something about blasters (couldn't think of a better title)

[Surlethe]

Surlethe

they were in position strictly to prevent the ships from escaping

And how exactly did they "prevent" anything in such a position? See above. It's rather strange. Space is not planar and definetely not linear, so putting 30 ship-fleet on the "line" of escape doesn't do shit. Ship gatherings aren't enough to prevent hyperjumps (at least, per novellisations and EU), and neither can such a formation prevent sublight escape.

Remember, jumping in a gravity well is exceedingly dangerous (ref. SWTC), and most ships (the Millenium Falcon a notable exception, IIRC) are equipped with systems which yank a ship from hyperspace when it experiences a gravitational field of more than 0.7 m/s/s. So the Imperial fleet needed only to prevent escape from the Sanctuary Moon's gravity well, which is what the two pincers were for. Note that the fleet covered the most direct route from the moon out into space, and was in a position to interdict any escape attempts.

They could've opened fire as they rounded the planet while the rebels emerged from hyperspace

They could not, because of the order.

They could have, but did not, because of the order.

both to keep themselves secret (the rebels were unaware of the Imperial fleet until it was in position, or shortly before) and to avoid scaring the rebel fleet away before the ships had closed the escape routes.

Heh. The order "not to open fire" was Palpatine's pure silliness, to demonstrate the DS2 power. Nothing more, because it bears no other sense whatsoever - once they were "in position" to blast the rebel fleet, they should've done it straightaway, and not wait for the rebels to go point-blank.

I agree; Palpatine was clearly overconfident in the Death Star's abilities and the security of the ground station. "In position" clearly indicates the rebel fleet was trapped, and so it would've been safe to reveal their location by opening fire.

More importantly, we need to rationalize the statements from the ICS

I thought it's the other way round (the ICS is supposed to rationalize the movies). I'd say more of it, but my DVD is currently off-hands, and speaking stuff out of air is not the best thing to do.

The ICS is supposed to rationalize the movies, but when we have apparent contradictions between canon, it's not good to throw one fact out if we can simply rationalize the contradiction away; as Dr Saxton writes in the SWTC:

"Only reject existing material where absolutely necessary. Story elements must have genuine continuity problems to justify discarding them; material shan't be thrown away simply because many people hold it to be repugnant or embarassing. The STAR WARS Holiday Special is a prime example. If a source is uncomfortable or incongruent at face value, it is often possible to add background circumstances to alter its significance and give a more realistic perspective.

Sources should be treated with a view towards unifying everything to give a coherent and concise internal reality to the STAR WARS universe. Wherever phenomena can be explained in several different ways, the theory to be favoured is that which requires the simplest and fewest postulates, and which entails the least ad hoc changes in time. Wherever possible, real physical principles must be applied for the assessment of theories. Common phenomena in technological and natural features of STAR WARS should have common causes."

However, I would like evidence of "horrible misses" in the close-distance battles.

See above. I need my DVDs for that.

Fair enough.

[K. A. Pital]

the Imperial fleet needed only to prevent escape from the Sanctuary Moon's gravity well, which is what the two pincers were for

That would be quite obvious if space was linear. Putting a fleet on the line of escape makes it impossible to pass. However, space is neither linear nor planar - there was a great multitude of options available, because we see that the Imp Fleet was ONLY covering ONE vector, and was tightly packed (what's the meaning in this again, if you're capable of blasting enemy to smithereens from a greater distance... I'm utterly confused - it would be infinetely better to disperse the ships in a hemispheric cordon (like the blockade of Naboo in TPM) - THAT would at least pretend to be an effective blockade...).

[Surlethe]

the Imperial fleet needed only to prevent escape from the Sanctuary Moon's gravity well, which is what the two pincers were for

That would be quite obvious if space was linear. Putting a fleet on the line of escape makes it impossible to pass. However, space is neither linear nor planar - there was a great multitude of options available, because we see that the Imp Fleet was ONLY covering ONE vector, and was tightly packed

The thing is, they don't need to cover the other vectors; the planet does that, and the rebel fleet can't escape the planet's gravity well with the Imperial fleet standing just outside of them. Think of it this way: they may try to escape around the planet, but the Imperial fleet can just follow them, and head them off before they can escape the gravitational well. Clearly, the rebel fleet is outnumbered and outgunned, so if it comes to an actual fleet engagement, they're screwed ("We won't last long against those Star Destroyers"). All the Imperial fleet has to do is sit there and put up a barrage of fire if the rebels try to escape.

(what's the meaning in this again, if you're capable of blasting enemy to smithereens from a greater distance... I'm utterly confused - it would be infinetely better to disperse the ships in a hemispheric cordon (like the blockade of Naboo in TPM) - THAT would at least pretend to be an effective blockade...).

I'm fairly certain both pincers were arranged hemispherically around the rebel fleet; and remember, they only have to stay outside the rebel fleet with respect to the planet, and eventually the rebels will be picked off by the Death Star or blown to pieces by the blockade if they try to escape.

It's notable that even after the Death Star began to fire, Admiral Ackbar still believed they could withdraw from the battle, so it's likely that the trap wasn't going to be 100% effective. I would expect the Imperial ships were clustered as they were to prevent a concentrated rebel breakthrough; remember, Palpatine's overconfidence prevented him from bringing in enough ships, so it's likely that the Imperial fleet was simply too small to be flexible in its positioning.

[Surlethe]

In any event, it sounds more like they had an interdictor or two during Endor.

The battles page on the main site mentions that the second Death Star possessed an interdiction field.

[K. A. Pital]

The thing is, they don't need to cover the other vectors

How so? In the movie, there's a vast, vast space around the tiny fleet.

I'm fairly certain both pincers were arranged hemispherically around the rebel fleet

In the movie we don't see that. There's a huge "formation" - a bulk of Imperial Fleet - in front of the Rebel fleet, however, around it - just empty space.

it's likely that the Imperial fleet was simply too small to be flexible in its positioning

Exactly. I see it that way - the Imperials had to open fire from their standing point and decimate the Rebels if they try to run (after all, they WILL be running under fire), however, they were totally unprepared for a head-on confrontation.

"We won't last long against those Star Destroyers"

Ackbars extrapolation skill was really bad in the movie. For all we know, the ISDs and the Ex didn't last long against the Rebels. I mean, Ackbar overestimated the fleet obviously and seriously underestimated the power of his MCs. On the Impeiral side - just the opposite. That is quite common in naval battles. Especially if neither side has had any major naval battle experience for YEARS.

[Surlethe]

The thing is, they don't need to cover the other vectors

How so? In the movie, there's a vast, vast space around the tiny fleet.

Because their presence covers that space: if the rebels try to make a run around the Imperial fleet, they're not going to just sit there; they're going to move to interpose themselves. If the rebels move at more than a forty-five degree angle to the Imperial fleet, the Imperial fleet will simply move to cut them off and herd them around the planet, and possibly open fire on them.

