shotting around the sun, but since they failed it might be the cosmic censor erasing the new universe with the 35 billion Borg.

Brian

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-23 10:35pm

Brian, did you consider that the E-E was following the Borg through their Blue Special Effect, and they were *behind* them? Nobody knows how borg time travel works, but we've seen ST 'temporal shields' before and the E-E was inside the Special Effect. I'm pretty sure you can distort that into an explanation that doesn't require us to ignore all other ST time travel incidents.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-23 10:39pm

brianeyci wrote:We already see the 35 billion Borg on Earth, so there's one of two possibilities since it's impossible for a paradox to happen. Either a parallel universe, or Picard and his men were wrong/hallucinating/sensors were wrong. Since we've seen parallel universes before in Trek I lean to the former. Time travel as a weapon is beyond the abilities of the Federation or any of its equals. The Borg may be able to do it since they can time travel without sling shotting around the sun, but since they failed it might be the cosmic censor erasing the new universe with the 35 billion Borg.

Or the Borg wanted to make some pocket universe with assimilated humans which they could then bring back with them to their own timeline. If they could just do straight time travel at will, why travel all the way to Earth and fight their way through a gauntlet of heavy defenses when they could just do the timejump in their own territory and then fly to Earth through undefended space in the 20th century?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-23 10:46pm

Darth Wong wrote:Or the Borg wanted to make some pocket universe with assimilated humans which they could then bring back with them to their own timeline.

Now there's something I've never considered. Even if it's a cosmically tiny pocket universe, billions of Borg on hand is going to be devastating to Real-Earth once they start shipping them back into this universe in orbit or on the surface.

That's actually scary as shit, honestly.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-23 10:50pm

Darth Wong wrote:Or the Borg wanted to make some pocket universe with assimilated humans which they could then bring back with them to their own timeline. If they could just do straight time travel at will, why travel all the way to Earth and fight their way through a gauntlet of heavy defenses when they could just do the timejump in their own territory and then fly to Earth through undefended space in the 20th century?

They did it when they lost so it's obviously a last ditch attempt. My theory is that the Borg knew they were creating another universe, but were kind of hoping to cheat the cosmic censor and hoped the universe would be permanent. They gambled and lost, but a poor man doesn't have much to lose by gambling anyway.

If they really could create pocket universes and transfer people between them, the Borg would honestly be unstoppable. So it's probably unstable somehow.

Stark wrote:I'm pretty sure you can distort that into an explanation that doesn't require us to ignore all other ST time travel incidents.

Well somehow, either there were 35 billion Borg or they weren't. What do you pick?

Brian

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-04-23 11:18pm

Christ, don't be a fucking moron. I'll do it for you, shall I?

The Borg opened a ST time travel hole, and entered it. In that instant, they created a parallel universe where they went back and interfered with first contact, yada yada. Hence, the Earth was assimilated hundreds of years in the 'past', leaving billions of drones on Earth. They can see it 'already' because they're still in their Blue Special Effect.

Then the E-E follows them in, and sees it.

Shit, that was hard wasn't it?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2006-04-26 03:22am

Stark wrote:Shit, that was hard wasn't it?

No it wasn't. Actually I thought it up in two seconds, long ago the last time we talked about time travel and I realized that anti-logic temporal shields was stupid.

There's no difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying so there's nothing more to say. Bah tonguetwister.

Brian

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2006-04-26 04:10pm

Getting us back on track...

Why bother with a giant ship, when you can create a compact sidearm for an assasin?
A Temporal Incursion Blaster Rifle?

One need not take out Emperor Palpatine directly, only a number of undergarded Imperial officers and technicians who in the past were essential to the establishment of the Empire to begin with.

Erase from history a single man, a ship, a computer file, and tyrrany never arises.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-26 04:18pm

Enola Straight wrote:Getting us back on track...

Why bother with a giant ship, when you can create a compact sidearm for an assasin?
A Temporal Incursion Blaster Rifle?

One need not take out Emperor Palpatine directly, only a number of undergarded Imperial officers and technicians who in the past were essential to the establishment of the Empire to begin with.

Erase from history a single man, a ship, a computer file, and tyrrany never arises.

You didn't actually read the thread, did you, to see why the 'Temporal Incursion' being the same timeline is ridiculous?

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2006-04-26 05:36pm

What in all of Voyager isn't rediculous?

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2006-04-26 07:29pm

Enola Straight wrote:Why bother with a giant ship, when you can create a compact sidearm for an assasin?
A Temporal Incursion Blaster Rifle?

Isn't that like asking "Why bother with rocket launchers when you can create Nuclear bullets?"