Is the Devil a God?

[Admiral Johnason]

I don't believe in anything up till Abraham, even then I pick and choose what sounds right, but I'll give it a shot. I am also a deist and yes I think the world works fine (yes I know there's suffering, but there must be balance.)

Free will gives God a get-out-of-jail-free-card for when something goes wrong. That way man can be to blame for what goes wrong and not God.

If God is to be considered a parent, then he is forcing his children to grow up. We have to take care of ourselves because if we don't, how can we grow. I speak of man as all human beings, not as individuals. Prehaps God has a double-standard for individuals and groups.

Fuck Genesis.

[Darth Wong]

I don't believe in anything up till Abraham, even then I pick and choose what sounds right, but I'll give it a shot. I am also a deist and yes I think the world works fine (yes I know there's suffering, but there must be balance.)

Free will gives God a get-out-of-jail-free-card for when something goes wrong. That way man can be to blame for what goes wrong and not God.

If God is to be considered a parent, then he is forcing his children to grow up. We have to take care of ourselves because if we don't, how can we grow. I speak of man as all human beings, not as individuals. Prehaps God has a double-standard for individuals and groups.

Fuck Genesis.

The problem is that there is no precedent whatsoever in the Bible for God magnaminously granting "free will" to anyone. Anyone who reads the Bible without trying to explain away its atrocities will see it for what it is: God routinely gets violently pissed off when things don't go his way. His respect for "free will" is zero.

It's just like the idea that the "Age of Miracles" is over, which is why we don't see them any more. There is no Biblical support for that bullshit either, and in fact, Jesus said that you would know his followers in the future by their ability to perform miracles (such as drinking lethal poison with impunity).

[Knife]

Going back to the OP, though. The Devil, Satan, Lucifer, Samiel, what ever name we want to proscibe to him, has come down through the mythos as the anti-god, and thus appears to be equal with him.

This may not have been the original intent, though even then I doubt it since if a rebel angle has the power to defy god he's a pretty strong fucker, but the myth has grown in the last couple thousand years. Changing dogma has attached bits and pieces to the thing so that in the end result, here and now, Satan is the opposite of God. THat implies equity atleast at the ranking of them.

He's not a god (imo) today in the general sence because in Juedeo/Christain mind set, god=good. Since Satan is evil or at the very least the tempter of evil, he can not in their construct be considered a god. But in an unbiased view, since he either opposes god, or plays at the big table with god (see Job) he must be in that same category.

If god is not equal to good, Satan's powers would qualify him for that power ranking. It's only in circles where the mere word GOD is equated with the incarnation of good, will people balk at naming Satan a god.

[Knife]

I don't believe in anything up till Abraham, even then I pick and choose what sounds right, but I'll give it a shot. I am also a deist and yes I think the world works fine (yes I know there's suffering, but there must be balance.)

Free will gives God a get-out-of-jail-free-card for when something goes wrong. That way man can be to blame for what goes wrong and not God.

If God is to be considered a parent, then he is forcing his children to grow up. We have to take care of ourselves because if we don't, how can we grow. I speak of man as all human beings, not as individuals. Prehaps God has a double-standard for individuals and groups.

Fuck Genesis.

That would make sense if he would have made a fair and perfect system in the first place. He didn't. He fucked it up so bad, he had to let himself/kid get killed to reset the system. How you can put 'free will' into a system where the basic tenant is that you are responsible for the sin of some guy who lived ~6 thousand years ago is absurd.

That's why I think it's more name dropping, an illusion meant to ease peoples minds, while you have no real intention of actually having 'free will'.

[Cao Cao]

The problem is it's a giant appeal to authority - everything is as it is because God says so.
God is good because he says so.
Satan is not a god because God says so.

I really hate that kind of thinking.

[Admiral Johnason]

That would make sense if he would have made a fair and perfect system in the first place. He didn't. He fucked it up so bad, he had to let himself/kid get killed to reset the system. How you can put 'free will' into a system where the basic tenant is that you are responsible for the sin of some guy who lived ~6 thousand years ago is absurd.

That's why I think it's more name dropping, an illusion meant to ease peoples minds, while you have no real intention of actually having 'free will'.

Don't believe in Original Sin or the Creation story ( I am a God fearing Evolutionist/Big Bang fan.) My views on destiny and fate are weird. You are destined to play your role in history but how you get there is up to you (you know, the Terminatior theory.) It may suck and have holes, but it works for me and allows me to keep going.

Then again, Clavin maybe right and there really is no free will, on predestination.

