The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-02 04:39am

If she's backing off, and all this gets swept under the carpet, how do you think the retards will take it? Just forget about it? Pretend it never happened?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-02 04:52am

It's simple. The 3 million debates are now off-hands on the OS.

Because... because it's like the Executor debates.

And as we all know, Executor was a EU error resolved YEARS later.

I can't understand the TOS' take on things: "well' just squash any discussion of a problem until it becomes so bad on the Net that we just have to change it under public pressure?"

Because that's what was with Executor; now it's the clones. What's the point? To wait until people start writing letters to LFL? I already am.

Whatever. I guess I was a bit disillusioned today.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-02 04:56am

I don't get it. One moment she's saying one thing and the other another thing (the May 02, 2006 01:43 AM post):

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=1470

Oh, and is it SD.net that's a "known troll zone"?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-02 05:21am

Mange the Swede
No. She means the SSD/Endor Holocaust-like debates are a troll zone.

While I agree with her, that doesn't change the simple fact that the problem is real. Because month-long debates do not arise out of nothing.

And year-long debates - as with the SSD - either!

How can she even point to the SSD debate, while it is clear that it's almost certainly a trolling zone, the problem itself (SSD length error) existed and required correction. So does the clone problem, regardless of individual behaviour.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-02 05:25am

Stas Bush wrote:Mange the Swede
No. She means the SSD/Endor Holocaust-like debates are a troll zone.

While I agree with her, that doesn't change the simple fact that the problem is real. Because month-long debates do not arise out of nothing.

And year-long debates - as with the SSD - either!

How can she even point to the SSD debate, while it is clear that it's almost certainly a trolling zone, the problem itself (SSD length error) existed and required correction. So does the clone problem, regardless of individual behaviour.

Alright, I see what you mean. As for the SSD debate, I don't even see why that is being brought up, it was settled quite some time ago.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-02 05:39am

Only settled by the faction that isn't totally selfabsorbed and obsessed with keeping a debate going for the sake of pissing people off.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-02 05:51am

Whatever, I don't mind. She closes out from discussion, LFL comes ahead. Just make it "Executor_v2.0"

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-02 05:59am

Stas Bush wrote:Whatever, I don't mind. She closes out from discussion, LFL comes ahead. Just make it "Executor_v2.0"

Yeah, but now I think the matter makes somewhat more sense (even if it's not the intended way).

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-05-02 07:29am

Looks like they ID'd me. I'm surprised Dark Moose didn't already ban me, but then again I was careful not to outright lie or say anything offensive. I just ambiguously said that Wayne's Database was "quite a site," and that everyone should read it carefully to gain an understanding of the issue. I did this to increase the chances of someone reading the site objectively, instead of with Fando goggles on.

I did make one reply though:

Darth-Jango wrote:
Karen Traviss wrote:The moderators know your intentions already.
My only intention in posting on this forum was to tell people to read that site carefully, as it can really give you an understanding of this whole issue. I stand by that. That is all I will say here.

I wouldn't be surprised if they found some way to construe this as "passive aggressive behavior" or "harassment."

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-02 07:41am

She is irrelevant as of now. This issue now has to be brought up on a higher level if there's a hope of fixing it.

A petition maybe, eh?..

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-02 07:55am

Huh? What does 'Mods know your intentions' even MEAN? You're a troll because you post on SDN now?

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-05-02 07:57am

You're not going to get these people to admit they're wrong. You're just not. You're not going to get LFL to admit they fucked up. It's simply not going to happen. No offence, but I don't see any reason to write letters or petitions etc etc.

I just treat it the same as any other EU fuck-up. Rubbish it if for the nonsense that it is if it ever becomes an issue in discussion, and move on. Eventually it'l be changed. I'm resigned to it being around for a while, but I don't see why that's a problem. It will always be bullshit, just like 8km SSDs, 5-minute set-up E-Webs, 15m AT-ATs, 160km Death Star IIs, SSDs that bankrupted the Empire, IG-88 controlling the Death Star II, Luke fighting Vader on Minban before TESB, blah blah blah.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-02 08:03am

Vympel
Well, I'd guess so. I overreacted to a largely irrelevant matter. Hell, I don't even read most of the rubbish EU is spewing out every day...