I'm fairly certain both pincers were arranged hemispherically around the rebel fleet

In the movie we don't see that. There's a huge "formation" - a bulk of Imperial Fleet - in front of the Rebel fleet, however, around it - just empty space.

From the ROTJ novel, p. 141 (taken from the canon database):

"The large central view-screen was coming alive. It was no longer just the Death Star and the green moon behind it, floating isolated in space. Now the massive Imperial fleet could be seen flying in perfect, regimental formation, out from behind Endor in two behemoth flanking waves- heading to surround the Rebel fleet from both sides, like the pincers of a deadly scorpion.

And the shield barricaded the Alliance in front. They had nowhere to go."

So the shield was constraining rebel movement from the front; meanwhile, it's important to note that if the rebels tried to escape around the Imperial fleet, the fleet would simply move to interpose itself between the rebels and freedom; they need to move less distance to get in the way than the rebels do to go around, and they have the "higher ground", so to speak.

it's likely that the Imperial fleet was simply too small to be flexible in its positioning

Exactly. I see it that way - the Imperials had to open fire from their standing point and decimate the Rebels if they try to run (after all, they WILL be running under fire), however, they were totally unprepared for a head-on confrontation.

They can also simply interpose themselves so the rebels will be unable to jump to hyperspace; from ROTS, jumping in the middle of a close-quarters battle is dangerous, and the Empire outgunned and outnumbered the rebels in any case.

"We won't last long against those Star Destroyers"

Ackbars extrapolation skill was really bad in the movie. For all we know, the ISDs and the Ex didn't last long against the Rebels. I mean, Ackbar overestimated the fleet obviously and seriously underestimated the power of his MCs. On the Impeiral side - just the opposite. That is quite common in naval battles. Especially if neither side has had any major naval battle experience for YEARS.

The Executor was damaged, but not destroyed, by the lucky strike against its bridge; as pointed out in another thread, the command ship would have returned to the battle after the secondary bridge gained control. The Imperial fleet also began to fall apart after the Emperor's death and the Executor's destruction (ref. novelization); there's no evidence the rebel fleet would have been able to hold up well against the Imperial fleet in an all-out slugfest with no incredibly lucky shots.

[nightmare]

In the movie we don't see that. There's a huge "formation" - a bulk of Imperial Fleet - in front of the Rebel fleet, however, around it - just empty space.

Newsflash; hyperdrive propulsion is generally designed for forward motion.

Ackbars extrapolation skill was really bad in the movie. For all we know, the ISDs and the Ex didn't last long against the Rebels. I mean, Ackbar overestimated the fleet obviously and seriously underestimated the power of his MCs. On the Impeiral side - just the opposite. That is quite common in naval battles. Especially if neither side has had any major naval battle experience for YEARS.

I would subscribe that to superior tactics and no small amount of luck rather than any deficiency in ISDs vs Mon Cals. There's precisely one thing we know Mon Cals do better; shields. Logically, a larger vessel such as Home One should have more power than an ISD, but the same goes for imperial ships.

[Mad]

That would be quite obvious if space was linear. Putting a fleet on the line of escape makes it impossible to pass. However, space is neither linear nor planar - there was a great multitude of options available, because we see that the Imp Fleet was ONLY covering ONE vector, and was tightly packed (what's the meaning in this again, if you're capable of blasting enemy to smithereens from a greater distance... I'm utterly confused - it would be infinetely better to disperse the ships in a hemispheric cordon (like the blockade of Naboo in TPM) - THAT would at least pretend to be an effective blockade...).

Perhaps you would care to explain how three ships could pin the Invisible Hand down and keep it from hyperspacing out in the RotS novelization extracts provider earlier? And then would you care to explain how the RotJ situation was different so that you can continue disregarding it?

[K. A. Pital]

Executor and ISDs vs the Rebels

The Executor was destroyed in the outcome, and that was precisely what the Rebels wanted. Destroying it was Ackbar's goal. He brought down the shields by concentrating all fire on the Executor, and then rebel fighter craft damaged and finally destroyed the bridge. Rebel tactics were superior, but if their ships were totally worthless against ISDs, they would not have even the ability to use any "tactics". So Ackbar underestimated himself and his fleet in general. The Imperials overestimated theirs. Three 3-km Home Ones and handful of MCs were enough to break the Executor's shields and then defeat whatever's left of the Imperials. And yes, there's also the fact that imperials are worth very little without the Emperor.

Prevention of hyperspace jump
As I see it, to prevent a jump you have to keep the enemy ship in a gravity well. On Endor the Imperial Ships weren't firing at the Rebels like mad (in ROTS, the IH was constantly pounded), and the Rebels had quite a lot of space for maneuver. Moving on the Rebel vector does exactly what? If the Imperials move, so will the Rebels - a change of trajectory isn't a very hard feat, and it will just become a "battle of maneuver" in which quite a lot of ships would simply go by or through the Imperial ship order. Even the greater Rebel capships had no big problems passing through the Imperial ship order like a knife through the butter, EVEN after a very long battle (some MCs and a Home One-class were even behind the order when the Ex was destroyed). And also the smaller ships survived a battle amidst the Imperial Fleet - surely they would survive a run through the same fleet. If they were intending to run, I rather doubt the Imperials could hold them off with the ships; I suppose they counted on their firepower... which, a surprise for them, wasn't sufficient.
But the concept of blocking the enemy movement in space by the ship is rather useless.

[Star-Blighter]

Executor and ISDs vs the Rebels

The Executor was destroyed in the outcome, and that was precisely what the Rebels wanted. Destroying it was Ackbar's goal. He brought down the shields by concentrating all fire on the Executor, and then rebel fighter craft damaged and finally destroyed the bridge. Rebel tactics were superior, but if their ships were totally worthless against ISDs, they would not have even the ability to use any "tactics". So Ackbar underestimated himself and his fleet in general. The Imperials overestimated theirs. Three 3-km Home Ones and handful of MCs were enough to break the Executor's shields and then defeat whatever's left of the Imperials. And yes, there's also the fact that imperials are worth very little without the Emperor.

I agree that the rebels had better tactics by far, however the Imperials had vastly greater amounts of hardware at their disposal. The only possible way the rebels could have won would be for a MASSIVE clusterfuck to occur within the Imperials fleet's chain of command. Incendentally, Palpy turned out to be that clusterfuck, when he decided to play lazer-tag with the Rebels instead of obliterating them outright.

Prevention of hyperspace jump
As I see it, to prevent a jump you have to keep the enemy ship in a gravity well. On Endor the Imperial Ships weren't firing at the Rebels like mad (in ROTS, the IH was constantly pounded), and the Rebels had quite a lot of space for maneuver. Moving on the Rebel vector does exactly what? If the Imperials move, so will the Rebels - a change of trajectory isn't a very hard feat, and it will just become a "battle of maneuver" in which quite a lot of ships would simply go by or through the Imperial ship order. Even the greater Rebel capships had no big problems passing through the Imperial ship order like a knife through the butter, EVEN after a very long battle (some MCs and a Home One-class were even behind the order when the Ex was destroyed). And also the smaller ships survived a battle amidst the Imperial Fleet - surely they would survive a run through the same fleet. If they were intending to run, I rather doubt the Imperials could hold them off with the ships; I suppose they counted on their firepower... which, a surprise for them, wasn't sufficient.
But the concept of blocking the enemy movement in space by the ship is rather useless.

