Is there really a Hell?

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-04-25 05:05pm

After thinking about the posibility of the existance of this everlasting pit of damnation, I have come to question it's actual existance as a practicing Christian. I don't believe the book of Revelations (the Gospels are enough for me thank you.) Since Hell won't be open till the AntiChrist and his prophet are pitched in, why do Christians still preach that people are going to end up there. Jesus went to Shelob, not Hell, whne he descended to the dead. Now, why is this not good enough for those who have it coming in this life? It is supposed to be painful and puniching. Why would God need to go overborad. So, excluding Revelations, is there any real evidence that anyone will really go to Hell if the first guys to go in will not come into existance?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-25 05:08pm

I spent a few years at a Christian church college when I was going to university (this was a relatively open-minded place which seemed to encourage ideological diversity; one of the other residents was an Iranian Marxist). And it was a common belief there that the idea of Hell had no place in Christian dogma.

But that was a more accepting time. The year I left, a new dean came in and started enforcing much stricter admissions criteria (basically, the fresh crop of students the year I left was a fucking Clone Horde from Christian prep schools). There has been an ideological shift right-ward in religious circles for the past 10 years or so, and it seems to be everywhere.

An Ancient · Post by **An Ancient** » 2006-04-25 05:08pm

There isn't any real evidence for hell as a place of firey torment for humans, period. Especially since a number of Bible characters asked to go, or were entirely unafraid of going, to what a number of Bible's would call 'hell'.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-25 05:09pm

Indeed, there is no conceivable motivation for Satan to horribly punish the people who join him against God.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-04-25 05:16pm

Darth Wong wrote:Indeed, there is no conceivable motivation for Satan to horribly punish the people who join him against God.

The whole idea of Satan ruling in Hell comes from Paradise Lost an Dante's Inferno.

An Ancient · Post by **An Ancient** » 2006-04-25 05:20pm

Admiral Johnason wrote: The whole idea of Satan ruling in Hell comes from Paradise Lost an Dante's Inferno.

Really? Guess you learn something new every day, I was always wondering where people got that idea from.

Count Dooku · Post by **Count Dooku** » 2006-04-25 05:20pm

Admiral Johnason wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Indeed, there is no conceivable motivation for Satan to horribly punish the people who join him against God.
The whole idea of Satan ruling in Hell comes from Paradise Lost an Dante's Inferno.

That's the same guy who wrote about the 9 levels of hell, right? So, there is no hell in the Christian religion? I was not aware of this. So, what is supposed to happen to sinners when they die? As an atheist, I have not one damn clue about such things, but I am interested.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-04-25 05:28pm

Count Dooku wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Indeed, there is no conceivable motivation for Satan to horribly punish the people who join him against God.
The whole idea of Satan ruling in Hell comes from Paradise Lost an Dante's Inferno.
That's the same guy who wrote about the 9 levels of hell, right? So, there is no hell in the Christian religion? I was not aware of this. So, what is supposed to happen to sinners when they die? As an atheist, I have not one damn clue about such things, but I am interested.

If I am reading this right, we all go the Schlob, the afterlife. I am a Christian, so I ouwld go to the good part with the Jews. Atheist and non believers go to bad place and have bad things done to them. However, Heaven was opened by the Christ, so believers and Jews can make it into Heaven while the others still have to occupy Schlob. I know it sounds stupid, but there you go. I am still evolving religously, so I really have yet to develop an opinion on Hell, but I do like Vat II.

An Ancient · Post by **An Ancient** » 2006-04-25 05:39pm

Count Dooku wrote: That's the same guy who wrote about the 9 levels of hell, right? So, there is no hell in the Christian religion? I was not aware of this. So, what is supposed to happen to sinners when they die? As an atheist, I have not one damn clue about such things, but I am interested.

It really depends who you ask, different religions have different takes on it, from what I've read, my take on the whole issue is that Sheol (Hades Gr.) is simply the grave, and the state of death like being asleep, except near permenantly (ie no awareness at all).

This situation persists until Judgement Day, at which point, 'the dead are judged', hell is claimed to exist by some Chrisitan denominations, but their really isn't any proof, going by those denominations Bible's, you get to really confusing points like good people asking to go to hell (Job), or Jesus spending three days in hell (while dead), which really makes no sense, since Jesus was sinless, and guess what they say you're going to hell for? Sins.

