Narns: The Klingons of B5?

[Lost Soal]

B5 was hardly a military outpost, infact it was designed to be the exact opposite, having a place for peace armed to the teeth would not be a very good example of a "neutral" space station.

Thirdspace showed B5 as having at least one tactical nuclear warhead.

That was set in the lull between the Shadow War and Earth Civil War. Its what was left over from Corriana

[Uraniun235]

Are you referring to the nukes which G'kar delivered to Ivanova and Sheridan took two with him to Z'ha'dum? Because those were a lot bigger, and they weren't Earthforce-issue (which the Thirdspace nuke seemed to be).

[Lost Soal]

I guess they pulled the warheads or something, because until that delivery, I'm sure they didn't have any nukes.

[Uraniun235]

The warhead that Sheridan carried was a lot smaller than the 500MT nukes that were used at Coriana. I would also seriously question the ability of any of the Younger Races (or even the older races) to build a 500MT nuke into such a small package. (it was quite easily hand-portable)

Also, considering the role B5 played in the Earthforce invasion of Akdor, as well as it's role as a base of operations during the Shadow War and the Earth Civil War, I would suggest that B5 is in fact quite capable of serving as a military outpost.

[Lost Soal]

The warhead that Sheridan carried was a lot smaller than the 500MT nukes that were used at Coriana. I would also seriously question the ability of any of the Younger Races (or even the older races) to build a 500MT nuke into such a small package. (it was quite easily hand-portable)

The Gaim nukes could have been multiple smaller yield warheads packed into the one case.
Yes OK, I'm grasping

Also, considering the role B5 played in the Earthforce invasion of Akdor, as well as it's role as a base of operations during the Shadow War and the Earth Civil War, I would suggest that B5 is in fact quite capable of serving as a military outpost.

In GROPOS, they housed the soldiers for a bit and Sheridan advised on the assault. Earth Force actually had to upgrade there defense grid in case it went south.
In the Shadow and Earth wars B5 is basically a planning and supply point, relying on minbari and League ships to keep them safe.

Basically, it was the military officers, coupled with the meeting convenience which made B5 suitable. Considering that the brunt of the military force was for a long time the Minbari, anywhere in which the various Ambassadors gathered would have sufficed.

[Anguirus]

I'd say the Narns are really more like Bajorans, but portrayed in a more negative light.

Yeah, there's a definite parallel:

Centauri <=> Narns
Cardassians <=> Bajorans

Except the Bajorans aren't a major power.

Earth Force actually had to upgrade there defense grid in case it went south.
In the Shadow and Earth wars B5 is basically a planning and supply point, relying on minbari and League ships to keep them safe.

Well, let's not knock the defense grid. In "Fall of Night" it destroyed a Centauri warship in seconds. It also performed well in "Severed Dreams," and in "A View from the Gallery" B5 held off a major alien invasion force for hours before being relieved by the White Star fleet.

[Netko]

I think a case can be made that the Minbari are actualy a Klingon analogue, as much as there is any, in B5. Consider, they actualy use their pikes in combat like the Klingons, not to mention that special dagger thingy in ITB. In Severed Dreams, Narns all go for firearms in comparison. They also have thousands of little (religious and semi-religious) rituals covering all aspects of life including sex (Delenn and Sheridan in B5, Worf and Jadzia in DS9), have enourmeus (again, religious and semi-religious) significance given to their warriors. The only diffrence is their attitude. Klingons are the boastful Space Vikings analogue, while the Minbari are conteplative Warrior Monks. Consider also that most of the time we see Delenn, who is of the religious caste, while whenever we see a warrior caste member they are very much closer to Klingon attitutdes then the religious caste.

Narns, on the other hand, really are more like the Bajorans. Yes, they are aggressive, but not out of any religious belief that that is the way a proper Narn should act or a belief that it is their right, but rather out of deep anger at what happened to them and, essentialy, a feeling of "never again". Both were a relativly peaceful people before their respective occupation.

Yes, the Narns do have some of the "honorable warrior" ethos, but it's mostly ceremonial. The katana guy always seemed to me as someone older who has a ceremonial role connected to their culture then someone who expected to be a frontline fighter with his sword.

[Lost Soal]

I think a case can be made that the Minbari are actualy a Klingon analogue, as much as there is any, in B5. Consider, they actualy use their pikes in combat like the Klingons, not to mention that special dagger thingy in ITB. In Severed Dreams, Narns all go for firearms in comparison. They also have thousands of little (religious and semi-religious) rituals covering all aspects of life including sex (Delenn and Sheridan in B5, Worf and Jadzia in DS9), have enourmeus (again, religious and semi-religious) significance given to their warriors. The only diffrence is their attitude. Klingons are the boastful Space Vikings analogue, while the Minbari are conteplative Warrior Monks. Consider also that most of the time we see Delenn, who is of the religious caste, while whenever we see a warrior caste member they are very much closer to Klingon attitutdes then the religious caste.