Makes me wonder why I even cared to make posts on TOS and TFN after a good year of being away.

But the Executor precendent was very demonstrative. Takes 20+ years, I guess.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-02 08:06am

It's simple human psychology: the people who make a crap product will never admit that it's crap. They would rather lash out at the critics.

Ultimately, the generally poor quality of EU literature is a problem that stems in large part from people like Traviss and her defenders, who are more concerned with their own vision of Star Wars than that of George Lucas. And it only hurts the Star Wars franchise that they act like this, but once again, it's simple human nature. They don't want to admit lapses in the quality of their merchandise, so they would rather attack the "talifans" than re-examine their own work (never mind the irony that the real Taliban was characterized by its disdain for freedom of speech, and she seeks to silence criticism).

Sorry Karen, but we're not the "Talifans"; we are just ordinary people who are pointing out that your latest contributions to the EU are not very good. Grow up and deal with it.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-02 08:06am

Vympel wrote:You're not going to get these people to admit they're wrong. You're just not. You're not going to get LFL to admit they fucked up. It's simply not going to happen. No offence, but I don't see any reason to write letters or petitions etc etc.

I just treat it the same as any other EU fuck-up. Rubbish it if for the nonsense that it is if it ever becomes an issue in discussion, and move on. Eventually it'l be changed. I'm resigned to it being around for a while, but I don't see why that's a problem. It will always be bullshit, just like 8km SSDs, 5-minute set-up E-Webs, 15m AT-ATs, 160km Death Star IIs, SSDs that bankrupted the Empire, IG-88 controlling the Death Star II, Luke fighting Vader on Minban before TESB, blah blah blah.

Well, since both sets of figures for the GAR and the droid army are canon (one from an objective position and one from a character position as discussed on the previous page) this might not be too bad after all (even if it's far from good).

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-05-02 08:14am

This could very well take years. However, I'm not content to wait around that long hoping for LFL to correct the error itself. The SSD debate was different, because guys like Saxton had to raise awareness that the problem even existed, and originally, all official books were consistent in saying that the ship was 8 km long (with the exception of the obscure From Star Wars to Indiana Jones). A lot of people didn't even think there was a problem, and visual scaling (even when the ship is clearly more than 5 miles long) was not perceived by many to be as authoritative as text.

The "3 million" issue is different, because the fandos know it's stupid. There are also many official books which contradict it, and it's incredibly blatant in its stupidity (seriously, a non-clone Clone Wars and the Jedi conspiring with Palpatine?

).

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-05-02 08:15am

Mange the Swede wrote: Well, since both sets of figures for the GAR and the droid army are canon (one from an objective position and one from a character position as discussed on the previous page) this might not be too bad after all (even if it's far from good).

In terms of reasoned argument, the clone numbers- and the appallingly bad "Odds" retcon, are trivially easy to debunk. Anyone who doesn't have an outrageous hard-on for fitting any EU material into the continuity at any price, would find the notion of a 3,000,000 strong clone army utterly outrageous. That's not just "serious" fans who like the details. Anyone with a passing like for the films who remembers (or is reminded of) details like thousands of systems, ten thousand more systems, etc. would instantly scoff at that number.

As for the pathetic defenses of this falsehood, their reaction would be "what? that's just stupid."

Remember, the people who came up with this crap didn't think they would have to put much effort into defending it. If they had, they probably would've reconsidered their position and never printed this shit in the first place. They painted themselves into a corner and have been thinking up fucking stupid rationalizations for it ever since.

Don't forget that before "Odds", these schmucks claimed the kill ratio between clone and droids started at 1:200 and only went up. People forget that now. They never for a second stopped and thought "hey, maybe this quadrillions versus millions thing is bullshit"- they only went and tried to "correct" it when people shouted out "BULLSHIT!".

