Sauron/Orcs vs the USA

[Darth Wong]

Since somebody else brought up Saruman vs Count Dooku, I couldn't help but ask this one.

Now come on, who seriously thinks that Sauron and his orc armies, despite coolness and badass style, would hold up to ... oh, say, carpet bombing?

And the One Ring? Can't be melted anywhere but Mount Doom? Those primitives have never run into a plasma torch, have they?

[Enforcer Talen]

course, sauron could cast charm spell on a division of u.s. troops and start building a kingdom. . . but it wouldn't work on a mindless nuke carrying missile.

game over.

[Shadow WarChief]

Orcs are screwed....

Though the Orcs of Sauron probably number in the millions, there's simply no way one million guys with swords are going to be able to take out an Abrams, or an F-18, or a Cruise Missle...

There are some issues with the Nazgul however. Causing fear to follow you wherever you go would be an effective tool MBTs and Infantry. Not against Cruise Missles though.

As for the one ring. I think part of the reason why it could only be destroyed at Mt. Doom was because of the fact that it was forged there...i.e., Mt. Doom is necessary for magical reasons.

But still, there's no way Sauron could win this.

[Master of Ossus]

The orcs would all be insignificant, the trouble is Sauron himself. He obviously has powers far beyond his abilities in hand-to-hand combat, and he is very cunning. I don't think he would stand up to the US military, though. He would probably have to try and talk his way to power, which he is more than capable of doing. Either that, or he would just die to M16 fire.

[willburns84]

I don't know about Sauron, but his hordes would be cleansed with nuclear fire. I wouldn't even go the conventional route. I'd just have the US Military nuke 'em from day one. All nukes all the time.

[Next of Kin]

Sauron waves his hand and all the U.S. troops are turned into frogs!

Seriously, I think Sauron is quite the mean dude but his hatchet waving, stone throwing goblins would waver over the first drop of napalm! Now I wonder how Sauron's cronies would do against Star Trek Red shirts?

[Mr Bean]

Completly, undenable slaugher VS the Fedys

Orcs VS Abrams

Or A Benny Hill Song track and alot of squishing noises

[lgot]

Actually, Sauron would be elected a USA President in few years. After all, his best weapons are not the orcs but the subterfuge he uses. He destroyed the human realm of people of so "pure" and "noble" heart when he was a prisoner...how much would take him to tips things to his side in our so cynical world ?

[Darth Wong]

Actually, Sauron would be elected a USA President in few years. After all, his best weapons are not the orcs but the subterfuge he uses. He destroyed the human realm of people of so "pure" and "noble" heart when he was a prisoner...how much would take him to tips things to his side in our so cynical world ?

Ah, but people of "pure and noble heart" are the easiest to trick, because they have a nasty tendency to be naive and foolish. The modern world, on the other hand, is neither noble or naive.

How would Sauron's evil match up to that of Bill Gates, Fritz Hollings, dreaded Martha Stewart, or (gasp) Oprah? This is a whole new playing field, and he would just be one of many contestants in the Evil Megalomaniac game.

The searing power of Martha Stewart's Banality Attack(TM) or worse yet, Barbara Streisand's singing would swiftly annihilate Sauron and his minions.

[lgot]

well, when i said about the pure and noble heart i meant about those so pure and noble that would never do it...but I feel not place for a argument over it here in this topic, a bit lightly one...
but since Sauron, everytime is defeated returns with a new form to explore the new field, what would be his form for our world ?
What can you possible think of better choice for him to scare people out...

[Typhonis 1]

Barney or maybe Bill Gates Junior

[Smiling Bandit]

Believe me, Sauron couldn't even begin to understand the power of the internet. We could just give hima T3 connection and he'd never come out of. Can anyone say "information addiction"?

[Graeme Dice]

Since somebody else brought up Saruman vs Count Dooku, I couldn't help but ask this one.

Now come on, who seriously thinks that Sauron and his orc armies, despite coolness and badass style, would hold up to ... oh, say, carpet bombing?

Sauron at the time of the Lord of the Rings would be defeated by the U.S., because his army was mostly orcs and he no longer had his truly powerful creatures. During the Second Age of Middle Earth they would have a harder time of it because Sauron was at the height of his power then. During the First Age, I'm not too sure of the outcome, because Morgoth had an awful lot of extremely powerful allies such as Glaurang and his giant wolves, plus Balrogs running around all over the place.

And the One Ring? Can't be melted anywhere but Mount Doom? Those primitives have never run into a plasma torch, have they?

Does magic obey physical properties in this scenario, or does it go well beyond the realm of the possible?

