Trying to Understand Angry Atheists

[jahara]

I searched and couldn't find it. Lock it if you need to.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12498143/site/newsweek/

April 26, 2006 - I think I need to understand atheists better. I bear them no ill will. I don't think they need to be religious to be good, kind and charitable people, and I have no desire to debate or convert them. I do think they are wrong about the biggest question, “Are we alone?” and I will admit to occasionally viewing atheists with the kind of patient sympathy often shown to me by Christians who can't quite understand why the Good News of Jesus' death and resurrection has not reached me or my people. However, there is something I am missing about atheists: what I simply do not understand is why they are often so angry.

So we disagree about God. I'm sometimes at odds with Yankee fans, people who like rap music and people who don't like animals, but I try to be civil. I don't know many religious folk who wake up thinking of new ways to aggravate atheists, but many people who do not believe in God seem to find the religion of their neighbors terribly offensive or oppressive, particularly if the folks next door are evangelical Christians. I just don't get it.

This must sound condescending and a large generalization, and I don't mean it that way, but I am tempted to believe that behind atheist anger there are oftentimes uncomfortable personal histories. Perhaps their atheism was the result of the tragic death of a loved one, or an angry degrading sermon, or an insensitive eulogy, or an unfeeling castigation of lifestyle choices or perhaps something even worse. I would ask for forgiveness from the angry atheists who write to me if I thought it would help. Religion must remain an audacious, daring and, yes, uncomfortable assault on our desires to do what we want when we want to do it. All religions must teach a way to discipline our animal urges, to overcome racism and materialism, selfishness and arrogance and the sinful oppression of the most vulnerable and the most innocent among us.

Some religious leaders obviously betray the teachings of the faith they claim to represent, but their sacred scriptures remain a critique of them and also of every thing we do to betray the better angels of our nature. But our world is better and kinder and more hopeful because of the daily sacrifice and witness of millions of pious people over thousands of years.

To be called to a level of goodness and sacrifice so constantly and so patiently by a loving but demanding God may seem like a naive demand to achieve what is only a remote human possibility. However, such a vision need not be seen as a red flag to those who believe nothing. I can humbly ask whether my atheist brothers and sisters really believe that their lives are better, richer and more hopeful by clinging to Camus's existential despair: “The purpose of life is that it ends." I can agree to make peace with atheists whom I believe ask too little of life here on planet earth if they will agree to make peace with me and with other religious folk who perhaps have asked too much. I believe that the philosopher-rabbi Mordecai Kaplan was right when he said, “It is hell to live without hope, and religion saves people from hell.” I urge my atheist brothers and sisters to see things as Spinoza urged, sub specie aeternitatis—“under the perspective of eternity.”

And to try a little positivity. Last Sunday I took two high-school girls to Cold Spring Labs to meet Dr. James Watson. One of the girls wants to be a research scientist, and the other has no idea yet, but I think she will be a great writer. I think they also both want boyfriends. I want them to stay smart and not dumb down to get a boy. Watson spoke and listened to the girls, and they left, I hope, proud about being smart. I know that Jim believes way more in Darwin than in Deuteronomy, but he also believes that at Cold Spring Labs the most important thing is not whether you are a man or a woman, not whether you believe in God. The most important thing, as he says, is “to get something done.” Now there's an atheist I can believe in.

Here was my response:

Rabbi Gellman,

Is it really so hard to understand an "angry atheist?" We have been the "butter" on the communist bread since the 50's. We get lumped in with Hitler as evil personified despite evidence that he was Christian as were many of the Germans that supported him and his Nazi machine. In the minds of the religious today we are the real murders and child molesters and the only threat to "Mom, America and apple pie."

People make decisions everyday based upon their belief in a supreme being which directly affect the life of an atheist. Look no further than President Bush and the party which controls Congress. That power dynamic has been put there due in no small part their appeal to the religious right. Many of their actions defy logic and leave me concerned about my future and my son's future.

Education is the number one issue. Will my son get the benefit of a good education based on critical thinking and understanding the world around him or will he have his mind cluttered with questions about the true meaning of "theory?" If a religious person really doesn't want their child confused about what science teaches versus what religion tells them, all the child has to do is not pay attention. If my son wants to be a scientist, then he needs training from professionals to give him the knowledge which I am ill equipped to give him.