[Cao Cao]

That would make sense if he would have made a fair and perfect system in the first place. He didn't. He fucked it up so bad, he had to let himself/kid get killed to reset the system. How you can put 'free will' into a system where the basic tenant is that you are responsible for the sin of some guy who lived ~6 thousand years ago is absurd.

That's why I think it's more name dropping, an illusion meant to ease peoples minds, while you have no real intention of actually having 'free will'.

Don't believe in Original Sin or the Creation story ( I am a God fearing Evolutionist/Big Bang fan.) My views on destiny and fate are weird. You are destined to play your role in history but how you get there is up to you (you know, the Terminatior theory.) It may suck and have holes, but it works for me and allows me to keep going.

Then again, Clavin maybe right and there really is no free will, on predestination.

My view on destiny is that it's the human perception of the fact that our choices are irrevocable.
After all, it's not like you can hit a reset button and go back on your decisions in life.. you get one path and that's it.. it can certainly be viewed as destiny but I still think we have total free will in where we will go in life.

[lance]

To get quite technical, he doesn't even create the world; he merely brings it into some semblance of order (though apparently he does fill it with life):

1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

.

Now your being a dishonest fuck.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

[SirNitram]

It's worth noting those passages in Genesis have a different word in the original text than the word used to describe the God of the Jews. It apparently roughly translates as 'The Word' or 'The Power'.

[tumbletom]

This is a crazy thought I had, but maybe God has a sort of split personality that reflects his sides--(kind of like Fight Club?). Maybe thats why Satan and God supposedly exist in tandem--they are both the same person, just different facets?

[Lord Zentei]

Now your being a dishonest fuck.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And you are being an ignorant fuck: the first verse is a summary of the creation. Moreover, there is SirNitrams point to consider as well: the distinction between the god of the Israelis and the Word.

[Rye]

It's worth noting those passages in Genesis have a different word in the original text than the word used to describe the God of the Jews. It apparently roughly translates as 'The Word' or 'The Power'.

Uhhh....what? It has "Elohim" last time I checked.

[Lord Zentei]

It's worth noting those passages in Genesis have a different word in the original text than the word used to describe the God of the Jews. It apparently roughly translates as 'The Word' or 'The Power'.

Uhhh....what? It has "Elohim" last time I checked.

Elohim - as opposed to Yhwh?

[lance]

Now your being a dishonest fuck.

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And you are being an ignorant fuck: the first verse is a summary of the creation. Moreover, there is SirNitrams point to consider as well: the distinction between the god of the Israelis and the Word.

Do you have proof that the first verse is just a summery of creation? Because the way I'm reading it is, God created the earth, it is a mess and covered in water, he then gives it shape and what have you. I dont know anything about the Word so I can't argue if it is or isn't in the origanal version. I only have the translated version to go by.

[Lord Zentei]

Now your being a dishonest fuck.

And you are being an ignorant fuck: the first verse is a summary of the creation. Moreover, there is SirNitrams point to consider as well: the distinction between the god of the Israelis and the Word.

Do you have proof that the first verse is just a summery of creation? Because the way I'm reading it is, God created the earth, it is a mess and covered in water, he then gives it shape and what have you. I dont know anything about the Word so I can't argue if it is or isn't in the origanal version. I only have the translated version to go by.

Hmm, well; I have no more proof than you do, but that's the interpretation I was taught, though of course, I could be in error in that regard.

As for "the Word" bit, SirNitram and I seem to have both heard it, though Rye appears to disagree, and since I trust his knowledge of the matter more than mine, I'll back down on that. Perhaps he can clear up the first point as well.

[Rye]

It's worth noting those passages in Genesis have a different word in the original text than the word used to describe the God of the Jews. It apparently roughly translates as 'The Word' or 'The Power'.

Uhhh....what? It has "Elohim" last time I checked.

Elohim - as opposed to Yhwh?

Yeah, look here. As for why this is, well, the documentary hypothesis is worth reading about.

I always thought "the word" and "power" and such in genesis was New Testament stuff from John. Logos and all that. Might be wrong though, God Fearing Atheist, would be the guy to ask (even if he smells like poo).

[SirNitram]

Well, since all three of us agree there's two seperate words, and one mysteriously drops out of the text, is it possible we're seeing a holdover from pre-Monotheist days?

[ray245]

a funny point to note. I've read the gospel of Judas. It said that the creation god is not the most powerful and is not the true god, for there is a higher god which has nothing to do with this world...