[Darth Wong]

Sauron at the time of the Lord of the Rings would be defeated by the U.S., because his army was mostly orcs and he no longer had his truly powerful creatures. During the Second Age of Middle Earth they would have a harder time of it because Sauron was at the height of his power then. During the First Age, I'm not too sure of the outcome, because Morgoth had an awful lot of extremely powerful allies such as Glaurang and his giant wolves, plus Balrogs running around all over the place.

No matter how big his heavy hitters are, they're still flesh and blood, aren't they? A sword or spear will still punch through, correct? If a sword will go through, an RPG sure as hell will.

Does magic obey physical properties in this scenario, or does it go well beyond the realm of the possible?

A plasma torch would be considered magic in their realm.

[Graeme Dice]

No matter how big his heavy hitters are, they're still flesh and blood, aren't they? A sword or spear will still punch through, correct? If a sword will go through, an RPG sure as hell will.

I don't remember exactly what it was that eventually killed Glaurang the Black, but he took a lot of punishment on the way.

A Balrog shouldn't have too much trouble with most weapons, and some that rely on heat might not do too much at all.

A plasma torch would be considered magic in their realm.

Most likely, but if it doesn't fit the required parameters for destruction of the ring then it might not do anything. Magic does not necessarily have to follow a logical set of rules, so it might be possible for the one ring to survive a trip through the sun.

This doesn't correspond with what I remember of Gandalf's words about the necessary characteristics of the fire though.

[SirNitram]

No! Speak not the name of the Dread Queen, Oprah! You will unleash a pestilence on the boards!

Or not.

Sauron will have his forces decimated by, if nothing else, air-fuel bombs. Yet Sauron and the Ring are unlikely to obey scientific laws. Magic works on common sense, not logic.

There's no logical reason why a unicorn will only be ridden by a virgin. How, precisely, would the unicorn know?(Oh my god, horrible beastility thoughts just invaded my head... Pardon me, must soak brain in bleach for a moment... Ahhh)

The Force doesn't work on science either, or Yoda would be squashed when he lifts large things with the Force.

[NecronLord]

He'd give Dick CHeny a ring, Cheny would use it to take over the world, all the while degenerating into a free-will less slave of sauron.

That said the Orcs are royallly screwed.

No matter how big his heavy hitters are, they're still flesh and blood, aren't they? A sword or spear will still punch through, correct? If a sword will go through, an RPG sure as hell will.

Nope, Balrogs are Fire Deamons
And Narsil was a magical plot hook sword, normal weapons don't do anything to Sauron, Otherwise as he comes down after the seven-year seige of his fortess the men of gondor would simply have shot him..

[Crazy_Vasey]

Ahh I remember having a simialt argument with my brother except it was SW vs LOTR. Bit of a waste of time really as no matter what he insisted that Gandalf and Sarumon were invulnerable, even if the planet was blown up by the death star.

[Darth Wong]

A Balrog shouldn't have too much trouble with most weapons, and some that rely on heat might not do too much at all.

Who said anything about relying on heat? We're talking about an RPG, not a flamethrower. An RPG is an an explosive weapon (read: high pressure, ie- expansive force created by chemical reactions which propagate at supersonic speeds through the reactant). After penetrating the Balrog's body, it will detonate and fill him with shrapnel. There is no conceivable reason why such a weapon would not be far more devastating than any sword, even if we assume that the target is completely unaffected by heat.

A plasma torch would be considered magic in their realm.

Most likely, but if it doesn't fit the required parameters for destruction of the ring then it might not do anything. Magic does not necessarily have to follow a logical set of rules, so it might be possible for the one ring to survive a trip through the sun.

In that extreme case, it would be irrelevant. No one on Middle Earth has the ability to leave the atmosphere and retrieve it. If it were launched into space or captured by the Sun's gravity well, it would be gone forever.

This doesn't correspond with what I remember of Gandalf's words about the necessary characteristics of the fire though.

He said it was simply a matter of temperature (in more flowery language, of course). There is nothing anywhere in the Earth, including its hottest mountain or even its core, which is as hot as we can generate with modern technology. In fact, we can exceed the temperature of the Sun's core with modern technology.

I know people like to argue that magic doesn't have to follow logic, but even magical realms must have rules of their own, and there's no reason to assume that a technological solution to one of those rules (eg- not enough heat) would not work.