Now, understand, I don't begrudge you your belief. I am quite happy that you believe in something which give you purpose and satisfaction. The same didn't hold true for me when I did believe in God. Truth be told, I was a much more miserable person. There was no tragic event which caused me to lose my faith. I simply realized that I wasn't miserable because God was testing me or punishing me. I was miserable because I made the wrong choices. I was the one responsible for making myself happy and building a life that I could enjoy. It was doing me no good to stand around waiting for God to make things better.

As an atheist, I don't sit here lament “The purpose of life is that it ends." My purpose of life is to live, to live and enjoy every single second that I am alive. My purpose of life is to love my son and watch him grow up. My purpose of life is to grow old with my wife and share the wonderful experiences that life has to offer.

I hope this helps you to understand a little bit.

Now, I'm not the most eloquent writer, but I still tried to put into words the frustration that I have when people like the rabbi are unable to put themselves in somebody else's shoes to get the answers they are looking for.

[Darth Wong]

Let's use his idiot logic: "Why are Jews so negative about Nazism? Can't they recognize that there are some positives in the ideology, which has been misused by certain individuals but still has a lot to offer in its positive values about pride in your heritage and the value of school prayer and affordable cars?"

Christianity has a history of viciously persecuting atheists. Why the fuck shouldn't atheists have a chip on their shoulder about religious influence in society?

[Gil Hamilton]

I wonder how much his talk about how the world is a kinder and better place thanks to the works of pious will endure if Muslims actually someday succeed in pushing Israel into the ocean. Such a thing would be a work of piety, after all.

[Zero]

I'm regularly told I'm going to hell. My mother tries to force me to go to church every Sunday, claiming it will "be good for me." My Grandmother thinks I'm psychopathic and should seek therapy, just because I don't believe in her god. My mom thinks it's perfectly acceptable to hate atheists, yet crazy-ass fundies in this country cry persecution because we won't enact a theocracy. Dumbass fundies make many irrational decisions and support many irrational ideals on the basis of their faith, and they make it very clear that I'm some kind of threat to their vision of the 'American Ideal.' Should I be passive about this kind of shit? Some differences occur in the real world, where things can't just be explained away by simply saying we can each accept each other's beliefs.

[Guardsman Bass]

Good write, Jahara, especially the first paragraph. I've sigged it, if you don't mind.

This Rabbi thinks that atheists should apparently have the 'Booker T. Washington' approach towards persecution by the Religious Right; just stay quiet, civil, and don't be antagonistic. Now I agree that atheists should try to be as civil as possible, but I certainly don't think we should be quiet, especially when the Religious Right seems to think it appropriate to slander atheists as immoral, untrustworthy people not worthy to be citizens.

[jahara]

Wow, Ive never been sigged before.

This article was the straw that broke the camels back for me. I normally go throuh life and never really talk about my beliefs. It's a private issue for me and I would have preferred it stay that way. However, I get to see religion it from my fundie inlaws everytime I see we get together. I'm respectful of their traditions and as long as I don't have to actively participate, we're cool. It just galls me to know about the lives that they have lead and still come out, pardon the expression, high and mighty. I mean they've done shit that would have earned every bit of hate and vitriol that I could spew out at them if they were to do it today. I let it go now, because they have given me no reason to hate them currently. That and the fact that they really do love an respect my son.

(man, its hard to type with a one year old on your lap)

[CaptJodan]

I've never seen these angry athiests from whence this one speaks. (unless you count a couple on the Colbert Report or Daily Show).

Most of the people who I know as athiests don't go around as Christians do and cram their beliefs down other people's throats. As a matter of fact, I don't know of any athiest who has made their belief's known unless pressed by a religious individual.

Given the kind of bad wrap that athiests get, and the furver that religious folk get the moment any of their little crazy ideas gets challenged, I would have long since suspected athiests to have countered in the same manner. But they haven't.

I guess that's rationality verses fundiedom for you.

[mr friendly guy]

April 26, 2006 - I think I need to understand atheists better.

