Dinner Prayer and Atheism

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-04-26 11:29am

I did a quick search to see if this topic was brought up but couldn't find it. Sorry if it has been posted before.

This has been a question that has been on my mind for a while now as it has come up several times in the past few months.

When I have the chance to eat with my parents, there is sometimes the issue of praying for the food you eat. While this ritual isn't 100% serious with them, they do often times ask me to lead them in the prayer on occasion. It isn't terrible, one can usually spout the "God is Great, God is good, let us thank him for our food, amen" crap, and get away with it, but it's still somewhat irksome to me since I've started to drift away from any of those statements being true.

I haven't seen my grandparents since I've "switched sides" so to speak, but they are much more fanatically religious (fundies of the highest calibar). They would certainly demand that I participate in leading prayer the next time I'm around them, and it's usually more invovled and more serious with them around.

So I'll ask the board, what's the best way to handle this situation? If I hold to my new beliefs, I'll undoubtably cause quite an uprising that will end up being the issue of the century (at least with the grandfolk). It'll turn into this huge deal. Or I can just sit back and do what they ask of me, gritting my teeth but not rocking the boat.

Is there any hints or advice the board has which might work in a situation like this? How maybe some of you dealt with this issue with your parents/grandparents/other family?

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2006-04-26 11:31am

Just do something short and generic along the lines of 'Bless this food and may it make us strong and healthy, amen'. No need to mention any names...

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2006-04-26 11:37am

As an atheist with a family that's part Catholic, part Fundie (my mother's new[est] husband...grrr), and part agnostic, I've had more than a few years practice with this. If I can't pawn "the blessing" off on someone else, which I usually can ("Oh, no, really, why don't you do it, Doug?"), I give a secular "blessing". This works especially well for holidays when we have a good 20 people present, as no one is going to criticize the blessing anyway lest they be accused of stirring up trouble.

Something along the lines of "let's take a moment to be thankful for the opportunity to share this meal and take this time to reflect back on the past year... blahblahblah." It's more like a toast than a prayer (although we usually have a toast or three later on, being of Italian descent). I just conveniently leave any god stuff out and if the Catholics say amen when I'm done and cross themselves, that's their business.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-04-26 11:37am

There is some merit to "When in Rome...."

If you're in their house and their guest politeness would dictate that you follow their customs and avoid religious debate as much as possible. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you need to prostelytize like the Christians and the Muslims.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-04-26 11:46am

To Elheru and Turin:

Those are good plans. Don't know why they didn't come to me, but I think those MIGHT work. A prayer is a prayer and something along those lines might just work. Thanks.

Broomstick:

I agree with you, and believe me I'm not in it to go beat my fundie grandparents over the head with my new found knowledge. It would do positively 0 good, and instead would likely result in a loss of respect for me, and me being bombarded by religious dogma to try and save my soul.

Having said that, I just don't feel comfortable actively supporting the delusion. I'm not looking for an excuse to argue with them, merely trying to find some middle ground that we can both be reasonably comfortable handling without getting into it. Kind of slipping it under the radar. A secular type prayer might just do it, too.

Mr. Coffee · Post by **Mr. Coffee** » 2006-04-26 11:52am

"Good friends, good eats... Good God, let's eat..."

But seriously, when I'm a guest at someone elses table I try to be respectful of their beliefs. If they pray before the meal, I bow my head respectfully and wait patiently for them to finish before eating. If they ask me if I would like to lead them in prayer, I decline, either on the excuse that it's not my place to do so in their home, or if pressed I try to gently inform them of my lack of religion (Which leads to some interesting dinner conversation). As a guest in their home I've got an obligation to not be disrepectful or ungracious to my hosts, just as they have an obligation to do the same for me. I mean, after all, they were nice enough to welcome me into their home and feed me, and if they lay a good table, I might want to be invited back someday.

Wicked Pilot · Post by **Wicked Pilot** » 2006-04-26 12:02pm

When you're <18/still a dependent there is some merit to the whole lip service thing, but when you're an adult you don't have to take that crap anymore. You don't have to volunteer your atheism at the first oppertunity, but you can politely refuse the first time they ask you to lead a prayer, and if they push into it then be straight up about the issue.

