The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

[Lord Poe]

Latest response:

ApolloSmileGirl posted:Would you mind citing specific mods, or examples of their bashing, to users that read comms but don't visit Lit?

Sure thing:

+http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp? ... t=21738646

Thrawn McEwok - "For what it's worth, my gut reaction is that this is a place a where a Trekker brain-bug has infested SW fandon (and, in Saxton's books, canon) for the worse..."

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 180963/p18

Fist_of_Mandalore - "Kudzu is right, he never call Saxton anal. I did. So, blame me if you want. It is just an opinion though, dont take it personally. Unless of course you are Dr. Saxton. Then you may take it personally."

To which mod dp4m replied:

"FTeik -- your comment was now over the line. Cool it." (Talking to another poster, and never once censoring Fist_of_Mandalore.

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 180963/p20

dp4m- "That's not entirely accurate. I personally don't give a rat's behind about Saxton the man. What I DO care about are the people who come into this forum and flout the stupidity that are his theories, believing them and spouting them to be fact when they are nothing more than glorified fanfiction in many cases."

All these examples are FAR more abrasive than ANYTHING ever said about Traviss here.

[PainRack]

Hrm, and yes, I am "Ackbar_is_Back". I had hoped to gather direct evidence of impartiality (if any more was needed) on the admin's part, although I suppose I'm not too disappointed it was locked; at least they're not quite as bad as Dark Moose. Still, I had hoped the thread would last a bit longer than it did; forcing the Fandos to admit to the inappropriate nature Traviss' own death threats would have been interesting.

Ah......... no. That's a dumb stunt to pull, Weyoun status even. Pls.

[Noble Ire]

Hrm, and yes, I am "Ackbar_is_Back". I had hoped to gather direct evidence of impartiality (if any more was needed) on the admin's part, although I suppose I'm not too disappointed it was locked; at least they're not quite as bad as Dark Moose. Still, I had hoped the thread would last a bit longer than it did; forcing the Fandos to admit to the inappropriate nature Traviss' own death threats would have been interesting.

Ah......... no. That's a dumb stunt to pull, Weyoun status even. Pls.

Yeah, in retrospect, it wasn't particularly smart, and wasn't likely to yield any results. I should probably step back from this for awhile...

[Master of Ossus]

Noble Ire: I'm not responsible for moderating the TFN boards, obviously, but that was really dumb. Don't pull shit like that, here.

Master of Ossus, how much of your posts were altered?

I can't be sure. I recall at least four or five posts that seem to have been completely deleted, some of which were fairly involved, but I kept no records of what I had posted.

[Mange]

So, what are the chances that Dr. Saxton will address this over at SWTC in the future?

[Master of Ossus]

So, what are the chances that Dr. Saxton will address this over at SWTC in the future?

I would say very slim. He has better things to do, he's busy, and he takes his LFL contract very seriously. I'm sure that they had a clause in there about not going after other authors.

[Elheru Aran]

So, what are the chances that Dr. Saxton will address this over at SWTC in the future?

I would say very slim. He has better things to do, he's busy, and he takes his LFL contract very seriously. I'm sure that they had a clause in there about not going after other authors.

Out of curiosity, have Traviss and Kaufman (IIRC he was her co-author on a book or two?) both made no comments on other authors? It's quite possible that if there's no such contract, Dr. Saxton simply doesn't care for the Web-board debates.

I think it *is* possible that he would present some calculations on the Clone Army and the Republic's military, though; IIRC, he did one on the AOTC parade scene. Whenever he updates his site to cover RotS, I imagine he'll have some observation there about how the 3 million number espoused by some sources is lucridiously low...

[Mange]

So, what are the chances that Dr. Saxton will address this over at SWTC in the future?

I would say very slim. He has better things to do, he's busy, and he takes his LFL contract very seriously. I'm sure that they had a clause in there about not going after other authors.