[Patrick Ogaard]

If Sauron is smart, he will deploy his orcs in the same manner as the orcs were deployed while Sauron was still lying low and trying to gather his power: small bands of raiders and bandits, operating from underground lairs near traffic paths. After a few years of making hikers disappear in the deep woods and raiding isolated homes in the dark of night, the orcs should have managed to gather sufficient intel, captives and hardware to be able to reverse-engineer the simpler items of modern human military technology. The orcs were, after all, the foremost technologists of Middle Earth. Copying modern guns by hand, in small shops, is certainly not unprecedented, though reliability and suitable ammunition are potentially tough nuts to crack. A bit of alchemy and patented "orc mischief" might provide an out.

The two major N/S mountain ranges, the Rockies and the Appalachians, would be ideal starting points for orc activities. Assuming the orcs manage to capture and decipher captured literature, especially the military and paramitary how-to manuals favored by the backwoods survivalists who would likely be the first victims of the orcs, they should be at least somewhat familiar with the basics of modern infantry tactics and the effects of weapons. Couple that with extensive delvings in the mountains to produce their nests, the orcs would be difficult to root out without the massive application of firepower. Hardly impossible, but difficult.

On the offensive, orcs would be in a less advantageous position. Knowledge of infantry tactics or no, the standard orc tactic for mass battles is likely to be an enormous wave of bodies trying to overwhelm the opposition. As there is no conceivable way that the knowledge and handcrafting ability gained by the orcs could extend to artillery, missiles, aircraft, or any kind of vehicle more complex than something the A-Team under the white-haired leadertship of George Peppard could have come up with.

If, and this is a big if, if the orcs manage to continue their covert infiltration campaign for several years or even a decade or two before it comes to public recognition of their existence and actual battle, the orcs can expect to hold large portions of the two mountain ranges against all comers. All things considered, should Sauron himself decide to take up residence, Denver seems like the obvious choice, or rather great delvings covertly dug into the surrounding mountains by some of Sauron's pets and slaves.

A suitably large population of human hostages/slaves would make it politically risky for the President to nuke Denver and the two mountain ranges, and massive collateral damage to friendly territory would be further argument against such action. The orcs would not be likely to be able to operate effectively more than a few miles from their mountains, and any sizeable force would be quickly eliminated by US air and artillery strikes or intercepted by roving patrols, but the orcs could likely fight the US forces to a stalemate that can only be broken by nukes and the indiscriminate killing of captive US citizens along with orcs. Eventually it might come to that, but not quickly.

Dragons are unlikely to be hugely effective, as one solid hit from something like a large antitank missile or 120 mm smoothbore cannon is likely to kill any but the greatest of dragons. The offensive abilities of dragons are unlikely to be worth the expense, except in situations like the setting of forest fires or the terrorizing of cities. A younger cousin of Smaug appearing at the Superbowl would be somewhat disconcerting for the tens of thousands of spectators about to become toast.

Trolls are similarly limited. Their enormous strength is accompanied by enormous size, and even the rock-hard scaly hides of trolls are unlikely to withstand the fire of rocket launchers or .50 in. machine guns. In the commando role, trolls could be effective if they were suitably stealthy and could engage the enemy at arm's length, a scenario not likely to come up regularly, if at all. On the other hand, trolls bulked up slightly with scrounged armor plate and equipped with crudely scaled up guns the size of light automatic cannon should be almost decent mobile fire support for orc formations.

Nazgul, werewolves and similar nasty critters could potentially provide a bit of parity with US military capabilities, and Uruks would be absolutely necessary to provide the orc forces with troops capable of fighting during daylight without seriously reduced effectiveness.

At this point, of course, assorted other countries would begin making trouble for a visibly weakened US, and televangelists would begin preaching crusade and asking for bigger donations.

[Darth Wong]

With no artillery, the Orcs would be severely hampered in mountain fighting. They would never be able to take a major city, as that requires getting out in the open. And they would have no answer for air power, particularly vehicles like helicopter gunships. A major Orc offensive would be mowed down to nothing by machine guns, mortar fire, and air support, so they have no real chance of taking large territory.

The most they could hope for is to hole up in the mountains, and they can be sealed off and contained that way. Then it becomes a bit of an Al Quaeda/Tora Bora situation, and they would not do well.

As for setting up foundries for making weapons or (less likely) duplicating some basic firearms technology, they would simply be targeted and destroyed by airstrikes. A campaign of subterfuge, terrorism, or secrecy is not compatible with the need for an infrastructure. Terrorists can function because the weapons they use are all built elsewhere and then shipped to them. But who's going to supply weapons to the Orcs?

[Omega-13]

But who's going to supply weapons to the Orcs?

Iraq

[SirNitram]

Points for Darth Wong:

1) The Balrog, from appearances, is smoke and fire. There's no body for the shrapnel to hit. You could, however, try dousing the sucker.