As far as I can tell the Rebels were blocked by the Endor moon, The DSII and its gravity well, and the battlegroup the Imps had hidden around the moon. That leaves "up" and "down" pretty much, and both those vectors require leaving the gravity well of both the moon and the DSII projectors before being able to jump. With the Imp fleet positioned behind the Rebels any attempt to circumvent the trap would boil down to who's drives are faster. If the Imps can match the acceleration of the MC80s then bracket them with TL fire, they would then have no choice but to either close with the DSII or the Imp battlegroup. Since Akbar didn't immeadiatly order the Rebel fleet to leave the interdiction field when the ISDs showed, I doubt he had the option in the first place.

Suddenly space doesn't seem that big...

Also, Republic fleet of old didn't have orders to: contain but not destroy the IH. The Imps were explicitly ordered by grand Poobah himself to let him have his fun with his deathray and to only prevent the Rebel fleet from escaping, which the Imps did, until the DSII blew up of course. Hell, its stated in plain english. The flaw with the Imperials is not lack of numbers or firepower. Its the fact that they practically needed Palpy's blessing just to let their dicks go hard, let alone make independent decisions regarding his fleet actions.

To all:

And what the hell is up with the "I'm the happless victim, I can't be held accountable for what I post" back-pedaling bullshit on page 2? I thought our complete humiliation at the board elder's discretion was a given, didn't anyone read the fucking contract?!?

[/i]

[nightmare]

Executor and ISDs vs the Rebels

The Executor was destroyed in the outcome, and that was precisely what the Rebels wanted. Destroying it was Ackbar's goal. He brought down the shields by concentrating all fire on the Executor, and then rebel fighter craft damaged and finally destroyed the bridge. Rebel tactics were superior, but if their ships were totally worthless against ISDs, they would not have even the ability to use any "tactics". So Ackbar underestimated himself and his fleet in general. The Imperials overestimated theirs. Three 3-km Home Ones and handful of MCs were enough to break the Executor's shields and then defeat whatever's left of the Imperials. And yes, there's also the fact that imperials are worth very little without the Emperor.

Technically you are right, but technically, you are wrong too. First of all, the H1 ships are closer to 4 km. Secondly, Mon Cals *are* in general inferior to ISDs. We're not talking such a huge difference that they are useless - you were oversimplifying again - but one on one, a Liberty loses against an ISD.

By going to ultra-point-blank range, the ISD weapon configuration was rendered ineffective; you can clearly see this when the Exeutor is trading light TL shots with a mere frigate without blowing the latter up in an instant. They simply couldn't put their heavy weapons to use. This situation would have been easily avoided for the imperials had they used different tactics. In other words, Ackbar was right, and you're not.

You are also simplifying the situation with the Emperor. First of all, it wasn't Palpatine doing battle meditation, it was Nial Declann. Secondly, the imperial fleet got left hanging when he cut off his BM and confusion took place immediately afterwards. There's absolutely no reason to assume that it was a normal situation. They then also knew they lost the Executor, the DS2, and, presumably, the Emperor, which inevitably would crush morale. To say that "imperials are worth very little without the Emperor" is an extreme oversimplification, and quite simply, wrong.

Prevention of hyperspace jump
As I see it, to prevent a jump you have to keep the enemy ship in a gravity well. On Endor the Imperial Ships weren't firing at the Rebels like mad (in ROTS, the IH was constantly pounded), and the Rebels had quite a lot of space for maneuver. Moving on the Rebel vector does exactly what? If the Imperials move, so will the Rebels - a change of trajectory isn't a very hard feat, and it will just become a "battle of maneuver" in which quite a lot of ships would simply go by or through the Imperial ship order. Even the greater Rebel capships had no big problems passing through the Imperial ship order like a knife through the butter, EVEN after a very long battle (some MCs and a Home One-class were even behind the order when the Ex was destroyed). And also the smaller ships survived a battle amidst the Imperial Fleet - surely they would survive a run through the same fleet. If they were intending to run, I rather doubt the Imperials could hold them off with the ships; I suppose they counted on their firepower... which, a surprise for them, wasn't sufficient.
But the concept of blocking the enemy movement in space by the ship is rather useless.

Wrong. Calculating a hyperjump is not done in an instant, it takes around half a minute, give or take. That's plenty of time to simply block an escape, especially if you have faster ships than the enemy. It's possible that some rebel ships could have escaped by risking a jump in between imperial ships, but it's just as likely that many of them never would make it home. Tractor beams will slow them down as well.

As for your "smaller ship", see above. You're projecting your own perceptions on the movie without bothering to check what actually happened ("As I see it... If... I rather doubt... I suppose"). No wonder why you don't get it to add up for you.

[Covenant]

Oh not this again. If you want to humiliate me, you'll want to stay in the Other Sci-Fi board, where I make posts I believe in. Feel free to set me straight there, as I'm usually asking as many questions as I am offering ideas. It's hardly humiliating to have someone attack an idea I have no attachment to anyway, but it is indeed frustrating to see people trying to debate me about something I don't believe anyway. You might as well ask me to defend the rigorous scientific basis for Intelligent Design as my Imperial Pixie Cannons. Just beating a dead horse, man! :p Feel free to attack this one, if you like. If I'm wrong about the intent of the Imperial fleet, I might as well find out now.

Also, the main point about the blocking isn't that the Imperial ships are physically in the way, but that the route the Rebels must take to escape the Gravity Well is within a field of fire that would cause unacceptable losses. It's like being trapped by a wall of fire. There's no reason you can't jump through the fire except the risk of getting burned. They could just charge the Imperial lines, forcing them either to keep moving back to keep the rebels inside or break and make way, and then jump out when they're outside the well... but I think it's pretty obvious that'd have gotten their fleet obliterated long before they got out.

The Rebels were making a gamble based on their plan to waste the Death Star: the chance of achieving a war-winning victory if they could take out the Emperor was close enough that it was worth the battle and any serious attempt to escape would have cost them so many ships they wouldn't be able to make a second try. The Imperials don't need to stop ALL the ships from leaving to achieve a victory, so if a few of the smaller ones get away it's hardly much of a loss. Being able to box in their heavy guns wasn't very hard for the larger numbers of nimble ISDs, and the Emperor was busy having his fun anyway. You can clearly see their force taking their time with the Rebels, and the Rebels throwing everything they have at a very small number of targets. Had this been a military action, the Imperial victory would have been quick.