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2006-04-26 12:06pm

At IIDB's Secular Lifestyle form (where I also moderate), we get a lot of teenagers asking about how defiant they should be to their parent's religion. And the answer is usually the same: If you aren't financially independant, you might just want to bow your head and recite whatever poem or jingle you remember. It's a recitation for their benefit, not yours, and can outweigh the kind of problems you might encounter as a dependant.

If you're an adult as a guest, you are under no obligation to participate. Just keep your head up and wait to start eating for them to finish, as much as you would if you were waiting for your host to be seated before digging in. If you must, simply defer to your host when asked to say a blessing - it's the host's duty, after all.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » 2006-04-26 01:29pm

This came up at a recent gathering for my wife's Aunt. They had a b-day party for her and her daughter in law wanted to say grace, I wasn't asked to lead it or anything but I hate being invovled in it. God obviously not being involved in aquirng the fod for us. I just shut up and grit my teeth and didn't say anything while they went through their ritual, didn't think it was worth starting an argument over it.

Post by **Broomstick** » 2006-04-26 03:05pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:When you're <18/still a dependent there is some merit to the whole lip service thing, but when you're an adult you don't have to take that crap anymore. You don't have to volunteer your atheism at the first oppertunity, but you can politely refuse the first time they ask you to lead a prayer, and if they push into it then be straight up about the issue.

I suppose it depends on how far you're willing to go to avoid an argument.

A big question is "do you ever want/need to speak with these people again?" Relatives are a little different than casual acquaintances, and sometimes giving a little more towards their customs has benefits down the road. And sometimes not. This is an obvious matter when someone is less than 18 or still dependent, but even after one is financially and socially independent one may still not want to sever all ties. Context matters.

I've gotten a lot of mileage from the frequent cultural meme that prayer is often/normally led by the senior male of the party, which makes it much easier for me, as a woman, to pass the "honor" back to the head of household. Particularly since for half my ethnic heritage a woman leads prayer only if there is no initiated male over the age of 13 present. It makes for a convenient excuse.

(I have not entirely forgiven my husband for stating to some of his Bible-thumping relatives that I am a Pagan. It is amusing, however, that that statement is so far out of their little world that it mutated into "idol worshipper" and further, to the point that some of them are still convinced I am a member of the First Church of Elvis.)

There is also the aspect that there are forms of grace compatible with my belief system as well as Christianity. Not so easy to accomodate both belief and disbelief at the same time!

Civilization requires all of us, from time to time, to grit our teeth and endure expressions of belief at odds with our own. In someone else's private residence or a private gathering is not, in my opinion, the time to stand up on a soapbox. Again, context is important - I'm sure we can all come up with an exception to that rule - but as a general rule of thumb for conduct it's the one least likely to get you into trouble. Most of the time.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2006-04-26 03:23pm

Do it the proper atheist way.

Give thanks to the labour of all the real people who went into producing the food.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2006-04-26 03:44pm

"For what we are about to receive, may we be truly thankful."
That worked at the American Boychoir School, where we had all types. Pithy, but kind of bland.

You could look up some poetry by Wendell Berry; something brief may work.
My grandmother used 'Earth Prayers' as a table grace book, which is where I got that idea. Many of the entries were too long for a table grace, some not thematically appropriate, but there were a large number of usable entries.

If you can't choose the prayer, you can try to interpret the prayer in a way that it means something palatable to you.
For example, if they thank Jesus, try to interpret that as reverence to the concept of forgiveness.
And of course if they refer to the soul, just make that the unconscious mind or something.
You probably aren't going to be able to pull this off if their table grace is the Nicene Creed.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-04-26 04:00pm

I've never had the opportunity, but I've always wanted to just try singing "God god god god..." to the Meow Mix tune.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-04-26 04:30pm

To put some context on the issue....

These visits happen rarely...maybe once or twice a year or so. I see my parents more often but it isn't as large a deal (they may not like it, but they're willing to respect it). Which isn't to say that I don't love my grandparents and want to keep seeing them, I do. So clearly alienating them over this issue isn't the preferred method.