That, and no-one who was ever brought back to life in the Bible said "Hey, why'd you drag me out of heaven? I was having fun there!", and neither did they say "Hey, thanks for rescuing me from that buring pit of damnation, I was getting burned there!" Which I think, if I was dead and then removed from one of the two back to life, I'd kinda mention.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2006-04-25 05:43pm

Count Dooku wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Indeed, there is no conceivable motivation for Satan to horribly punish the people who join him against God.
The whole idea of Satan ruling in Hell comes from Paradise Lost an Dante's Inferno.
That's the same guy who wrote about the 9 levels of hell, right? So, there is no hell in the Christian religion? I was not aware of this. So, what is supposed to happen to sinners when they die? As an atheist, I have not one damn clue about such things, but I am interested.

Depends on what Scripture you're willing to quote. In the New Testament, there are repeated references to a hell, where sinners will be cast into a furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:41-42, 50,) an "outer darkness" (Matthew 25:30,) an "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41,) and they get to stay there forever (Matthew: 25:46.)

In the bulk of the Old Testament (save a passage in Daniel, and a miracle in Kings,) they percieved death to be completely and utterly final. Examples follow:

Ecclesiastes 3:19 wrote:For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 wrote:The dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward . . . . . For there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

And there was a belief that everybody was equal in death:

Ecclesiastes 9:2-3 wrote:All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-04-25 05:43pm

Count Dooku wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Indeed, there is no conceivable motivation for Satan to horribly punish the people who join him against God.
The whole idea of Satan ruling in Hell comes from Paradise Lost an Dante's Inferno.
That's the same guy who wrote about the 9 levels of hell, right? So, there is no hell in the Christian religion? I was not aware of this. So, what is supposed to happen to sinners when they die? As an atheist, I have not one damn clue about such things, but I am interested.

There's several mentions of hell in the skepticsannotated, however it seems that the common conception of it comes from Dante's Inferno rather than what's literally described in the Bible itself.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-04-25 05:45pm

The Bible doesn't have one view on precisely what Hell is, Sheol, or the grave is acknowledged as the resting place for everyone, not just the wicked. However, the gospels, as far as I know DO present it as a place for eternal punishment, (though I think there are also verses that imply a Hell that annihilates the wicked) and you'd have to ignore them for some reason to deny it from a theological standpoint while affirming the general text.

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt. 25:46), for instance. There's also that bit in Luke 16 that has a story of the afterlife that has a guy being tormented in flame. And there's that bit about calling someone "thou fool" and being at risk of Hellfire.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2006-04-25 05:55pm

Rye wrote: And there's that bit about calling someone "thou fool" and being at risk of Hellfire.

Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Gotta love Skeptics Annotated's search function.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-04-25 06:06pm

It's really quite amazing, the extent to which Evangelicals have developed the concept of Hell beyond a few vague Scriptures and works of fiction.

Acording to fundamentalist dogma, a soul is eternal. It cannot be annihilated, only imprisoned. Hell is located in Earth's core. Anyone who's familiar with the finer points of YEC will note that the core was what sustained Earth in its original idyllic state. When sin corrupted the core the devastating effects spilled outward to plague the entire universe. Satan, having been granted dominion over Earth resides in Hell- which exists in the physical realm (as opposed to Heaven which exists in the spiritual realm) however, Hell can only be accessed via spiritual means. Theoretically, there are invisible spiritual wormholes in low-Earth orbit that serve as Hell's access points. Satan tortures the lost souls of Hell for fun, but eventually it will end up being his prison too as Earth is destroyed and Hell isolated in its own dimension for all eternity.

I only wish I was making all that up. Unfortunately, it's the culmination of everything I've ever read/been told so I can't directly site anything that supports it. Supposedly, Mary Baxter is considered to be the Pentacostal prophet in regards to the afterlife- and she's been to both Heaven and Hell.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-04-25 06:12pm

Hell is only what we make of it, I believe. Hell can be (and is usually) a reincarnated persons's real torment at the hands of others here on this Earth as well.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-04-25 06:33pm

You know what Hell really is Thomas? It's not lakes of burning oil or chains of ice. It's being removed from God's sight. It's hard to believe... so hard. ---Lucifer from the movie Prophacy.

Christians have built upon the dogma of hell for a thousand years. How better to help turn those horrible little pagans and other heritics. There was a time in medieval times where Satan was painted blue *not red* becasue being so far from God must have been cold? Right? Twas the notion at the time.

Pick · Post by **Pick** » 2006-04-25 07:20pm

Knife wrote:You know what Hell really is Thomas? It's not lakes of burning oil or chains of ice. It's being removed from God's sight. It's hard to believe... so hard. ---Lucifer from the movie Prophacy.

The idea that the Religion classes at my school tout (Catholic) is that Hell is being placed as far as possible from God, in a place where His influence cannot be felt.

Sweet.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-04-25 07:24pm

Pick wrote:Sweet.

You THINK that, but being on Earth, you're constantly bathed in God's glory. When you finally achieve total isolation from God, it will make you very sad.
Yes, this is uniformly declared to be the very worst part of Hell. They literally don't seem to be able to fathom the concept of people who strongly dislike God.