In fact, if I had absolutely nothing better to do with my time, I would seriously consider making a fake Penn & Teller Bullshit! Star Wars edition episode (with two fans acting as Penn & Teller) heaping ridicule on the entire affair. That would be hilarious.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-02 08:24am

Anyone with a passing like for the films who remembers (or is reminded of) details like thousands of systems, ten thousand more systems, etc. would instantly scoff at that number.

Pointing out that CIS planned to build a Death Star at TF.n won a point in the debate about their capacity. And that's just about as obvious and straight-off-movie as it can get.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2006-05-02 02:17pm

Stas Bush wrote:Pointing out that CIS planned to build a Death Star at TF.n won a point in the debate about their capacity. And that's just about as obvious and straight-off-movie as it can get.

I simply cannot believe how ignorant all of these people are. How can building droids be as difficult as building a Death Star?

That exact thing happened the last time this came up--Thrawn McEwok was trying to argue that the droids were useless because the CIS couldn't deploy them. I pointed out that the logistical capacity of the SW universe easily dwarfs the requirements for moving the droid army by pointing out that the requirements to move an ocean dwarf the requirements to move droids, and the DSII definitively proves that their industrial capacity can crank out droids in the quintillions range.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-05-02 02:57pm

And if any of KT Jelly's minions are still reading this...who's "hiding"?

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-02 03:10pm

Vympel wrote: In terms of reasoned argument, the clone numbers- and the appallingly bad "Odds" retcon, are trivially easy to debunk. Anyone who doesn't have an outrageous hard-on for fitting any EU material into the continuity at any price, would find the notion of a 3,000,000 strong clone army utterly outrageous. That's not just "serious" fans who like the details. Anyone with a passing like for the films who remembers (or is reminded of) details like thousands of systems, ten thousand more systems, etc. would instantly scoff at that number.

Absolutely (and I can't help but wonder how movie purists have enjoyed this debate).

Vympel wrote:As for the pathetic defenses of this falsehood, their reaction would be "what? that's just stupid."

Remember, the people who came up with this crap didn't think they would have to put much effort into defending it. If they had, they probably would've reconsidered their position and never printed this shit in the first place. They painted themselves into a corner and have been thinking up fucking stupid rationalizations for it ever since.

True. Something that I found interesting was this statement from Sue Rostoni on the issue on how things are approved:

Leland and I fact-check all the fiction that is published to be sure that it stays within continuity and within the spirit of Star Wars. There is nothing that an author writes, nothing that gets published, that does not go through at least two people, and when we have issues, it's taken to the larger group. Nothing is published that has not been thoroughly vetted. Perhaps I'll do a blog around our approval process. Would that help??

(Emphasis mine.)
So, it comes down to two people (or in case of disagreement, to a group of people) to decide what's in the spirit of Star Wars or not If we look at the clone issue (and for the moment ignores the absurdities of the figures of the non-clone Clone Wars), it seems as if neither of these two people (or if anything was referred to the larger group) have seen the movies. I was reminded to another argument elsewhere yesterday, namely that we in AOTC, sees massive amounts of clone fetuses, young clone boys around the age of 5 (around the age of 10 due to the growth acceleration) and finished clones. This has been totally forgotten in the later EU in general and Odds in particular. That this is something that the continuity people missed is beyond me. What's also strange is that they somehow missed that they've approved two books (the AOTC:ItW and the Complete Locations) which shows that this was going on in cloning centers spread throughout Kamino as well as four years of Clone Wars literature that paints a completely different picture. They've also forgotten the ROTS:ICS and the statements therein. As for making sure that things stays "within the spirit of Star Wars", that's something that has failed miserably. The movies have always been about timeless themes, but the EU, especially the EU-material in question, tries too hard (IMO) to explain things with focus on contemporary issues. It falls flat and the attempts to explain the reasoning behind the stories in blogs etc. fails and feels contrieved and uninspired (and worse yet, detractors are ridiculed).
Now, Sue Rostoni says that:

If you have questions about the number of Clone troopers, feel free to discuss why you think that's a small number. Talk about what Palpatine had in mind all along, what the purpose of the Clone Wars was. Discuss all of it. If you can't get your head around it then maybe you don't entirely understand what was going on. If you then want to slam somebody because you have a disagreement, slam LFL. Slam me and Leland.