So there was a small area between the Imperial forces that was far enough from the main bulk of their forces that the Rebels could be relatively safe from the most brutal fire, and all around it were places the fleet did not want to be. If they had charged the blockade they would have come under much more withering fire, and this would have forced them back towards that center safe zone. That's how they were pinned down--it wasn't a wall, it was suppression fire. Once they had jumped in it was more or less a forgone conclusion. If they didn't achieve some kind of military victory they most likely were a chance to escape, and quite possibly would be followed. It was a good trap, and a lot more complex than there simply being no open spot for them to warp through. That's an oversimplification of the limitations of Hyperdrive travel.

[K. A. Pital]

Secondly, Mon Cals *are* in general inferior to ISDs

So? It's not a 1-on-1 battle. A fleet of Mon Cals defeated a fleet of ISDs. That's all we need to know. The individual characteristics of a certain ship mean jack shit. I bet the Executor was one of the most uber ships in the Empire. However, that didn't help.

By going to ultra-point-blank range, the ISD weapon configuration was rendered ineffective

That is because the ISD is full of blind spots. As for the weapon configuration on MCs, I doubt it was a lot more effective in the battle. After all, quite a few MCs were not below, in the ISD-SSS blind spot, but ABOVE the plane of SSD and the plane of imperial fleet in general, that is clearly shown. And the IF did nothing about it.

This situation would have been easily avoided for the imperials had they used different tactics.

That is, putting their ships for a police-like shooting from the Imperial ships? What did the Imperials expect, the Rebels just to stand or run while they are pounding them from both the DS and their heavy guns? The Imperials - including all the ones in charge, like Palpatine and Piett - were really, really incompetent in the Battle of Endor.

In other words, Ackbar was right

Ackbar overestimated them. He can't be "right" if his fleet defeated the Imperials and blew up the Death Star, while his ships were holding in a PB fight with the Imperial Fleet.

You are also simplifying the situation with the Emperor.

I'm not. The novellisation states that his death brought the fleet personnel into confusion. Very nice, right in a middle of a little slugfest with the rebels. As for Declann, that are nothing but EU afterthoughts, like "IG-88 in the Death Star" and other silly things which were not in the movie or novellisation in the first place. In the novel, it was the Emperor, and it was his death that brought malaise to the fleet.

To say that "imperials are worth very little without the Emperor" is an extreme oversimplification

Even WITH the Emperor still alive, they were doing pretty badly against a "puny" rebel fleet. Actually, the OT Imperials are close to sheer incompetence. At it's worst.

That's plenty of time to simply block an escape, especially if you have faster ships than the enemy.

How do you BLOCK an escape, if the enemy is out of the gravity well? You can't even KNOW which vector would he choose as his jump vector!

[Star-Blighter]

So? It's not a 1-on-1 battle. A fleet of Mon Cals defeated a fleet of ISDs. That's all we need to know. The individual characteristics of a certain ship mean jack shit. I bet the Executor was one of the most uber ships in the Empire. However, that didn't help.

The Rebels were also outnumbered by a significant margine. Even if the ships were equal the Rebels would have inevitably lost the ecounter by shear attrition. There was never a chance in hell of the Rebels winning a conventional engagement with that force, which is why the battle was anything but conventional.

As for your claim on the Executer. Do you know it was the most powerfull ship around, or are you just assuming?

That is because the ISD is full of blind spots. As for the weapon configuration on MCs, I doubt it was a lot more effective in the battle. After all, quite a few MCs were not below, in the ISD-SSS blind spot, but ABOVE the plane of SSD and the plane of imperial fleet in general, that is clearly shown. And the IF did nothing about it.

That tends to happen when you're trying to gangbang a flagship, can't really have everyone sit behind the engines and pound away like its a space sim.

That is, putting their ships for a police-like shooting from the Imperial ships? What did the Imperials expect, the Rebels just to stand or run while they are pounding them from both the DS and their heavy guns? The Imperials - including all the ones in charge, like Palpatine and Piett - were really, really incompetent in the Battle of Endor.

I love this over-generalising, it suits you. The DSII was effectively invulnerable with the Endor shield up, the battlegroup that formed the trap had superior numbers and larger capital ships with much more firepower. They also had a hell of alot more fighters to throw away and no reason to believe the rebels were any credible threat to the station or the battlegroup.

The fact that Palpy gave ridiculous orders to the Imp battlegroup should clue you in that the Imps weren't dishing out everything and had no reason to believe they needed to.

Ackbar overestimated them. He can't be "right" if his fleet defeated the Imperials and blew up the Death Star, while his ships were holding in a PB fight with the Imperial Fleet.

Akbar didn't exactly count on the emperor getting killed, the ewoks curbstomping the "emperor's finest", or the Emperor going all "Nero" and insisting on destroying all the Rebel ships himself. More "all or nothing" BS, you bring

If anything, Akbar underestimated Palpy's arogance and stupidity.

I'm not. The novellisation states that his death brought the fleet personnel into confusion. Very nice, right in a middle of a little slugfest with the rebels. As for Declann, that are nothing but EU afterthoughts, like "IG-88 in the Death Star" and other silly things which were not in the movie or novellisation in the first place. In the novel, it was the Emperor, and it was his death that brought malaise to the fleet.

EU is applicable as long as it doesn't contradict higher canon, so IG-88 IS in the DSII until you give me a scrap of paper from Lucasfilms that says otherwise. I fail to see the relevence of who was doing the BM or its relevence in general to the discussion at hand. BM doesn't make turbolasers morepowerfull or shields stronger. It affects the crew, which aren't really part of this debate.

Even WITH the Emperor still alive, they were doing pretty badly against a "puny" rebel fleet. Actually, the OT Imperials are close to sheer incompetence. At it's worst.

Rules.

of.

Engagement.

Get it through your Neutronium filled skull. From beginning to end, Piet was under very strict orders to contain Rebels. Not destroy, not anihilate, but to contain them so Palpy could use the DSII to systematically destroy each Rebel ship one by one.

How do you BLOCK an escape, if the enemy is out of the gravity well? You can't even KNOW which vector would he choose as his jump vector!

Were they out of the gravity well? Were they even outside the range of the Interdictor fields the DSII was throwing arround? I haven't seen RoTJ in awhile but they never left the vicinity of the Endor moon at any time in the engagement.

As to how you block an escape, simple. If you have faster ships, more of them, and a grav well to keep the enemy from jumping to lightspeed, then its easy. The Imps kept the Rebel fleet pinned firmly between the DSII and the Imp battlegroup. As long as the Rebels remained inside the gravity well, they couldn't jump anywhere and jumping required them to leave the gravity well, which the Imps obviously weren't going to just allow.

Here's a little diagram:

Top down view (I guess...)

DSII:


Rebel fleet: Endor:



Imp force:
_____________________ <-Edge of interdiction field (radius).

Note that the border should be a spherical field centered on the DSII.