There is no religious significance given to the Warriors, the warriors virtually dispise the religious caste and simply pay lip service to them. Conversly, many in the religious caste think very little of the warrior caste. The only warrior to get religious reverence was the Shi-Ellite, and thats because he was born into the religious caste and didn't want to be a warrior.
There is next to nothing which you can use to compare the warrior caste to the Klingons, since that one scene in ItB is the only scene of war in which we see them fight on the ground.

Narns, on the other hand, really are more like the Bajorans. Yes, they are aggressive, but not out of any religious belief that that is the way a proper Narn should act or a belief that it is their right, but rather out of deep anger at what happened to them and, essentialy, a feeling of "never again". Both were a relativly peaceful people before their respective occupation.

Yes, the Narns do have some of the "honorable warrior" ethos, but it's mostly ceremonial. The katana guy always seemed to me as someone older who has a ceremonial role connected to their culture then someone who expected to be a frontline fighter with his sword.

The reason they seem so similar is because the Bajorans are clearly one of the plotlines that Paramount stole from JMS.
As for the Katana guy, he's the only one we ever see using that sword, and he's a bodyguard, not a frontline soldier anymore.

[Netko]

I think a case can be made that the Minbari are actualy a Klingon analogue, as much as there is any, in B5. Consider, they actualy use their pikes in combat like the Klingons, not to mention that special dagger thingy in ITB. In Severed Dreams, Narns all go for firearms in comparison. They also have thousands of little (religious and semi-religious) rituals covering all aspects of life including sex (Delenn and Sheridan in B5, Worf and Jadzia in DS9), have enourmeus (again, religious and semi-religious) significance given to their warriors. The only diffrence is their attitude. Klingons are the boastful Space Vikings analogue, while the Minbari are conteplative Warrior Monks. Consider also that most of the time we see Delenn, who is of the religious caste, while whenever we see a warrior caste member they are very much closer to Klingon attitutdes then the religious caste.

There is no religious significance given to the Warriors, the warriors virtually dispise the religious caste and simply pay lip service to them. Conversly, many in the religious caste think very little of the warrior caste. The only warrior to get religious reverence was the Shi-Ellite, and thats because he was born into the religious caste and didn't want to be a warrior.
There is next to nothing which you can use to compare the warrior caste to the Klingons, since that one scene in ItB is the only scene of war in which we see them fight on the ground.

I meant reverance in the sense of a religious and cultural reverence given to the order of their society and the castes, not neceserily directly to the warriors. It's sligthly diffrent then the Klingons who consider warriors above others do to Kahless being one, however it is still not on the level most races in B5 hold warriors. A realistic level where they may be honored for their role as protectors of society but are, essentialy, considered just another guy who has a dangerous occupation. While with the Klingons and the Minbari the warriors (even after Delen's reforms!) have a special place in society, even institutionalised as such. If they were like most of the other races, the warriors would simply be part of the workers caste, as are presumably firemen.

What I'm trying to say is that it is not necessary for the warriors to be honored themselves either as a group or as individuals by the other castes. The caste system itself (again, in place even after Delen's reforms) places an emphasis and a special societal (and religious) significance to warriors. It's not "just another job".

As I said, I don't consider them perfect analogues, but among the (significant, there are possible better races among the League) B5 races, the Minbari strike me as the best fit for a Klingon analogue.

Also, I just remembered 2 more things that strengthen my position. One is the case of that rebel Minbari cruiser that comes to B5 in 2x01. They have a need for a honorable death, creating a convulted situation only so that they could be killed as warriors, instead of either suiciding, surrendering, or finding something else to do. The other being the Rangers (whos traditions are undoubtedly heavily Minbari influenced). They have that entire concept of "no surrender, no retreat", brought to the point of absurdity in LoTR.

[Stormin]

Any examples outside the norm can be attributed to the fact that they are supposed to be a race of people, not a clone army cliche where they all act the same.
There is going to be variation within individuals and cultures in the race itself.

[WTR]

I thought Nars were the Moselims of the B5-verse. Having to do that fasting ceremony, bowing towards Narn on that particular sunrise and I think they eat with their hands too. And the Moselims have the whole 'never again' attitude, against the Russians and Americans (and anyone else allied with those powers).

[DesertFly]

I thought Nars were the Moselims of the B5-verse. Having to do that fasting ceremony, bowing towards Narn on that particular sunrise and I think they eat with their hands too. And the Moselims have the whole 'never again' attitude, against the Russians and Americans (and anyone else allied with those powers).

Muslims? The Narns always struck me as the Jews of B5. A displaced people who have been attacked and occupied by superior (at least militarily) nations, who were peaceful, but have a burning desire to have a free homeland, and only attacked because they felt they had no other choice. (And before someone pops in here with the Old Testament Jews being a warlike, conquering tribe, I'm talking about Jews in the more modern times, since Roman occupation.)

[Lost Soal]

I thought Nars were the Moselims of the B5-verse. Having to do that fasting ceremony, bowing towards Narn on that particular sunrise and I think they eat with their hands too. And the Moselims have the whole 'never again' attitude, against the Russians and Americans (and anyone else allied with those powers).

The ceremony was only for followers of G'Quon, which is by no means the entire populus, while their attitude is what would reasonable be expected of any race which spent one hundred years in slavery to an occupying force.