Yes, because writing an article with no research what so ever based, where by your own admission he based his view on atheist on what he is "tempted to belief", will really help him understand atheists better. Give that man a prize.

I bear them no ill will.

And that makes stereotyping all ok.

I don't think they need to be religious to be good, kind and charitable people, and I have no desire to debate or convert them. I do think they are wrong about the biggest question, “Are we alone?” and I will admit to occasionally viewing atheists with the kind of patient sympathy often shown to me by Christians who can't quite understand why the Good News of Jesus' death and resurrection has not reached me or my people. However, there is something I am missing about atheists: what I simply do not understand is why they are often so angry.

You don't suppose defamation, dumbing down of education, misrepresentations which you yourself are doing will have anything to do with why atheists are angry do you. No it couldn't be.

So we disagree about God. I'm sometimes at odds with Yankee fans, people who like rap music and people who don't like animals, but I try to be civil.

Hint : How many Yankee fans are called immoral, blamed by Falwell for 9/11 (as opposed to religious people) and ostracised. Why should we be civil to the people persecuting us. Should Jews therefore be civil to Nazi war criminals. After all it seems you are more interested in "being civil" rather than who has the stronger point. A classic style over substance mentality.

I don't know many religious folk who wake up thinking of new ways to aggravate atheists,

You mean the ways they already have to aggravate atheists aren't enough. Lets take your logic and apply it to you. If Islamic terrorists don't wake up thinking of new ways to aggravate Jews (and just stick to existing ways) you would be puzzled as to why Jews are angry at said terrorist.

but many people who do not believe in God seem to find the religion of their neighbors terribly offensive or oppressive,

Not only do you have no numbers to back up that claim, but I am willing to bet atheists like myself only find it offensive when they try and force it on others such as trying to get education to teach religion as a science.

particularly if the folks next door are evangelical Christians.

And that only emphases my point

I just don't get it.

Because you are stupid? Hint : Maybe when you actually get to the crux of the matter instead of pretending attacks against atheist don't happen like in la la land, you might actually get it.

This must sound condescending and a large generalization, and I don't mean it that way, but I am tempted to believe that behind atheist anger there are oftentimes uncomfortable personal histories.

Well given that you can believe in a magic man living in the sky without any evidence whatsover, is it any surprise that you would believe things about atheists without any evidence whatsoever? After all, this claim from your own words is based on what you are "tempted to believe". And you expect us to be civil to someone whose claims about us are not based on one shred of evidence. Riiiight.

Perhaps their atheism was the result of the tragic death of a loved one, or an angry degrading sermon, or an insensitive eulogy, or an unfeeling castigation of lifestyle choices or perhaps something even worse.

Appeal to motive fallacy. Why is it most religious people I talk to or see their writings online can't argue without resorting to numerous fallacious arguments. Funny how that one works isn't it.

I would ask for forgiveness from the angry atheists who write to me if I thought it would help.

I would ask theists to start thinking logically, if I thought it would help.

Religion must remain an audacious, daring and, yes, uncomfortable assault on our desires to do what we want when we want to do it.

Because most people really want to blow themselves up and priests will not sexually abuse little kids. Oh wait.

Note : he resorts to another appeal to motive.

All religions must teach a way to discipline our animal urges, to overcome racism and materialism, selfishness and arrogance and the sinful oppression of the most vulnerable and the most innocent among us.

So which religion actually does this? And I am not talking about religious leaders, I am talking about the actual holy books / scriptures themselves.

Some religious leaders obviously betray the teachings of the faith they claim to represent, but their sacred scriptures remain a critique of them and also of every thing we do to betray the better angels of our nature. But our world is better and kinder and more hopeful because of the daily sacrifice and witness of millions of pious people over thousands of years.

Because the inquisition, crusades, witch hunts, holocaust never really happened. I am willing to bet this point completely flies over his head because these people have "Religion cannot be criticise" hat on which strangely prevents them from grasping the obvious and basic logic.

To be called to a level of goodness and sacrifice so constantly and so patiently by a loving but demanding God may seem like a naive demand to achieve what is only a remote human possibility. However, such a vision need not be seen as a red flag to those who believe nothing.

