The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

[Master of Ossus]

Incredible!

But whenever I see the point get raised, I raise the warning as a preamble - not to you, but to everyone - it's ok to disagree, but a) make sure you've got the facts straight b) make sure your comments are respectful and never personal c) obey the rules of the site.

Now we have to have our facts straight to debate on the OS? Isn't this the SAME MODERATOR who repeatedly defended morons like DarkMasterJay even though they had repeatedly lied during debates?

[FTeik]

Watch this thread for major spin-doctoring, folks:

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &#14695890

Himmel, Arsch und Zwirn, thats pathetic.

Mace Windu: "Chancellor, the Seperatist-threat is a billion times smaller than initially expected. Yes, i don't know how intelligence could screw up that much. No, it doesn't look like you'll need all those emergency-powers after all."

A little later.

Palpatine: "General Grievous?"

Grievous: "Yes, Lord Sidious?"

Palpatine: "Didn't you tell me, that you had several quintillion droids at your disposal?"

Grievous: "I do. I counted them personally."

Palpatine: "Oh fuck."

[Connor MacLeod]

Icehawk:

Some more quotes that might help:

"But what then?" Bail Organa leaned forward, elbows to knees, fingers laced together. "How to we make Palpatine with­draw his governors? How do we stop him from garrisoning troops in all our systems?"
"We don't have to make him do anything," Padme said rea­sonably. "The Senate granted him executive powers only for the duration of the emergency—"

"Your reservations are noted, Senator Amidala. I assure you that the Republic governors are intended only to make your sys­tems safer—by coordinating planetary defense forces, and ensuring that neighboring systems mesh into cooperative units, and bringing production facilities up to speed in service to the war ef­fort. That's all. They will in no way compete with the duties and prerogatives—with the power—of the Senate."

"Which is the purpose of this petition," Mon Mothma said, laving her soft hand over Padme's. "We're hoping that a show of solidarity within the Senate might stop Palpatine from further subverting the Constitution, that's all. With the signatures of a full two thousand Senators—"
"—we still have less than we need to stop his supermajority from amending the Constitution any way he happens to want," Padme finished for her. She weighed the reader in her hand. "I am willing to present this to Palpatine, but I am losing faith in the Senate's readiness, or even ability, to rein him in. I think we should consult the Jedi."

"We are not attempting to delegitimize your government," she was saying. "That's why we're here. If we were trying to or­ganize an opposition—if we sought to impose our requests as demands—we would hardly bring them before you in this fash­ion. This petition has been signed by two thousand Senators, Chancellor. We ask only that you instruct your governors not to interfere with the legitimate business of the Senate, and that you open peace talks with the Separatists. We seek only to end the war, and bring peace and stability back to our homeworlds. Surely you can understand this."

Fang Zar unknotted his fingers from his raggedly bushy beard and shrugged. "Yes, we cannot block the Chancellor's supermajority—but we can show him that opposition to his methods is growing. Perhaps that alone might persuade him to moderate his tactics."
Bana Breemu went back to examining her fingertips. "When you present the Petition of the Two Thousand, many things may change."

But it will not be enough for the Republic," Ki-Adi-Mundi countered sadly. "Palpatine's dictatorship has been legitimized— and can be legalized, even enshrined in a revised Constitution—by the supermajority he controls in the Senate."

Basically they confirm the idea of "system" level Governors, each with regiments. furthermore, we know that 2,000 Senators opposed Palpatine initially. Palpy holds a "super-majority" meaning he should have more than 2,000 senators on his side (probably at least 3,000-4,000 if not more) Which means that the Republic at a minimum held 4,000-6,000 sectors.

An added quote from the EP1 visual dictionary:

The vast rotunda is lined with 1,024 platforms. The majority are used by sectorial senators, who represent their own planet and hundreds of others in a galactic sector.

that comes out to many hundreds or thousands of worlds. (average: we know there are at least 1.2 million as per the novel Shatterpoint, IIRC, possibly more.)

Moreover, the ITW:AOTC book makes mention of the number of troopers in a regiment: 2,304. Which should be interesting (and useful as a tidbit.)

Either way, its as you say, far more than the 3 million troopers Traviss claims, and these are simply assigned as "security forces" - even if somehow it was assumed they didn't assign "regiments" to every governer, or decided to fiddle around with the number of systems (either by referirng to the EP1 novel or AOTC novel about the "hundred thousand" or "tens of thousands" of systems) you're still looking at many millions more than the 3 million figure. In fact, you have to quite literally bend over backwards and over-complicate the issue to make the 3 million figure work.

[Vympel]

The Communications thread response on TFN as to why the entire sound off thread was deleted was entirely predictable. I said exactly how I felt, threw up my hands, and walked off. Check it out.

Link

[Surlethe]

I grabbed a copy of that thread, too. Let me know if you want it.

[Vympel]

I grabbed a copy of that thread, too. Let me know if you want it.

A copy of it should go on Wayne's database website, IMO.