2) The One Ring does not allow itself to be lost. If you fire it into space, it will contrive events to come back to Earth. Sure, it'll be in the middle of a large crater, but someone will spontaneously be there.

Magic doesn't work like science. Magic bends the rules to accomplish it's goals.

[Smiling Bandit]

No matter how big his heavy hitters are, they're still flesh and blood, aren't they? A sword or spear will still punch through, correct? If a sword will go through, an RPG sure as hell will.

Well, I'm not entirely sure about it. The real problems are the Balrogs. These things may or may not be killable. But I still supect a few tank rounds wouldn't be good for them. Dragoons are nothing compared to missles and choppers and planes.

Nope, Balrogs are Fire Deamons
And Narsil was a magical plot hook sword, normal weapons don't do anything to Sauron, Otherwise as he comes down after the seven-year seige of his fortess the men of gondor would simply have shot him.

I point out that many of the powerful Elven weapons were strong and, mayhap, mystical in some way, but did not display any essentially supernatural power. Not one. Well equiped ancient Elves (Silmarilion) very nearly destroyed Sauron's old boss, but their swords didn't seem to have any obvious power.

Ahh I remember having a simialt argument with my brother except it was SW vs LOTR. Bit of a waste of time really as no matter what he insisted that Gandalf and Sarumon were invulnerable, even if the planet was blown up by the death star.

Technically I think he was right. Gandalf can't be killed because he isn't exaactly alive in the human sense. His form is more of a a temporary convenience.

If Sauron is smart, he will deploy his orcs in the same manner as the orcs were deployed while Sauron was still lying low and trying to gather his power: small bands of raiders and bandits, operating from underground lairs near traffic paths. After a few years of making hikers disappear in the deep woods and raiding isolated homes in the dark of night, the orcs should have managed to gather sufficient intel, captives and hardware to be able to reverse-engineer the simpler items of modern human military technology. The orcs were, after all, the foremost technologists of Middle Earth. Copying modern guns by hand, in small shops, is certainly not unprecedented, though reliability and suitable ammunition are potentially tough nuts to crack. A bit of alchemy and patented "orc mischief" might provide an out.

No, the orcs could not simply reverse engineer stuff. For all their cunning they are not very bright and, in any case, have no comparable source of the needed materials. the best they might do would be a cheap rifle.

If, and this is a big if, if the orcs manage to continue their covert infiltration campaign for several years or even a decade or two before it comes to public recognition of their existence and actual battle, the orcs can expect to hold large portions of the two mountain ranges against all comers. All things considered, should Sauron himself decide to take up residence, Denver seems like the obvious choice, or rather great delvings covertly dug into the surrounding mountains by some of Sauron's pets and slaves.

Sauron would never try to do that, because he knows we would nuke it. More over, Nazgul or no, we'd get them eventually. We have too many advantages. IUn any event, how the heck are the orcs suposed to sneak up on a city likely containing more guns than the entire orc species? Look at the population differences between the Middle Ages and Today - Ney York City alone could defeat all of Sauron's armies.

Nazgul, werewolves and similar nasty critters could potentially provide a bit of parity with US military capabilities, and Uruks would be absolutely necessary to provide the orc forces with troops capable of fighting during daylight without seriously reduced effectiveness.

Nazgul will find it hard to terrorize foes while being hit with sniper weapons. We might not be able to kill those undead bastards, but we can darn well tear apart their undead forms. And we saw the werewolves have any kind of military influence... when? The only mention of them I recall was from the Silmarilion when an Elve chick disquised herself as a Vampire (bat) and her human boyfriend as a werewlf (wolf).

[Graeme Dice]

A Balrog shouldn't have too much trouble with most weapons, and some that rely on heat might not do too much at all.

Who said anything about relying on heat? We're talking about an RPG, not a flamethrower.

I was talking about nuclear weapons.

An RPG is an an explosive weapon (read: high pressure, ie- expansive force created by chemical reactions which propagate at supersonic speeds through the reactant). After penetrating the Balrog's body, it will detonate and fill him with shrapnel. There is no conceivable reason why such a weapon would not be far more devastating than any sword, even if we assume that the target is completely unaffected by heat.

This all depends on the Balrog having a physical body, and not being "a beast of fire and shadow"

I know people like to argue that magic doesn't have to follow logic, but even magical realms must have rules of their own, and there's no reason to assume that a technological solution to one of those rules (eg- not enough heat) would not work.

It would be the solution though if the spells creating the ring were set so that they could only be undone in a certain location.