Out of curiosity, have Traviss and Kaufman (IIRC he was her co-author on a book or two?) both made no comments on other authors? It's quite possible that if there's no such contract, Dr. Saxton simply doesn't care for the Web-board debates.

I think it *is* possible that he would present some calculations on the Clone Army and the Republic's military, though; IIRC, he did one on the AOTC parade scene. Whenever he updates his site to cover RotS, I imagine he'll have some observation there about how the 3 million number espoused by some sources is lucridiously low...

Yeah, that is more like what I had in mind. Rather than mentioning any specific authors or LFL etc. but only presenting calculations.

[Lord Poe]

Curtis doesn't openly engage these boards, but he does lurk here.

If Curtis does do a clone webpage, any author he names will only be as reference. He's far more of a gentleman than I!

[The Original Nex]

I wonder if I should post this entire blog over at TFN just to throw an overview of their arguments and a response in their faces. I find that simply posting links to these blogs gives them a sort of pass to not reading them.

[000]

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... &start=675

I apologize in advance for inferring their intentions in asking those questions but I feel it must finally be clarified somehow by asking the following, more specific question to the main man of continuity and the keeper of Holocron.

Is the new numbers for the droid and clone canon? and does that mean it has indeed overidden the older sources?

I again apologize for bringing this up, if it is in offense to any parties invovled.

Is the new numbers for the droid and clone canon?

Yes.

[The Original Nex]

This means nothing. The 8km Executor was canon too but it was still wrong.

EDIT: Put Tasty on the spot if he chooses to respond.

May I respectfully ask Tasty, what of the other numbers from The "Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross-Sections" and "Lord of War" by Abel Pena? Are these suddenly non-canon in light of "Odds"?

[Covenant]

This means nothing. The 8km Executor was canon too but it was still wrong.

EDIT: Put Tasty on the spot if he chooses to respond.

May I respectfully ask Tasty, what of the other numbers from The "Revenge of the Sith Incredible Cross-Sections" and "Lord of War" by Abel Pena? Are these suddenly non-canon in light of "Odds"?

Hehe--you know, I just had a debate on another thread a bit lower where some people jumped on me for saying something could be canon and wrong. I used the SSD size disparity as an example, and it seemed to defuse most of the criticism. I think it's important for us to realize, and for the authors as well, that just because it's true in the world of Star Wars (ie, canon) that it doesn't mean it's right from an objective perspective. I hope some other author sees it this way and chooses to ignore Karen's numbers when they do a Clone War thing. Any chance of pushing Karen's Extended Universe farther out towards the rim would be pleasent.

[PayBack]

I'm just curious.. the open text that scrolls up the screens at the start of the movies.. is this then taken from the point of view of someone who is deluded or mislead? It must be..

Attack of the clones...

"Senator Amidala, the former Queen of Naboo, is returning to Coruscant
to vote on the critical issue of creating an army to assist the overwhelmed Jedi."

If this "war" is really just small brush-fire skirmishes, then the Jedi wouldn't be overwhelmed.. sorting our that sort of shit was their job.

Revenge of the Sith...

"War! The Republic is crumbling under attacks by the ruthless Sith Lord, Count Dooku. There are heroes on both sides. Evil is everywhere. "

The Republic is crumbling under the attacks of a small army fighting brush-fire battles???

[Mange]

I just don't get it:

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=0675

Is Ms. Traviss saying that the numbers in the AOTC:ItW and Lord of War are correct and that people were decieved or is this an attempt to further push the three million figure/tiny droid army by claiming that the numbers were much smaller and that people were decieved by that?

[Meest]

So Saxton's numbers are what the observer sees and hers what the characters see? That's quite the cop-out.

Here's a question for anyone that has been around the official and TFN forums for years, is there a difference in the way they treat an active author compared to one that has finished all their EU works? Just wondering if they pander active authors then once out of contract they are free game.