[GeneralTacticus]

-snip-

And even if you accept, for the sake of argument, that it was only one regiment per sector capital, and that the Delegation of Two Thousand made up half the Senate (which we know it didn't), you're still talking about four thousand governors - close to ten million clones, in other words.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

So authors cannot be allowed to see any signs of criticism? Why am I reminded of Cheney wanting hotel televisions always set to Fox News? The fact that the thread was deleted instead of locked speaks for itself.

What you people need to realise is without those authors that you so vehemently bash and harass, there would be no Damn EU! And if you continue, you will find fewer and fewer EU books being released as authoers will turn LFL down since they heard from the authors that you bashed and harassed, that writing SW is a **** job and you get no respect from the readers.

I'm not really seeing the downside.

[Vympel]

One liner of the day award goes to ...

[Stark]

The short-sighted fans are fascinating. It's bad to criticise poor EU novels and rampant vendetta-retcons because it'll discourage people to write books? How the fuck does that work? In any OTHER industry, such feedback would be a motivator to IMPROVE QUALITY, not RUN LIKE A PACK OF SCHOOLGIRLS BECAUSE IT'S SO HARD WAAAH.

It's even funnier that Traviss was one of the most popular EU authors before she wrote garbage and turned it into a holy war. I don't understand the people that follow her 'zounds autistic' methods.

[Surlethe]

Oh, this is rich:

Vympel, you need some perspective, and badly. This isn't criticism, it's jihad.

This is not the first time fanatic fans have driven an author from this site, and I lament that it won't be the last; but the worst part is that those clearly culpable still shy away from responsibility.

Very simply, Vympel, you and the other Karen haters brought this on yourselves. You can either accept this fairly obvious truth and work on ways to improve your negativity, or you can blame us. That part is entirely up to you.

E_S

[Stark]

You know, I hate the EU as a whole. I don't care if there's MORE shit I have to ignore to enjoy Star Wars. I'm not involved in the whole Traviss situation. But the hypocrisy BURNS.

[Vympel]

My post:

Vympel, you need some perspective, and badly. This isn't criticism, it's jihad.

And how convenient it is that the entire thread was deleted so I can't ask you to point specifically to what exactly was "jihad" about it, eh? You have already claimed that the simple act of saying "that's wrong" is somehow beyond the pale (also on the now deleted thread, but I quoted you elsewhere on that) So you'll forgive me if I take anything you say about it with a mountian of salt.

This is not the first time fanatic fans have driven an author from this site, and I lament that it won't be the last; but the worst part is that those clearly culpable still shy away from responsibility.

See, that's the thing. I was unaware it was TFN's mandate to pander to the capricious natures of overly sensitive authors who can't take criticism (evem though Ms Traviss has repeatedly claimed she is quite resistant to criticism, by the way) by everyone pretending that they like and agree with what she writes. But like I said, up to you.

Very simply, Vympel, you and the other Karen haters brought this on yourselves. You can either accept this fairly obvious truth and work on ways to improve your negativity, or you can blame us. That part is entirely up to you.

You can spin it any way you like. The sound off thread was *not* filled with blatant mindless rabid oh-so-horrible Karen hating, there were people on *both* sides of the issue posting (but, as I said, contrary to Ms Traviss persistent, patronizing and insulting attempts to belittle the opposition, they were in the minority and there were far more than "7-12" people who didn't agree), and there was little, if any, direct flaming of Karen Traviss. Like MOO said, with the deletion of the entire thread, we can't even see where this supposed egregious crime supposedly arose. Because right now all it looks like to me is that everytime an author shows up we should just drop to our knees in supplication and spout Mando'a praises.

[Master of Ossus]

You know, I hate the EU as a whole. I don't care if there's MORE shit I have to ignore to enjoy Star Wars. I'm not involved in the whole Traviss situation. But the hypocrisy BURNS.

Indeed. I especially liked this post on TFN.

We're talking about politicians here, folks, and they are civilians. In reality, we have media "military correspondents" making incorrect reports all the time. Misidentifying weapons systems that have only been being used for decades--how does one confuse an F-15 and an F-16?--and some of the questions they ask interviewees are downright pathetic and strike me as indicating that the interviewer knows nothing about the topic at hand.

Politicians are really no better unless they happen to be heavily immersed in national security policy on relevent committees and actually are work-horses doing research before hearings and asking tough, probing questions of witnesses--questions that hone in like a laser-guided bomb and quickly cut to the heart of a matter. A matter that has subsistantive importance.

Let us also remember that these senators are not disinterested observers. Bail (and others like him) have a vested interest in undermining Palpatine, therefore, it is in their interests to spin information to serve their position.

Also, mentioning "troops" instead of "clones," would be typical for politicians. When's the last time a POTUS spoke about different branches of the service instead of using the catch-all generic "troops"? Differentiate between regulars and the NG? Break down casualties by service branch? By rank?

One wonders whether it was actually satirizing the positions of Traviss' defenders. The part I bolded was too ironic.