However, if they were to really push the issue, I'd have to tell them the truth. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm a God loving soul. What I am willing to do is to try and compromise by trying to not make it an issue.

Turin · Post by **Turin** » 2006-04-26 04:48pm

CaptJodan wrote:However, if they were to really push the issue, I'd have to tell them the truth. I'm not going to lie and say that I'm a God loving soul. What I am willing to do is to try and compromise by trying to not make it an issue.

I agree with you strongly that you shouldn't lie about it. There's a wide gulf between "not stirring up trouble with the family" and "pretending to be something you aren't." This doesn't just apply to dinner time, either. You're giving the proper respect to your family's beliefs, and you should be able to ask they respect yours as well. The Golden Mean Fallacy doesn't apply when you're talking about family!

b00tleg · Post by **b00tleg** » 2006-04-27 12:42pm

Rub a dub dub, thank God for the grub

always worked for me

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-27 12:51pm

Broomstick wrote:There is some merit to "When in Rome...."

If you're in their house and their guest politeness would dictate that you follow their customs and avoid religious debate as much as possible. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean you need to prostelytize like the Christians and the Muslims.

True, but to be honest, I think it's rather rude for people to expect a guest in their house to lead the dinner prayer if it's not his custom to do so. It's one thing to expect him to bow his head and remain silent out of respect, but another to actually make him spout your words.

I'll say this: I remain silent during the dinner prayer if someone else is leading it, but I sure as hell won't speak a dinner prayer which even vaguely implies that I'm thanking some ancient Jewish baby-killing psycho-deity for my food. If I did say something, I would have to thank someone like Willis Carrier for inventing the refrigeration technology that made possible our modern supermarket food distribution system. And if I did that, in all sincerity, people would get all pissed off at me for making a mockery of the dinner prayer.

Saurencaerthai · Post by **Saurencaerthai** » 2006-04-27 01:09pm

Honestly, I would just say something along the lines that I was thankful to have food, as there are plenty who do not. After all, what are they going to do? Jump up and scream at you for not mentioning the pink, invisible, immaterial elephant? There's no way they could do that without looking like an asshole.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-04-27 01:21pm

Saurencaerthai wrote:Honestly, I would just say something along the lines that I was thankful to have food, as there are plenty who do not. After all, what are they going to do? Jump up and scream at you for not mentioning the pink, invisible, immaterial elephant? There's no way they could do that without looking like an asshole.

To be honest, I can only see this situation happening in one of three cases:

1) You are keeping your atheism secret because your family will make your life a living hell otherwise. This means they're assholes.

2) The dinner hosts simply assume that everyone is a Christian, hence they're perfectly comfortable with the idea of asking guests to perform the dinner prayer.

3) The dinner hosts know that you're an atheist and ask you to perform the dinner prayer anyway, because they want to put you on the spot. This means they're giant flaming assholes.

Options #1 and #3 mean that they're assholes and you shouldn't give a damn how they react. If it's option #2, they may not necessarily be assholes but it's still presumptuous and ignorant.

CaptJodan · Post by **CaptJodan** » 2006-04-27 04:54pm

Darth Wong wrote: To be honest, I can only see this situation happening in one of three cases:

1) You are keeping your atheism secret because your family will make your life a living hell otherwise. This means they're assholes.

2) The dinner hosts simply assume that everyone is a Christian, hence they're perfectly comfortable with the idea of asking guests to perform the dinner prayer.

3) The dinner hosts know that you're an atheist and ask you to perform the dinner prayer anyway, because they want to put you on the spot. This means they're giant flaming assholes.

Options #1 and #3 mean that they're assholes and you shouldn't give a damn how they react. If it's option #2, they may not necessarily be assholes but it's still presumptuous and ignorant.