As you can see the Rebels have three lines of retreat blocked by either enemy forces or natural obstacles, leaving the aformentioned "up" and "down" vectors. If the radius of the interdictor field reaches out to the Imp fleet then the Rebels can't jump and can't move into a position to jump since the Imp battlegroup is constantly goading them into the DSII via bigger, faster, and overal better ships. If the Rebels try to move out from in between the DSII and Imp battlegroup, they WILL get closer to one or the other by simple neccessity, which eventually happens anyway in the movie since Akbar decided that Imp battlegroup<<<<<<<<<<<one shot kills via DSII beam.

Seriously, are you this thick all the time?

[K. A. Pital]

The DSII was effectively invulnerable with the Endor shield up

It was blown up. So much for "effectively invulnerable". On the surface a group of Rebel infiltrators completed their mission. That's IT, the Empire LOST Endor, and lost as badly as it could.

That tends to happen when you're trying to gangbang a flagship, can't really have everyone sit behind the engines and pound away like its a space sim.

What's up with you? I said that the MCs were NOT out of reach of the ISDs and SSDs heavy guns, which was the initial claim. They were IN REACH. But the ISD and SSD main caliber was INSUFFICIENT to demolish the Rebel forces.

They also had a hell of alot more fighters to throw away

If they had THAT much more, there'd be no rebel fighters left in a few minutes. However, if that is true, that only means that the Imperial fighter pilots are as worthless as their "battlegroup".

should clue you in that the Imps weren't dishing out everything

So what's the point in "not dishing out everything", if the Rebels are ALREADY point-blank, and the Death Star can no longer fire? WTF were they thinking - "okay, we don't shoot, the Death Star doesn't help no more, we lose ships, but we don't care"?

Akbar didn't exactly count on the emperor getting killed

Did he? The Emperor was killed right before the Death Star was blown up. If the DS would be blown up, he'd be killed anyway. And killing him WAS in the Rebel plan.

the Emperor going all "Nero" and insisting on destroying all the Rebel ships himself

So you suppose Ackbar is blind and he doesn't see that the Imperial capships are SILENT, while the Death Star is demonstratively blowing the Rebels up?!

Akbar underestimated Palpy's arogance and stupidity

Not only. The Imperials lost a point-blank engagement. The only other factor here than the Imperial incompetence for such a battle, was the death of P.

EU is applicable as long as it doesn't contradict higher canon

I know the Canon Policy no worse than you do, and THAT is not the point. The point that the movie was made before all this crap came up, and it presents events as they ARE.

From beginning to end, Piet was under very strict orders to contain Rebels.

Okay - here's a tip. The Death Star could no longer assist in destroying Rebels once in point-blank. The Rebels start annihilating Imperial ships. And Piett is doing nothing? Is he a total idiot, eh?

Palpy could use the DSII to systematically destroy each Rebel ship

The DS could NO LONGER fire! What's the point? Are you saying Piett was just LETTING rebels destroy his battlegroup and then escape (because there'd be nothing left to contain them with?!!)

Were they out of the gravity well?

No, they weren't, but HOW do you prevent them from coming OUT of it, tell me. And don't tell me this "they could not retreat, because" - they could, and Ackbar considered the option of retreating. They didn't retreat because it was a crucial battle. That is all.

[nightmare]

So? It's not a 1-on-1 battle. A fleet of Mon Cals defeated a fleet of ISDs. That's all we need to know. The individual characteristics of a certain ship mean jack shit.

Do you have a problem with making 1+1=2? When an inferior force defeats a superior one, the answer is circumstances and tactics. Always.

That is because the ISD is full of blind spots. As for the weapon configuration on MCs, I doubt it was a lot more effective in the battle. After all, quite a few MCs were not below, in the ISD-SSS blind spot, but ABOVE the plane of SSD and the plane of imperial fleet in general, that is clearly shown. And the IF did nothing about it.

That is, putting their ships for a police-like shooting from the Imperial ships? What did the Imperials expect, the Rebels just to stand or run while they are pounding them from both the DS and their heavy guns? The Imperials - including all the ones in charge, like Palpatine and Piett - were really, really incompetent in the Battle of Endor.

There's so many problems with your arguments that I hardly know where to begin with them. But, let's just put it this way; the rebels concentrated fire, while the imperials had strict orders from Palpatine to just play passive and block the rebels. When they were attacked, they still only fired in a disconcerted way, and starting with the smallest ships, which is completely opposite of proper naval big gun tactics - the same that the rebels used; concentrate fire on the largest enemy ship first. You are generalizing and oversimplifying again.

Ackbar overestimated them. He can't be "right" if his fleet defeated the Imperials and blew up the Death Star, while his ships were holding in a PB fight with the Imperial Fleet.

He expected - or at the very least, took into consideration that the imperials would use their forces to maximum efficiency. A prudent commander should always do the same. The fact that they didn't doesn't make Ackbar an idiot. That's simple enough that even you should be able to see it, with all your g's and o's.

I'm not. The novellisation states that his death brought the fleet personnel into confusion. Very nice, right in a middle of a little slugfest with the rebels. As for Declann, that are nothing but EU afterthoughts, like "IG-88 in the Death Star" and other silly things which were not in the movie or novellisation in the first place. In the novel, it was the Emperor, and it was his death that brought malaise to the fleet.

Even WITH the Emperor still alive, they were doing pretty badly against a "puny" rebel fleet. Actually, the OT Imperials are close to sheer incompetence. At it's worst.[/quote]

Once again you totally ignore the reasons *why* these things happened. Is following orders that utilize your resorces ineffectively, even wastefully, incompetent by everyone involved? Such as in Gallipoli and the entire WWI? Or say, Soviet or France in WWII, and often other nations as well? Don't you see what's wrong with such sweeping statements alreadY? In ROTJ, the imperial crews, officers, and soldiers were given very little choice in the matter.

How do you BLOCK an escape, if the enemy is out of the gravity well? You can't even KNOW which vector would he choose as his jump vector!

Sigh. First of all, we have the DS2, the sanctuary moon, Endor, and the imperial fleet, all being gravity wells in themselves. Next, its incredibly easy to follow the vector as a ship can only jump forwards. Thus, the first time it can jump is when it is clear from gravity well influences and with no obstacles in its direct path or very close vicinity thereof. Should the captain decide to wait longer than the minimally necessary time, he/she/it would by your standards be incompetent.

Finally, we are talking about jumping out an entire fleet. Are you unable to see the problems posed here? The best shot for the rebels if they wanted to escape would be to run the gauntlet through the imperial fleet at slow sublight and manuver to get a clear jump. It's very unlikely that they would be able to do that with the whole fleet at once, even more so to actually get all the ships onto the same jump vector. Running the gauntlet, outmanuver the imperial fleet and then scatter individually, that would have worked, although probably not without losses.

Of course, given all your answers so far, I imagine that you much prefer simple, easy, quick, and thus largely wrong answers.