[Noble Ire]

On a somwhat related note: could someone who still can access the forums search the threads from the last flare-up (the GAR article) for a poster named "Pure Sabacc" or "Noble Ire" or some variation there of (should have a Arbiter or Ackbar av). I want to post on the Lit forum, but I can't seem to remember my account name.

[Master of Ossus]

On a somwhat related note: could someone who still can access the forums search the threads from the last flare-up (the GAR article) for a poster named "Pure Sabacc" or "Noble Ire" or some variation there of (should have a Arbiter or Ackbar av). I want to post on the Lit forum, but I can't seem to remember my account name.

I'm getting "puresabacc" on this. You can see my review of this thread here.

[Noble Ire]

On a somwhat related note: could someone who still can access the forums search the threads from the last flare-up (the GAR article) for a poster named "Pure Sabacc" or "Noble Ire" or some variation there of (should have a Arbiter or Ackbar av). I want to post on the Lit forum, but I can't seem to remember my account name.

I'm getting "puresabacc" on this. You can see my review of this thread [url=http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 38#2062138]here.

Thanks.

[Covenant]

At what point did Karen Traviss purchase the Mandalorians? Why are they always used in reference to her? I haven't read any of her books (and am not gonna go rush out to do so) so I was just wondering if someoen could say what the link is. It's gotta be more than the Mandalorian>Jango>Clone>BookAboutClones connection, right? I just find it odd and, I dunno, a little insulting. As if by thinking Mandalorians are interesting I am somehow in her camp. She seems to have seized on them as some sort of uber group (Karen's Master Race? D: ) and uses that to justify the incredible prowess of the clonetroopers--or at least does not flinch when others draw that conclusion. Seems to kinda contradict the relatively lackluster performance the majority of clonetroopers seem to display. ;p

[000]

One wonders whether it was actually satirizing the positions of Traviss' defenders. The part I bolded was too ironic.

Wettengel's being sarcastic, as usual. Look a little earlier in the thread-- he's opposed to the smaller number.

[Vympel]

Heh- me is stupid.

[Lord Poe]

The Communications thread response on TFN as to why the entire sound off thread was deleted was entirely predictable. I said exactly how I felt, threw up my hands, and walked off. Check it out.

Link

Here's my response:

Errant_Venture posted:I'm going to say it is because certain people just don't know how to be respectful of authors and it was removed in an attempt to get Traviss back/show authors that TFN supports them.

I'm going to be blunt here, but having Traviss at the JC is more important than allowing a few individuals to say whatever they want about an author. We lost Salvatore, Crispin (partly her doing), Traviss and how many others because users were disrespectful. These people continue the SW saga and the least people could do is treat them with respect and not nitpick their works and get all fanatic over an error.

My response:

So, does this apply to ALL authors, or just certain ones?

Because the constant bashing of Curtis Saxton, even by moderators goes unchecked. And speaking of death threats, signatures proclaiming tthat fans of Saxton's work should be dead are also allowed to exist.

Just let us know who's safe and who can be openly derided. Wouldn't want to go against the TOS.

[Master of Ossus]

So, does this apply to ALL authors, or just certain ones?

Because the constant bashing of Curtis Saxton, even by moderators goes unchecked. And speaking of death threats, signatures proclaiming tthat fans of Saxton's work should be dead are also allowed to exist.

Just let us know who's safe and who can be openly derided. Wouldn't want to go against the TOS.

In their defense, they just locked Ackbar_is_Back's thread "The Root of the Clone Problem: Curtis Saxton."

[Mange]

Why don't you use these quotes that MoO found made by Commander5052:

Master, I'm a Fando, but I do agree with you when I say that I couldn't find any evidence [of Karen being flamed] either.
I even scoured the old GGAR article thread to find evidence, and came up empty.

Starkiller, if anyone has done anything to Karen, I hope they feel guilty.
Thing is, we've found no evidence.
If my fellow Fandos, or anyone, have any evidence, please present it.

[Noble Ire]

So, does this apply to ALL authors, or just certain ones?

Because the constant bashing of Curtis Saxton, even by moderators goes unchecked. And speaking of death threats, signatures proclaiming tthat fans of Saxton's work should be dead are also allowed to exist.

Just let us know who's safe and who can be openly derided. Wouldn't want to go against the TOS.

In their defense, they just locked Ackbar_is_Back's thread "The Root of the Clone Problem: Curtis Saxton."

Indeed, whatever their reasons behind it, the staff at least has enough integrity to block threads for Saxton as well as Traviss.

Hrm, and yes, I am "Ackbar_is_Back". I had hoped to gather direct evidence of impartiality (if any more was needed) on the admin's part, although I suppose I'm not too disappointed it was locked; at least they're not quite as bad as Dark Moose. Still, I had hoped the thread would last a bit longer than it did; forcing the Fandos to admit to the inappropriate nature Traviss' own death threats would have been interesting.

[Fire Fly]

Master of Ossus, how much of your posts were altered?