I'd say it's a combo of 1 and 2. They would assume that I am still a Christian (though they cannot assume I'm a flaming Christian as they are because we've already skirted around the question I had that can't be answered to my satisfaction) because I haven't given them any reason not to thus far. On the other hand, I have some knowledge of my grandfather on this particular side who might feel it necessary to go as far as disowning me (if I said I was gay and athiest I'd put a large sum of money on it).

My grandmother on that side of the family is kind of a wild card. She tows his line, but she also isn't the fundie he is. Family, her kids, and her grandkids mean the world to her. But she has never liked the tension that develops between those who have disagreements in the house about religion. And she really has a soft spot for me in particular.

The point is, I can't say that I'd be too terribly concerned if I was disowned by my grandfather. It would be a loss, I don't deny that, but I could live with it. But to put my grandmother in that position is another matter. I doubt she'd disown me. But she'd have to deal with him. Neither are in good health, and such information might not help matters.

So yeah, my granddad's something of an asshole.

Justforfun000 · Post by **Justforfun000** » 2006-04-27 05:10pm

The point is, I can't say that I'd be too terribly concerned if I was disowned by my grandfather. It would be a loss, I don't deny that, but I could live with it. But to put my grandmother in that position is another matter. I doubt she'd disown me. But she'd have to deal with him. Neither are in good health, and such information might not help matters.

You know, this kind of thing pisses me off more than almost any other when it comes to so called religious people. How DARE they even suggest that "disowning" your family members is even remotely Christian. Every basic tenet of it (from Jesus mind you) suggests that Christians are called on to show every degree of compassion, tolerance and loving indifference in any situation with the eventual hope of converting others through perfect faith and love.

If this is the way they demonstrate "love", they can go fuck themselves sideways with a Cucumber. Fucking hypocrites.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2006-04-27 06:40pm

CaptJodan wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: To be honest, I can only see this situation happening in one of three cases:

1) You are keeping your atheism secret because your family will make your life a living hell otherwise. This means they're assholes.

2) The dinner hosts simply assume that everyone is a Christian, hence they're perfectly comfortable with the idea of asking guests to perform the dinner prayer.

3) The dinner hosts know that you're an atheist and ask you to perform the dinner prayer anyway, because they want to put you on the spot. This means they're giant flaming assholes.

Options #1 and #3 mean that they're assholes and you shouldn't give a damn how they react. If it's option #2, they may not necessarily be assholes but it's still presumptuous and ignorant.
I'd say it's a combo of 1 and 2. They would assume that I am still a Christian (though they cannot assume I'm a flaming Christian as they are because we've already skirted around the question I had that can't be answered to my satisfaction) because I haven't given them any reason not to thus far. On the other hand, I have some knowledge of my grandfather on this particular side who might feel it necessary to go as far as disowning me (if I said I was gay and athiest I'd put a large sum of money on it).

My grandmother on that side of the family is kind of a wild card. She tows his line, but she also isn't the fundie he is. Family, her kids, and her grandkids mean the world to her. But she has never liked the tension that develops between those who have disagreements in the house about religion. And she really has a soft spot for me in particular.

The point is, I can't say that I'd be too terribly concerned if I was disowned by my grandfather. It would be a loss, I don't deny that, but I could live with it. But to put my grandmother in that position is another matter. I doubt she'd disown me. But she'd have to deal with him. Neither are in good health, and such information might not help matters.

So yeah, my granddad's something of an asshole.

Minor grammar-nitpick - I do believe that it is "toe" the line, not "tow".

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-04-27 07:22pm

I just told my family that I was a deist and I didn't pray, and they didn't object.

Maraxus · Post by **Maraxus** » 2006-04-27 07:37pm

My grandparents are rather strict catholics, and were a bit suprised when i told them i was an atheist. However, saying grace/leading prayers seems to make them happy, and i do it for their sake.

Davis 51 · Post by **Davis 51** » 2006-04-27 08:01pm

I was onced asked to lead a prayer by my grandmother as a joke, since my family is comfortable with my atheism. I looked at the dish and noticed it was pasta.

It went something like this
"Oh great Flying Spaghetti Monster...We thank thee for this wonderful pasta dish, and pray that your noodle appendage will touch us all, in body, spirit, and in salsa."