[Stark]

I believe Akbar outlined this for us. He wanted to retreat as soon as the Imperial fleet was spotted, so it may still have been possible. However, later, once the fighters were flying and the ships were close together, it would become very difficult to plot a course then jump out without hitting something or being interdicted. I think when the fleets were apart there was every chance of the rebels escaping: Landos determination to fight it out meant that they lost that chance. Perhaps individual ships might have escaped, but moving away from the battle and maneuveuring to jump would make that lone ship a huge target.

Further, I have outlined problems experienced by Executor to Stas Bush before. The Executor and her fleet were basically stationary and restricted from using their heavy guns for (IIRC) about half an hour. Later, during the melee, Executor's navigational problems may have resulted in the rebels being able to take advantage of shield seams and place their fireships much more exactly than they would against a more mobile ship. Saying 'LOLZ MCs are better than ISDs + Executor' is a staggeringly shallow analysis, for these and many other reasons.

[Surlethe]

I believe Akbar outlined this for us. He wanted to retreat as soon as the Imperial fleet was spotted, so it may still have been possible. However, later, once the fighters were flying and the ships were close together, it would become very difficult to plot a course then jump out without hitting something or being interdicted. I think when the fleets were apart there was every chance of the rebels escaping: Landos determination to fight it out meant that they lost that chance. Perhaps individual ships might have escaped, but moving away from the battle and maneuveuring to jump would make that lone ship a huge target.

Ackbar still thought the rebel fleet could retreat when the Death Star started firing; I think what he wanted to do was have the fleet scatter and jump away, then regroup later. This would result in a major casualties, since the Imperial fleet could spread out and both interdict and pursue the fleeing rebels, but it would work better for the rebels than going toe-to-toe against superior firepower, because not only does closing to point-blank range almost guarantee sodomization for the rebels (with the exception of incredibly lucky strikes, such as the destruction of the Executor, the death of the Emperor, etc.), it also prevents escape as you outlined.

[K. A. Pital]

When an inferior force defeats a superior one, the answer is circumstances and tactics. Always.

I guess then the competence of commanders is one of the "circumstances". As I said before, if there's an idiot in charge - in our situation the biggest fool is Palpatine - we have a very big "circumstance" which overcompensates any Imperial ship firepower superiority by the sheer stupidity of orders and actions.

But, let's just put it this way; the rebels concentrated fire, while the imperials had strict orders from Palpatine

But, let's just pretend I never heard this. Because it means that the Imperials continued that "weak play" in a point-blank fight, where the Death Star could no longer fire at the Rebels. It makes no sense at all, to continue NOT shooting while the Death Star cannot shoot and your fleet is being descimated!

When they were attacked, they still only fired in a disconcerted way

That is solely the problem of Imperials. The Rebels didn't make them attack like they have half a brain.

You are generalizing and oversimplifying again.

Not at all. If you can't even use your guns properly when it is clear that the Death Star is of no use, you're the incompetent one. If you issue orders that lead to defeat and don't even change them when the situation is completely gone out of contol, you're the incompetent one. So this is a clear issue - Endor IS Imperial incompetence, and nothing but imperial incompetence - everywhere, starting from P's orders and finishing with the work of fighter crews.

Is following orders that utilize your resorces ineffectively, even wastefully, incompetent by everyone involved?

Following an outdated and senseless order is incompetent. The order became outdated once Palpatine's "surprise" weapon was no longer able to fire on the Rebels. If that's not clear, then what is?

Or say, Soviet or France in WWII

Both are staggering examples of incompetence and inability on MANY levels. This is amazing you brought them in.

imperial crews, officers, and soldiers were given very little choice in the matter

If they continued to execute a clearly outdated order - well, then, Palpatine is but more of a fool. He didn't change the orders according to circumstances. If it was given up to the crews - well, then they're the ones who are dumb.

First of all, we have the DS2, the sanctuary moon, Endor, and the imperial fleet, all being gravity wells in themselves.

How potent is the IF as a gravity well? A fleet of ships is not a well potent enough to prevent jumps.

a ship can only jump forwards

What is "forward"? Just turn and there you go, you pass the obstacle. The only way to constantly be an obstacle to a jump is to run on the same course with your back to the ship behind you, constantly checking it's course. This is not just silly, but outright ridiculous.

The best shot for the rebels if they wanted to escape would be to run the gauntlet through the imperial fleet at slow sublight and manuver to get a clear jump. It's very unlikely that they would be able to do that with the whole fleet at once

Exactly. As for unlikely - HELL, they came out of COMBAT with the IF, how much more simple should a run-through have been. Ackbar WANTED to retreat.

you much prefer simple, easy, quick

No. I just prefer to see things as they are. "Circumstances" at Endor are largely connected with incompetence of commanders. Either just Palpatine or the whole bunch.

[nightmare]

I guess then the competence of commanders is one of the "circumstances". As I said before, if there's an idiot in charge - in our situation the biggest fool is Palpatine - we have a very big "circumstance" which overcompensates any Imperial ship firepower superiority by the sheer stupidity of orders and actions.

We don't disagre about this. What I disagree about is how you gloss over large factors and make generalized statements.

Following an outdated and senseless order is incompetent. The order became outdated once Palpatine's "surprise" weapon was no longer able to fire on the Rebels. If that's not clear, then what is?

After that the imperial fleet exchanged fire with the rebels properly, but in a poor situation. Since you have the novelization, you should know this.

Both are staggering examples of incompetence and inability on MANY levels. This is amazing you brought them in.

Just pointing out that incompetence, by your personal definition, is so widespread that there's no competence left. Once again you gloss over massive events.

If they continued to execute a clearly outdated order - well, then, Palpatine is but more of a fool. He didn't change the orders according to circumstances. If it was given up to the crews - well, then they're the ones who are dumb.

In case you didn't notice, Palpatine didn't pay any attention to the fleet battle, and he was definitely not issuing any further orders. It simply wasn't important to him compared with converting Luke. I'm sure you would just call that incompetence, of course.

How potent is the IF as a gravity well? A fleet of ships is not a well potent enough to prevent jumps.

You're focusing on the wrong thing, pal. Any object in space is a gravity well. It's strenght is a direct consequence of squared relative distance.

What is "forward"? Just turn and there you go, you pass the obstacle. The only way to constantly be an obstacle to a jump is to run on the same course with your back to the ship behind you, constantly checking it's course. This is not just silly, but outright ridiculous.

Ridiculous is certainly what I would call the manuver you describe. What you actually would do is block its bow from a different bearing so you can follow its angular movement, since they then have to vector their thrust more than you, alternatively, use manuvering jets. Both methods are less effective than primary acceleration, so it could offset the longer distance required to be covered by the blocking ship unless relative distance between the ships is too great.

Exactly. As for unlikely - HELL, they came out of COMBAT with the IF, how much more simple should a run-through have been. Ackbar WANTED to retreat.

The retreat was called off, so we can't say how effective it would have been. Calling it simple is your personal conjecture.

No. I just prefer to see things as they are. "Circumstances" at Endor are largely connected with incompetence of commanders. Either just Palpatine or the whole bunch.