Well, that was responded to and see how well that went:
+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=1485
Hopefully they will open up to some sort of discussion without Dark Moose showing up and banning people (how a moderator simply can ban someone is beyond me. I thought most boards left that up to administrators to decide. IMO HS members that were banned because of this should have a refund).

Vympel wrote:Don't forget that before "Odds", these schmucks claimed the kill ratio between clone and droids started at 1:200 and only went up. People forget that now. They never for a second stopped and thought "hey, maybe this quadrillions versus millions thing is bullshit"- they only went and tried to "correct" it when people shouted out "BULLSHIT!".

Yes, and the retconn went completely in the other direction (and this would've been an easy fix). Instead the people who are amongst the most knowledgeable, the fans, were ignored.

Vympel wrote:In fact, if I had absolutely nothing better to do with my time, I would seriously consider making a fake Penn & Teller Bullshit! Star Wars edition episode (with two fans acting as Penn & Teller) heaping ridicule on the entire affair. That would be hilarious.

LOL!

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-05-03 12:09pm

Does anyone know how many other cities were dedicated to specifically cloning on Kamino? My knowledge of EU material has decline proportionally as my distain for the EU grows. I find it difficult to believe that only Tipoca City was the primary cloning center and that the Kaminoans, with a 10 year head start, could not produce an army at least within the several hundred millions as the first generation.

Imagine how Sifo Dyas would've reacted if he knew he was getting ripped off.

Sifo Dyas: Prime Minister, my master has bid me to order a grand army to fight a war the galaxy has not seen in a millenia. Can you deliever this army in ten years time?

Prime Minister: We can make a grand army of three million, five million at the most, in ten years time. Will that suffice?

Sifo Dyas: That is a grand army? Fucking christ, I'll just go ask the clone people from Khomm in Kevin J. Anderson's crappy Darksaber to make me an army. Three million? Christ that's pathetic...

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-05-03 12:38pm

Fire Fly wrote:Does anyone know how many other cities were dedicated to specifically cloning on Kamino? My knowledge of EU material has decline proportionally as my distain for the EU grows. I find it difficult to believe that only Tipoca City was the primary cloning center and that the Kaminoans, with a 10 year head start, could not produce an army at least within the several hundred millions as the first generation.

I don't know if any real number is given, but this quote from ITW AOTC says that there were cloning facilities all over the planet:

The clone military education complex, which dominates Tipoca City, is the biggest training center on Kamino. Its current production is dedicated to fulfilling the Republic contract, the largest cloning project the Kaminoan government has ever undertaken. When Obi-Wan arrives, Tipoca is already primed to deliver 200,000 clone troops, while facilities across the planet are equipped to produce millions more.

I don't like this entire quote though, since it sounds like the Kaminoans could only produce troops in the millions. However, this was probably only intended to refer to the initial batch of clones. At the very least, this, along with the quote that Kamino has a population of 1 billion, refutes the bullshit that the planet didn't have the room and resources to handle more than a few million clones.

Another part of the book mentions millions of clone divisions:

The first batch of clone divisions are ready for deployment; millions more are undergoing intensive performance evaluations.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-03 02:07pm

Gah. Chee didn't answer yet about how the ODDS and ICS numbers relate to each other. But people over there, KT included, have trashed the thread.

What I dislike is that there's a lot of people who essentially trash the thread where CHEE's answers are thought for, and then start up a discussion between themselves, instead of letting Chee answer the god damn question.

KT and JamesGilmer answer a question for Chee? WTF is THAT supposed to mean - did they suddenly become Chee?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-03 06:44pm

If you were very cynical, you might think that KT Jelly gets into any thread and restates her stance very quickly, so that any OTHER LFL dudes that show up are trapped by the need to show soldiarity. She gets in first, nobody has the balls to contradict her yet.

Once this blows over, she better not have a career left. People say she's written non-SW books... but she better not ever be able to sell another one. All the Fandolorians will just be HEARTBROKEN.