Sorry. Didn't you say you had zero interest in converting atheists. Then why are you asking them to behave as God wants them to. I see you are also a fucking liar as well. But hey thats ok. As long you are polite and "civil" you can lie and bullshit all you want.

I can humbly ask whether my atheist brothers and sisters really believe that their lives are better, richer and more hopeful by clinging to Camus's existential despair: “The purpose of life is that it ends."

That's your argument. An appeal to consequence fallacy? Note, this is just a thinly veiled attempt at conversion, a similar tactic is used by Christians.

I can agree to make peace with atheists whom I believe ask too little of life here on planet earth if they will agree to make peace with me and with other religious folk who perhaps have asked too much.

Well that's rich. After he spent the better part of his article misrepresenting atheists then he wants to make peace. I bet if a racist destroys a Jewish Synagogue and then says he wants to make peace without admitting any wrong doing, you would think thats all fine and dandy as well right. Oh wait.

I believe that the philosopher-rabbi Mordecai Kaplan was right when he said, “It is hell to live without hope, and religion saves people from hell.”

Not only is this circular reasoning (he assumes the existence of Hell which he will need to prove to show the benefits of religion) but Kaplan uses 2 different definitions of hell. The first "hell" obviously means torment, anguish - ie I went through one hell of a job, and the second "hell" obviously refers to abode of condemned souls where Satan resides.

Moreover who gives a shit whether Rabbi boy believes it. I am more interested in how he justifies his belief. But I see things like useless platitudes and rhetorical word play ("I believe" statements) mean more to him than evidence and logic.

I urge my atheist brothers and sisters to see things as Spinoza urged, sub specie aeternitatis—“under the perspective of eternity.”

Which only supports his case if he assumes the existence of God in the first place.

<snip>

Blah blah blah.

And great reply jahara. Of course as you can see, as one of these "angry atheists" I would have just flamed the moron.

[jahara]

And great reply jahara. Of course as you can see, as one of these "angry atheists" I would have just flamed the moron.

Thanks. When I got home last night, I re-read my response and it came across much angrier than I thought. I was still fuming about the whole issue well into the night, so I'm glad it went out like it did. As far as flaming the guy, it would have sent me down a path of being too angry to think straight and I wouldn't have been able to write anything. I do like your respose so much better.

[Guardsman Bass]

I've never seen an 'angry atheist' actually actively seeking out to vent anger at the religious establishment. The 'angry part' is when the 'angry atheist' is pushed and provides an earful.

[Morilore]

I think I need to understand atheists better. I bear them no ill will. I don't think they need to be religious to be good, kind and charitable people, and I have no desire to debate or convert them. I do think they are wrong about the biggest question, “Are we alone?” and I will admit to occasionally viewing atheists with the kind of patient sympathy often shown to me by Christians who can't quite understand why the Good News of Jesus' death and resurrection has not reached me or my people. However, there is something I am missing about atheists: what I simply do not understand is why they are often so angry.

This is the atheist equivalent of "I bear black people no ill will, but why are they often so violent and disrespectful?" or "I bear gay people no ill will, but why must they be so flamboyantly celebratory of their preferences?" In all three cases, it's about half lie and half a reaction to a situation the majority created themselves.

[McC]

Frankly, I'm kind of annoyed that we atheists aren't more "evangelical." We're such a passive bunch of pussies -- we can debate and out-logic the best the religious have to offer, yet we basically sit around and wait for them to come to us, rather than being pro-active and fixing things.

Count me as a very angry atheist. And to respond to the Rabbi's statement, no, nothing traumatic happened to me. There is not a single thing in my life that would cataclysmically turn me towards out-and-out disgust with the religious. I was more or less brought up "without religion," but not "anti-religion." I developed my anti-religious position on my own.

[wolveraptor]

Atheists, hell, people in general, get irritated when you speak to them in a presumptious and condescending manner. This Rabbi is socially retarded.