Focusing on one aspect, calling it "seeing things as they are", and then act surprised when facts doesn't match your conjecture? You are a prisoner in a cave and you see shadows on the wall.

[Star-Blighter]

It was blown up. So much for "effectively invulnerable". On the surface a group of Rebel infiltrators completed their mission. That's IT, the Empire LOST Endor, and lost as badly as it could.

Did you even watch the fucking movie?!? The DSII destruction was entirely due to unusual circumstances and gross, gross arogance on the part of Palpy. And no, the Imps didn't lose as badly as they could have since EU supports Imp ships escaping from the battle to later form parts of the Imperial Remnent under one or more Grand Moffs.

What's up with you? I said that the MCs were NOT out of reach of the ISDs and SSDs heavy guns, which was the initial claim. They were IN REACH. But the ISD and SSD main caliber was INSUFFICIENT to demolish the Rebel forces.

Rebel ships were swarming around the Executer from all directions, at point blank range. A portion of that force WILL ALWAYS BE OUT OF THE FIRE ARC OF THE HEAVY TLs! This is basic geometry. Frankly I think your claim that Imperial capship guns are weak is total bullshit. The fucking HTLs on an ISD are absolutely huge in comparison to anything Mounted on the Mon Cals.

If they had THAT much more, there'd be no rebel fighters left in a few minutes. However, if that is true, that only means that the Imperial fighter pilots are as worthless as their "battlegroup".

You still have yet to prove that the battlegroup was worthless in and of its self. Need I remind you that ANYTHING is worthless when reined in by arogant fools, which Palpy happened to be.

You forget that Rebel fighters have SHIELDS. You know, the shit that grants space craft greater longevity over shieldless craft. TIEs are generally inferior to Rebel fighters.

So what's the point in "not dishing out everything", if the Rebels are ALREADY point-blank, and the Death Star can no longer fire? WTF were they thinking - "okay, we don't shoot, the Death Star doesn't help no more, we lose ships, but we don't care"?

Are you actually under the impression that the DSII was destroyed sometime during the battle, rather then at the end of it? If so then you are completely delusional. The DSII provided firesupport until its demise, which was WAY after the Rebels turned away from the DSII and closed with the Imp force. Your recollection of the events is mindbogglingly inaccurate.

So you suppose Ackbar is blind and he doesn't see that the Imperial capships are SILENT, while the Death Star is demonstratively blowing the Rebels up?!

At NO fucking time did the Imps just cease fire at the Rebels, you fucking troll-bastard! The Imps stayed behind the Rebels so they couldn't escape and are visably taking shots at the Rebels in several scenes during the battle. Ackbar was very supprised that the DSII could fire, which was very much after the Imp battlegroup revealed itself. Calrissian (sic) ordered his force to close in with the ISDs and Executor specifically to get away from the DSII that was one-shotting Rebel ships left and right.

Not only. The Imperials lost a point-blank engagement. The only other factor here than the Imperial incompetence for such a battle, was the death of P.

So the Ewoks and strike team weren't a factor, dipshit? You do remember that the entire mission hinged on getting that shield down, otherwise all the Rebels would be doing is wasting lives and ships.

I know the Canon Policy no worse than you do, and THAT is not the point. The point that the movie was made before all this crap came up, and it presents events as they ARE.

So? The movies didn't say IG-88 was on the Deathstar, nor did they say he wasn't. Nonetheless he was, and that is final.

Are you getting my point?

Okay - here's a tip. The Death Star could no longer assist in destroying Rebels once in point-blank. The Rebels start annihilating Imperial ships. And Piett is doing nothing? Is he a total idiot, eh?

Really and why not, exactly? SW capship particle shields can easily handle
KE and momentum from debris. Unless the superlaser directly hit an ISD or the Rebel ship targetted was scraping the hull (don't you dare get started on that, only small frigates were THAT close) at the time then the threat is negligeble.

The DS could NO LONGER fire! What's the point? Are you saying Piett was just LETTING rebels destroy his battlegroup and then escape (because there'd be nothing left to contain them with?!!)

So a grand total of one comms ship, one standard ISD cruiser, some fighters, and The Executer (which he was on by the way...) counts as a battlegroup being destroyed?

He lost two fucking ships, then he died at which point the fleet was none of his concern. Real incompetent, RIGHHHHHHTTTTT.....

No, they weren't, but HOW do you prevent them from coming OUT of it, tell me. And don't tell me this "they could not retreat, because" - they could, and Ackbar considered the option of retreating. They didn't retreat because it was a crucial battle. That is all.

Listen very carefully, Mr. A.D.D. case.

The interdictor field meant that the Rebels were limited to sublight drives, and Imperial ships are usually faster in this regard. Any attempt to leave the field means having to outrun the fleet thats RIGHT fucking behind you. Hence you will either get closer to the Imp battlegroup or the DSII since they are NOT a static force! The executer was never at a standstill relative to the Rebel fleet and can be seen to move within the group during the Falcon cockpit scenes. You are assuming that noone is moving when it is quite the opposite in fact, and thats why you're the dumbshit today and I'm the one who gets to pick on you.

Lucky me.... (bangs head against wall)

Anyways, I don't think you're worth debating anymore. Nightmare has already brought up reasons why. You only percieve the events as you want to and have made several inaccurate claims that most of us know are wrong without even having to dig out our materials.

I think you're just another troll-fuck that needs some education, but thats just me, I think.

[Star-Blighter]

I classify SW energy weapons into two varieties (there are doubtlessly more varieties, but who cares):

Blaster "bolt" weapons:

They don't drop due to gravity.

They move slower then light.

They don't follow the gun barrel in flight.

they don't seem to accelerate (atleast not as much) like lasers do and have no "three frame rule".

Laser cannons and Turbolasers:

They accelerate visably while in flight.

They always take three frames to reach the target, regardless of firing distance.

They damage objects before the "bolt" actually hits them and even sometimes after.

Laser bolts and turbolaser bolts behave as though "on rails", following the aim of the weapon until the bolt hits the target and sometimes even after.

Lasers and TLs also "dissapear" when they miss targets, most notably the scene in the deathstar attack in A New Hope where turbolasers are trying to hit X-wings.

With these observations it seems fairly obvious that blasters and turbolasers, while related use very different methods of operation. While blasters are distinctly sublight, TLs behave like c. propagating beams or atleast fire at a very high percentage of c.

The stongest arguement against "lightspeed" TLs is that they look like bolts. I personally don't care what the "bolt" looks like, I'm just interested in its behavior and effects on targets, which are anything but projectile like.

[K. A. Pital]

Did you even watch the fucking movie?!? The DSII destruction was entirely due to unusual circumstances

Unusual circumstances? Like, leading the Rebel infiltrators out on the open ground, so that they could run away when the Ewoks attacked? Running off from the bunker into the forests to be overrun instead of holding the bunker tight?

