The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-05-04 03:06am

From the TF.net forum Odds debate, does the continuous usage of smilies by the 3 million defender suggest that they know they are wrong but are willing to stick their fingers in their ears and continue to spout the line, "But there still isn't any concrete hard evidence!!"? The way they have been conducting this entire debate suggests they know their position is unreasonable and that they have failed to produce credible evidence to support their numbers and assertions but also know that they can twist the ambiguity of Star Wars to their advantage. This reminds me of Dave Chapelle's skit on the R. Kelly incidence jury selection (Link).

DA: ...what more would it take you to believe he is guilty?

Dave Chapelle: Alright, if I saw a tape of R. Kelly peeing on a girl while he was singing pissing on her and the girl is holding two forms of government ID while a police officer was there, like four or five of my buddies and Neil taking notes and his grandmother has to be there to confirm his identity.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-04 03:48am

The way they have been conducting this entire debate suggests they know their position is unreasonable

They are going nuts again with this whole Non-Clone War rubbish. I got tired of presenting arguments... and replied accordingly.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-04 04:10am

Stas Bush wrote:
The way they have been conducting this entire debate suggests they know their position is unreasonable
They are going nuts again with this whole Non-Clone War rubbish. I got tired of presenting arguments... and replied accordingly.
*Snip picture*

Those screenshots are absolutely great! I think it's quite funny that the opposition to the 67 Acclamators (corrected by Jim) in those screenshots you posted over at TFN (with a total of 1,118,900 clones or very close to 1,5 million along with the Acclamators seen at the end of AOTC) is centered on "you can't prove they're full" followed by smilies.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2006-05-04 04:18am

I really haven't gotten involved in this much, other than observing that it's stupid, directly in conflict with the epic spirit of Star Wars, and badly limits what other writers might wish to do with the EU during this time period. Hats off to all you witnesses for the prosecution...

...my, but doesn't this seem a bit like the Enron trial?

Post by **Vympel** » 2006-05-04 05:32am

It's truly gratifying to see that the more the debate goes on, the more evidence is arrayed against this absurdity. Wayne can make a really comprehensive page from the work done. The Clone War cartoon Acclamators are especially pwnage.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-04 05:56am

Vympel wrote:It's truly gratifying to see that the more the debate goes on, the more evidence is arrayed against this absurdity. Wayne can make a really comprehensive page from the work done. The Clone War cartoon Acclamators are especially pwnage.

Yes, I couldn't agree more.

Every time KT mentions perspective, it becomes more and more contrieved:
+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=0690
Together with:
+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... tart=01575

What direction is she going to take? Is it A) the outside observer is misled and the war is really much smaller than it seems or B) the clones are misled to believe that the war is enormously much smaller than they seem to believe or C) that it's just a matter of perspective.

Obviously, A and C doesn't work and I just bring myself to believe that KT means B (and I don't see a reason for it either)...

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-04 06:57am

The Clone War cartoon Acclamators are especially pwnage.

Thanks

just ruffled the good ol' Clone Wars.

And it's funny how they _never_ reply to the fact that the Republic is laying siege to CIS worlds in the Rim. Are they really thinking you can lay siege to multiple worlds for months when the enemy has forces overpowering your puny siege by a great thousand times?

Pathetic.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-04 11:28am

Well, TMcE is not giving up:
+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 6/p39/?952

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-04 11:35am

I'm not sure you linked the right page, didn't see his post there, but there was a guy there who apparently had been in the group of "3 million clones" supporters. He apparently gave up when faced with all the inconsistencies and encouraged people to accept the sheer size of the galaxy. Also the fact that no-one could explain why the army was so small, after the arguments for this interpretation fell on their own ludicrous assumptions. Nice to see someone using their heads. 8)

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2006-05-04 11:47am

Mange the Swede wrote:Well, TMcE is not giving up:
+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 6/p39/?952

TMcE is immune to sanity. I had one of those tf.netters on my own board before, and he was unable to cope with any ESD "SSD" over 8 km, aside from the Executor, so after a brief argument, he left permanently.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2006-05-04 12:04pm

VT-16 wrote:I'm not sure you linked the right page, didn't see his post there, but there was a guy there who apparently had been in the group of "3 million clones" supporters. He apparently gave up when faced with all the inconsistencies and encouraged people to accept the sheer size of the galaxy. Also the fact that no-one could explain why the army was so small, after the arguments for this interpretation fell on their own ludicrous assumptions. Nice to see someone using their heads.

I guess it has to do with board settings (we've had similar problems before). It's currently the last post of that thread (after Vympel's post).

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-04 12:15pm

You mean McEwok? Actually is close to conceding. Or it seems so to me. I didn't have much experience talking to him, and essentially I don't know him.

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-05-04 12:45pm

Thrawn does not conceede, he changes the subject.

For instance, I was refuting the WEG numbers for an ISD HTL armarment, and doing so with direct quotes from the ICS.

First he charged that I was quoting out of context. (Nicely ofcourse...)
Next he "interpreted" the quotes to mean something else. (That took a post or two.)
Then he began the whole, "doesn't matter if it fits with models from the movies, visuals aren't accurate anyway," stuff...

...and then, nothing.

No concession, just started talking about something else. (Not sure what, I think it was Interdictors.....yup, he said physics-changing tech was soo prevelant in SW that we cannot apply basic physical properties to visuals or tech in Sw

)

As I think he is going to start doing with the Clone issue very soon......