[FSTargetDrone]

It's not so much that I'm an "angry" atheist, it's that I am endlessly dismayed and troubled when the president of my country leans on his religion so much; when he cites Christ as the most important philosopher in his life; that we should "pray" to help stem the damage at the upcoming hurricane season; that people want to display the Ten Commandments in public spaces (which ones?); that people feel a need to prostelyze; that churches are not taxed; that superstition is invading the government more and more (see above); that "In God We Trust" is printed on our currency; that somehow the founders of this country were super-pious and Christian; that the Catholic Church continues to rely on such foolishness as "the rhythm method" for family "planning"; that people in the 21st century will see an oil stain in a parking lot that superficially resembles a saint and insist it's some sort of divine message; that the Catholic Church worships the image of an executed man and finds it somehow good and admirable to experience suffering and torment.

I could go on.

[Medic]

"If you don't believe in anything, you'll fall for everything."



How about just secular humanism? And realizing that this life is the one and only one worth living and making better for us and our progeny, not leaving it up to chance, afterlife's, or Rapture's and Judgement Day's.

[Nova Andromeda]

Frankly, I'm kind of annoyed that we atheists aren't more "evangelical." We're such a passive bunch of pussies -- ... rather than being pro-active and fixing things.

--I'm currently of the opinion that this is because we don't have "group" to fight for. What we need is social organization to unite us. Something that would get Mr. Wong and family out of bed on Sun. to meet with like minded community members and form a real organization. Something that would get the rest of us to invest in and feel like donating time and money to. That is probably why religion does so well.
Oh and lets not forget to ditch the damn tree hugging pacifists. When push comes to shove, and it always does with determined people, their first option is surrender and their second is treason.

[God Fearing Atheist]

I harbor no particular animus towards Christians and sympathize with the Rabbi's attitude toward anti-theism. The conviction that there is something inherently wrong with religious belief tends to lead (at least in my experience) otherwise intelligent, thoughtful people into arguing positions that are neither intelligent or thoughtful for no more reason than they cast theism in a negative light.

Theists are frequently guilty of the same thing, as evidenced by the Rabbi's own pseudo-psychologizing. No one can be intellectually unconvinced of god's existence. No sir, I must be angry at god! I must be rebellious! I must not want to give up my sinful "lifestyle choice".

[000]

Meh, I understand where this rabbi's coming from. I've known or seen plenty of atheists who are assholes about their beliefs and openly bitchy about religion.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Meh, I understand where this rabbi's coming from. I've known or seen plenty of atheists who are assholes about their beliefs and openly bitchy about religion.

Yeah, we should just shut up and just take any insults, threats and abuse that comes our way ! That'll make things better !

[Darth Wong]

Meh, I understand where this rabbi's coming from. I've known or seen plenty of atheists who are assholes about their beliefs and openly bitchy about religion.

Define what you consider to be "asshole" behaviour with regard to atheism. I'd bet real money it's behaviour that would be considered perfectly normal (perhaps even laudable) for a religious person.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Meh, I understand where this rabbi's coming from. I've known or seen plenty of atheists who are assholes about their beliefs and openly bitchy about religion.

Define what you consider to be "asshole" behaviour with regard to atheism. I'd bet real money it's behaviour that would be considered perfectly normal (perhaps even laudable) for a religious person.

And you'd be quite correct. I think he means 'proselytizing, pushy, argumentative, and belligerent'.

Qualities I've never seen in an atheist...

[mr friendly guy]

Meh, I understand where this rabbi's coming from. I've known or seen plenty of atheists who are assholes about their beliefs and openly bitchy about religion.

Define what you consider to be "asshole" behaviour with regard to atheism. I'd bet real money it's behaviour that would be considered perfectly normal (perhaps even laudable) for a religious person.

And you'd be quite correct. I think he means 'proselytizing, pushy, argumentative, and belligerent'.

Qualities I've never seen in an atheist...

If a discussion came up, I can become argumentative and belligerant. However the only time I would consider proselytizing is if I know the person I am doing it to is a religious person so they can see whats its like to have religious people bother you at the door crying out for you to be saved.

Aussie comedian John Saffron did it to some Christians (I think it was mormons in the USA) equipped with his own "origin of species" (using of course the stereotype that all atheists accept evolution or the false dilemna that if you reject GAWD you must accept evolution). Needless to say the Christians were not pleased to have a taste of their own medicine. Hypocrites.