And no, the Imps didn't lose as badly as they could have since EU

Hey, what's with the tone? I didn't mean their fleet was totally destroyed. Being defeated at a crucial battle by a bunch of Rebels is bad enough. If they had lost all ships (and nothing in the movie speaks of the Imperial survivors) - that would be WORSE than they could. That would be just pitful.

Rebel ships were swarming around the Executer from all directions

Yes, you probably saw some other movie. There were SEVEN fucking Mon Calamaris, moving with almost ZERO speed above the plane of the Imperial Fleet.

A portion of that force WILL ALWAYS BE OUT OF THE FIRE ARC OF THE HEAVY TLs!

Are you even LISTENING? They didn't destroy the portion which WAS in the fire arc!

The fucking HTLs on an ISD are absolutely huge in comparison to anything Mounted on the Mon Cals.

Like... we saw what was mounted on MCs?

Need I remind you that ANYTHING is worthless when reined in by arogant fools, which Palpy happened to be.

Did Palpatine sit in for the fighter crews?

You forget that Rebel fighters have SHIELDS

So do TIEs, and they are not wanka-shields, but rather shields that can be overcome by a single salvo. They wouldn't help against a 10:1 numerical superiority in fighters.

TIEs are generally inferior to Rebel fighters.

Oh now this claim again. Nowhere in the movies it is stated that TIEs are inferior. More than that, in the movies TIEs HAVE shields.

The DSII provided firesupport until its demise, which was WAY after the Rebels turned away from the DSII and closed with the Imp force.

Eh? If I'm recollecting it inaccurately, show proof. Did the DS fire after the fleet closed to point-blank?

At NO fucking time did the Imps just cease fire at the Rebels

Oh really? I'm speaking about the BEGINNING of the fucking battle!!! So, like, Lando's "only the fighters are attacking, what are these waiting for" a LIE? Who's a troll here?

Ackbar was very supprised that the DSII could fire

Lando was also suprised that the Imperial Ships did not fire before the Death Star did. Or do you think Lando and Piett are both liars, and the Imperial Battlegroup FIRED? Even though it is SPECIFICALLY shown that it DIDN'T FIRE before the Death Star did?

So the Ewoks and strike team weren't a factor, dipshit?

How the fuck do they help the Rebels in decimating Imperial ships in orbit, dipshit? Oh, they don't? They were a factor in DESTROYING THE DEATH STAR, not in demolishing the Imperial Fleet and the Executor, which was done BEFORE the DS was destroyed.

otherwise all the Rebels would be doing is wasting lives and ships

The Imperials were wasting ships just for the fun of it, I guess. Funny how you dismiss the events in the movie...

So? The movies didn't say IG-88 was on the Deathstar

So? The movies don't say that the indestructible glove of Darth Vader... well, you know. But it was.

Nonetheless he was, and that is final.

The EU means jack shit in relation to movie events. That's just an ill-devised afterthought-explanation.

Really and why not, exactly?

Because, you know, that was the WHOLE FUCKING POINT OF GOING POINT-BLANK. Or is Ackbar now a liar, too?

the threat is negligeble

If so, why did the DS not fire? Why did it not just descimate all the Rebels while they were in point blank? Oh, but you are wrong, because Ackbar specifically stated the DS wouldn't be able to fire on them, if they move in point-blank.

So a grand total of one comms ship, one standard ISD cruiser, some fighters, and The Executer (which he was on by the way...) counts as a battlegroup being destroyed?

What are you smoking? ONE ISD? There's at least TWO, even if we're just counting ONLY the ones that were SPECIFICALLY mentioned as destroyed in the novellisation and the movie!!
ANd if we apply the same method to the Rebel fleet, we get... THREE DESTROYED CALAMARI. WOW. Fucking great, two of which are on the Death Star's count. Can't you see you own faulty logic?

counts as a battlegroup being destroyed?

Why do you retreat if you still have firepower and numerical superiority over you enemy? Oh, but should I even mention that the movie doesn't show any retreat at all. To the viewer the Imperials are just gone. Annihilated. Totally.

He lost two fucking ships

Oh, more like 4. Two ISDs, the Ex, the Commship. And that's only MENTIONED ones. How many unmentioned casualties did the IF suffer so that it had to retreat, remains a mystery.

The interdictor field meant that the Rebels were limited to sublight drives

Sure. So did the DS and Endor gravity well.

Any attempt to leave the field means having to outrun the fleet thats RIGHT fucking behind you.

No, you DON'T. You just need to leave the fucking GRAVITY FIELD. The imps can leave as well - it doesn't matter, since once you're out of the field, you hype.

they are NOT a static force!

It doesn't mean a thing.

You are assuming that noone is moving when it is quite the opposite in fact

So? The Ex is moving in the direction of the Rebel fleet. The Rebel fleet moves through the Imperial battlegroup, out of the gravity field and leaves for hyperspace. Or is Ackbar a liar again? I guess so.

[K. A. Pital]

nightmare

After that the imperial fleet exchanged fire with the rebels properly, but in a poor situation. Since you have the novelization, you should know this.

So? "Poor situation"? There were 7 MCs above the plane of the Imperial Fleet. In the range of their HTLs. And? The Imperials did jack shit.

Just pointing out that incompetence, by your personal definition, is so widespread that there's no competence left.

So... where is the competence in France's defeat?

Once again you gloss over massive events.

I don't. Competence is what helps a commander to turn the events of the battle, if they have given resource parity (which is the case with France, USSR and Endor). In fact, Endor is the most atrocious, because the Imperials DID have superiority over the enemy, or at least thought so. The absence of competence means you are not able to use your superior resources and then you suffer defeat.

It simply wasn't important to him compared with converting Luke. I'm sure you would just call that incompetence, of course.

That only means rampant idiocy. Palpatine didn't pay attention to the fact that the battle situation has changed and his order became clearly outdated. The commanders kept on following that order? Well... that's just atrocious incompetence.

Any object in space is a gravity well.

Exactly. So how does a fleet prevent a jump, tell me? If the potence of a solar gravity well is not enough to prevent ships jumping in and out of the system, I doubt that a fleet located even a few KMs away would be an obstacle.

The retreat was called off, so we can't say how effective it would have been.

Well, uh... what's easier - fighting the Imperials in PB, in which the Rebels managed to DEFEAT the imperial fleet, or just running through the Imperial Fleet? That's a matter of logic.

[nightmare]

The reason why the imperial fighters did poorly is fairly obvious - they attacked alone, without capship support. Which was pointed out in the movie, and they still managed to cause rebel fighter losses. The reason why they did that was also a part of Palpatine's trap. But I'm sure you will just call that incompetent, too. It seems to be your standard word for anything too complex for you to understand.

"The New Republic are incompetent fools for being defeated by the Vong." See, I can do that too, and boy, wasn't it easy compared with detail analysis. "Vong are incompetent for being defeated by a single planet and a handful of Jedi." Gee, this could go on the whole day. But I'm just going to call it quits and leave this thread now.