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-04 12:47pm

unable to cope with

Unable to cope with certain types of information? Sounds almost like a brain disorder. I just don't get that. What could possibly be so interesting about sticking to internally non-sensical positions, once you've accepted the norms of a specific fictional universe?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-04 12:53pm

Next he "interpreted" the quotes to mean something else

I've had a few of those from him on Wookiepedia:

One guess what he was talking about here.

"I think "ultimate Star Dreadnought" is too strong a phrase."

(About the "clone divisions sentence")

"That quote, is it talking about individual clones, or is this silently understood?"

About the end of ROTS :

Could the ship Palpatine and Vader are on, be one of the new Imperial Star Destroyers the Venators were said to escort?

(Note, Imperators were not commisioned until after the CW, and the quote referenced talked of "heavy, Republic battleships"

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-05-04 01:01pm

McEwok's tactics are to be passive aggressive, suggestive, and peripheral. It allows him to take a stance without taking a stance on certain issues. Its the same tactics used by dishonest debators.

Edit: For the military afficionados, what is the standard doctrine, in terms of numbers, used to alleviate a besieged city if the two opposing forces are comparable in terms of technology? 3:1? 2:1? Something else?

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-05-04 01:03pm

I especially like how the talk of Regional Governors ruling over Sectors, by Palpatine, was "interpreted" as...

"My current interpretation would be that the Sector Governance Act gives Palpatine authority to appoint governors with authority over planets (potentially one governor per planet)"

Its good stuff...

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-05-04 01:06pm

IceHawk-181 wrote:I especially like how the talk of Regional Governors ruling over Sectors, by Palpatine, was "interpreted" as...

"My current interpretation would be that the Sector Governance Act gives Palpatine authority to appoint governors with authority over planets (potentially one governor per planet)"
Its good stuff...

Jesus christ...there's no ambiguity in regional governor. He even uses the words himself in Sector Governance Act.

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-05-04 01:12pm

I pointed out the difference using Canon definitions for the words.

His rebuttal?

We can't rely upon partisan Senators for literal accuracy....

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-05-04 01:14pm

IceHawk-181 wrote:I pointed out the difference using Canon definitions for the words.

His rebuttal?

We can't rely upon partisan Senators for literal accuracy....

A bottle says poison. His interpretation? The bottle could mean to say its a mild stomach irritant.

IceHawk-181 · Post by **IceHawk-181** » 2006-05-04 01:16pm

Actually, we cannot be sure there really is a bottle, I mean, did any non-partisan objective in universe observers mention it?

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-04 02:09pm

Edit: For the military afficionados, what is the standard doctrine, in terms of numbers, used to alleviate a besieged city if the two opposing forces are comparable in terms of technology? 3:1? 2:1? Something else?

Doctrinal offensive: 3:1
It should be noted that doctrinal offensives are not always possible in strategic terms and thus they are carried out in tactical terms.

Which means that you create a doctrinal superiority on a tactical level, even if you can't do it on a strategic scale.

This can be achieved if the enemy has not properly deployed his forces over a certain territorial hold (Geonosis is a very good example of someone caught pants down). If the siege lasts a month, I can't see a mighty star conglomerate NOT deploying it's superior forces, neither on a strategic nor on a tactical scale!!

It means that their reaction delay to an attack is a month, could someone seriously believe it?!!

That's ridiculous. Especially given the hyperdrive speeds, where a fast ship can travel the galactic radius in hours. Someone needs to grow a brain at TF.n, surely.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-04 02:15pm

If I recall correctly, SW Republic: The Siege of Saleucami, had it going for 5 months.

And the one in SW: Clone Wars, had already been ongoing for one month, when Anakin found a way to sabotage the target city's shield and allow an invasion.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-04 02:19pm

VT-16
FIVE MONTH?

And the CIS were like...
"Uh, there's like, few thousand clones are sieging a whole planet of ours. We have a thousand-times stronger force at hand, but they're like... UBER CLONEZ AND JEDIZ!!!"

Five month later.

"Anakin, good news. The CIS are total retards. Saleucami has fallen."

Fire Fly · Post by **Fire Fly** » 2006-05-04 02:32pm

Stas Bush wrote:VT-16
FIVE MONTH?

And the CIS were like...
"Uh, there's like, few thousand clones are sieging a whole planet of ours. We have a thousand-times stronger force at hand, but they're like... UBER CLONEZ AND JEDIZ!!!"

Five month later.

"Anakin, good news. The CIS are total retards. Saleucami has fallen."

More likely the CIS was not able to gain local naval superiority or felt that the world could hold out and a counter attack was not necessary.

From the starwars.com databanks:

Saleucami is a mostly desert world, making its name -- which translates into "Oasis" in the Wroonian tongue -- notably ironic.

....

Though there are small scattered townships across the desert surface, Saleucami only has one real concentration of civilization that could be accurately called a city. It is the site of the planet's interstellar ports. Deep beneath this massive caldera is a network of magma streams and geothermal vents that power the city and provide sweltering warmth during the cold desert nights.

....

With the Separatists controlling the city, it was crucial that the Republic forces be well supplied. The Jedi and clone forces set up camp on the rim of the city's caldera, and fought their way inward. The siege lasted for five grueling months before the Separatist forces there were defeated.

So indeed, the Republic must've had a substantially very large naval force to continuously supply their surface army since. Moreover, given that its a desert world, the logistics would also increase substantially.