[Pezzoni]

I became an angry atheist this morning. Some shitkicker was claiming that their father was saved from a brain tumor by prayer. Not the team of highly trained, hard working medical staff treating him, but by 'Half the people in the world praying for him'.

What a fucking load of disrespectful, arrogant, and lets be honest, plain offensive bullshit.

[Macross]

There are two kinds of people who call themselves atheists. The first group, are people who say "They don’t believe in God" while the second group will say "They believe there is no God." It is usually this first group who we think of when we think of the “angry atheist.”

It is important to recognize that these people are not yet true atheists. They have the potential to become a real atheist, but they are still holding onto their religion and their faith even though they will never admit to it. Usually, the angry atheist is but the first stage to becoming a true atheist. It is a time of confusion when they start questioning their faith and beliefs and have to sort out what they used to believe in, what they want to believe in and what they will believe in. Unfortunately, some people never move beyond this stage and sometimes people will return to their religion.

When someone says 9 out of 10 atheists go back to believing in god, it is these “angry atheist” that they are referring to. They, for lack of a better term, are still driven by their faith. Usually, these are people have been raised in a religious environment. They have gone to church, read the bible, prayed regularly, loved God and Jesus, etc, and they have done everything that a good religious person is supposed to do… but, despite all this effort they have never once felt a deeper connection to God or their faith.

In times of crisis, when they turn to the Church and reach out to God for help, they feel nothing and do not receive the answers or support that they want. They come to believe that God has abandoned them, so in turn; they decide to abandon God and assume the title atheist. Either they don’t know or don’t understand what it means to be an atheist, but they do know that it’s a title that some people will find “offensive.”

Whenever they are confronted by religion, they go into angry atheist mode and start attacking and criticizing religion and the people of faith. They still doubt their “atheism” and beliefs and need to continually reinforce the idea that “they don’t believe in god.” The easiest way to accomplish this is to create a large divide between themselves and God and the religious community. Sometimes, they will even go out their way to start an argument with a religious person just so they can argue and feel superior to them.

It is the same type of behavior that religious people do whenever they attribute every bit of good fortune to God. They have this inner need to validate and reinforce their faith as to overcome any doubt in their mind. This is why they view atheists as a threat to their beliefs and why they want to impose their religious morals onto others. It is easier to believe in something when there is nothing to challenge that belief. An atheist by definition is a challenge to their beliefs and their faith.

Ironically, it’s these “angry atheists” who give real atheists a bad name. The angry atheists just happen to be more vocal then real atheists. The angry atheists will always show up around Christmas time to protest the Christmas tree or Nativity scene in front of town hall. The angry atheist will always protest any mention of the word God. It is the angry atheist who fights the Pledge of Allegiance in schools.

A real atheist, on the other hand, is one who has learned to let go of the anger and the hate. We don’t need that inner validation and constant reinforcement of our beliefs. A real atheist can respect other people’s beliefs and faith as long as our beliefs are respected in turn. We don’t need to argue religion, but we can debate religion. A real atheist can recognize that religion and faith can play an important role in someone’s life. As such, if asked by a friend or family member to observe or participate in a religious event or ceremony, we can do so and feel honored to be included in such an important event, while the angry atheist would just scoff and mock the very idea.

A real atheist knows that the law, the separation of church and state is on their side, but can let go of the small matters, like the Christmas tree or Nativity scene. The angry atheist would fight over such matters and would probably win if they pressed the issue. While a real atheist knows when to pick his battles. There are much larger and far more important battles to fight, like keeping intelligent design out of the classroom and the Ten Commandments out of the court room.

It is the angry atheist’s reckless dismissal of all things religious and smug attitude towards people of faith that many find offensive and that’s what gives all atheists a bad name.

[General Zod]

It is important to recognize that these people are not yet true atheists. They have the potential to become a real atheist, but they are still holding onto their religion and their faith even though they will never admit to it. Usually, the angry atheist is but the first stage to becoming a true atheist. It is a time of confusion when they start questioning their faith and beliefs and have to sort out what they used to believe in, what they want to believe in and what they will believe in. Unfortunately, some people never move beyond this stage and sometimes people will return to their religion.
>snip<

I assume you're familiar with the "no true Scotsman" fallacy, yes?