[NRS Guardian]

So Saxton's numbers are what the observer sees and hers what the characters see?

Wouldn't this mean that Saxton's numbers are the more reliable since objective observers are less likely to be decieved than a character in the thick of things and susceptible to being mislead?

This could open the doors to a retcon of "Odds" in which its revealed the Clones were hitting small factories that the Republic knew about and the actual production facilities were well hidden in the Rim. Also, the numbers from the factory could be false intelligence the Seps planted and when it was sent to Mace and co. they disregarded it as such because they could see the factory numbers were obviously wrong about how many droids were being built when they're fighting quadrillions of droids. Also, it could be that due to the unreliability of Skirata and his Nulls Palpatine and the Jedi were holding out intelligence concerning the true number of clones, especially considering how hard they would likely take it if they found out the Republic was losing billions of clones in battle.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Moose is such a rabid defender of Traviss' rediculous figures. I have to wonder why it's so darn important to him.

[Mange]

So Saxton's numbers are what the observer sees and hers what the characters see?

Wouldn't this mean that Saxton's numbers are the more reliable since objective observers are less likely to be decieved than a character in the thick of things and susceptible to being mislead?

This could open the doors to a retcon of "Odds" in which its revealed the Clones were hitting small factories that the Republic knew about and the actual production facilities were well hidden in the Rim. Also, the numbers from the factory could be false intelligence the Seps planted and when it was sent to Mace and co. they disregarded it as such because they could see the factory numbers were obviously wrong about how many droids were being built when they're fighting quadrillions of droids. Also, it could be that due to the unreliability of Skirata and his Nulls Palpatine and the Jedi were holding out intelligence concerning the true number of clones, especially considering how hard they would likely take it if they found out the Republic was losing billions of clones in battle.

Hmm, well I guess I could buy this with some caveats. Either the factory that was struck in Odds was a small-scale production plant or the production figures falsified. Likewise, the Lama Su conversation must've been doctored.
In any case, a neutral observer that "sees" millions of divisions of clone troopers and quintillions of battle droids naturally trumps what any character is seeing (also, to me it seems as if they've been decieved about the scale of the war, which is vastly bigger than they seem to have believed).

[Master of Ossus]

Hmm, well I guess I could buy this with some caveats. Either the factory that was struck in Odds was a small-scale production plant or the production figures falsified. Likewise, the Lama Su conversation must've been doctored.

IIRC, though, the story states it's the largest factory outside of Geonosis.

In any case, a neutral observer that "sees" millions of divisions of clone troopers and quintillions of battle droids naturally trumps what any character is seeing (also, to me it seems as if they've been decieved about the scale of the war, which is vastly bigger than they seem to have believed).

True.

[Mange]

Hmm, well I guess I could buy this with some caveats. Either the factory that was struck in Odds was a small-scale production plant or the production figures falsified. Likewise, the Lama Su conversation must've been doctored.

IIRC, though, the story states it's the largest factory outside of Geonosis.

Well, it's stated in Odds that:

It was a high-value target. The factory was said to be one of the largest outside Geonosis. Again, intel seemed to have lost somehing in the translation.

So this would indicate that the intel could be wrong.

[Xess]

IIRC, though, the story states it's the largest factory outside of Geonosis.

Which if said by the clone would translate to the largest factory outside of Geonosis he ever saw, not the largest factory the Seps have.

[FTeik]

In his conversation with Jedi-Master Rohar Kim in the comic "Bloodlines" Palpatine explains, that he did his best to make their victories look good and their losses look small. Could it be something like this they're talking about?

[K. A. Pital]

Is it just me, or is Karen backing off from "ODDS is teh true and only" to "that's a character's view, so it can be wrong"?

[Surlethe]

Is it just me, or is Karen backing off from "ODDS is teh true and only" to "that's a character's view, so it can be wrong"?

I got the same impression. At least, this latest quote permits some flexibility with respect to retconning the fiasco.