Zero · Post by **Zero** » 2006-04-25 07:34pm

Pick wrote:
Knife wrote:You know what Hell really is Thomas? It's not lakes of burning oil or chains of ice. It's being removed from God's sight. It's hard to believe... so hard. ---Lucifer from the movie Prophacy.
The idea that the Religion classes at my school tout (Catholic) is that Hell is being placed as far as possible from God, in a place where His influence cannot be felt.

Sweet.

It would actually be a bitch if you accept the idea that the devil gets to do whatever he wants there, and if you believe the devil is a sadistic bastard that enjoy your eternal torment and pain.

But I'd imagine he'd get bored with it after a while. Eternity is a long time to be chillin for. Eventually, I'm sure he'd be all "Hey, maybe I shouldn't fuck with people who made the same rejection of God as I did."

Of course, rationality never enters into it. None of it makes any bloody sense at all, but if you believe that this Satan fellow is pissed off enough to hurt anyone who made the same decision as him for all of eternity, then hell still is a bitch to go through.

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-04-25 07:38pm

If you take the Bible literally, there's no question that Satan is evil. However, he's evil in the sense that he will stop at nothing to ruin God's day (even if he can't win, he'll deny God as many human souls as he can to spite Him). However, aside from being completely remorseless in the execution of his revenge, he still doesn't seem to be as bad as God.

Master of Cards · Post by **Master of Cards** » 2006-04-25 07:46pm

Pick wrote:
Knife wrote:You know what Hell really is Thomas? It's not lakes of burning oil or chains of ice. It's being removed from God's sight. It's hard to believe... so hard. ---Lucifer from the movie Prophacy.
The idea that the Religion classes at my school tout (Catholic) is that Hell is being placed as far as possible from God, in a place where His influence cannot be felt.

Sweet.

same at mine

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-04-25 07:53pm

Zero132132 wrote:
It would actually be a bitch if you accept the idea that the devil gets to do whatever he wants there, and if you believe the devil is a sadistic bastard that enjoy your eternal torment and pain.

But I'd imagine he'd get bored with it after a while. Eternity is a long time to be chillin for. Eventually, I'm sure he'd be all "Hey, maybe I shouldn't fuck with people who made the same rejection of God as I did."

Of course, rationality never enters into it. None of it makes any bloody sense at all, but if you believe that this Satan fellow is pissed off enough to hurt anyone who made the same decision as him for all of eternity, then hell still is a bitch to go through.

Depends on the depiction. If he is indeed the fallen angle or some other derivitive of Samiel who either prosecutes humans from a godly view or he just truely hates us on principle, the traditional view holds water. In mythology, anyways.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-04-26 03:52am

From what i 'know'...

There is a part in ancient Jewish text that was left out of the Bible, recently found a few decades ago, or some such, where Jesus is asked why God sends us to Hell if he truly loves us.

So Jesus told the guy, look there is no Hell, it's a myth that God made up so that he could scare humans into being good weather they wanted to or not. Realizing humans would mostly only act good to each other out of fear of retribution he told them that there was a legion of fallen angels and burning underworld waiting for those who sinned and did bad.

BUT...in reality there is no such place. When you die you just go to Heaven, no matter what happened on Earth. The threat of Hell is just a tool used to enforce his laws.

Thats how i've come to understand it, mind you this stuff wa sleft out of the Bible sometime in the Middle Ages cause the Church thought it sounded too 'liberal', and they prefered the nihilistic God over the threatening but genuinely good God, it seems.

Ariphaos · Post by **Ariphaos** » 2006-04-26 10:34am

Darth Raptor wrote:If you take the Bible literally, there's no question that Satan is evil. However, he's evil in the sense that he will stop at nothing to ruin God's day (even if he can't win, he'll deny God as many human souls as he can to spite Him). However, aside from being completely remorseless in the execution of his revenge, he still doesn't seem to be as bad as God.

Satan was originally the Accuser - who would stand before you and God and announce your sins.

The similarities between Jesus and Satan don't end there either (both are named the Morning Star...)

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2006-04-26 10:44am

Xeriar wrote:Satan was originally the Accuser - who would stand before you and God and announce your sins.

Actually, everything I've heard points to Lucifer being Heaven's chief musician before his "fall". So specialized was his role that he is said to have had musical instruments as part of his form (and also given as a semi-serious excuse for why Christian music sucks so much- Heaven lost its talent). Perhaps his role as "Accuser" comes from him also being the leader of the Seraphim.

Although, that doesn't really make any sense. Before Lucifer's fall humans didn't even exist, let alone become "corrupted".