Upper limit photon torpedoes...

[SirNitram]

I understand but the torp didn't just carry on its merry way it did change course therefore if it altered its course by that much it could have altered it by more.

Admitted, it acquired a new target at some other point. However, did at any point it reverse direction? That is not what I recall.

[Darth Servo]

Darth Servo:OK I tire of this - point to the place where where I say it wasn't armed.

Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick.

OK, you didn't actually say "unarmed" but you did try and argue that it would "make more sense" to test a guidance system with a lower yield than a max one.

Guess what! If you aren't sure of the guidance system, it would make the MOST sense to test it UNARMED.

If the Feddies don't have the sense to take the warhead completely off to test a guidance system, why do you think they'll have the brains to lower its payload at all?

[TheDarkling]

Well its not like its impossible, I remember on Enterprise where their new torps (or are they missiles??) actual pulled a 180 and headed straight back for the ship.

So it acquired a new target - how is it that it can acquire a new target yet its certain that the enterprise wont be that new target.

Its acquires a new target, it then changes course - are you saying the Enterprise couldn't become the new target or that the torpedo couldn't have turned around?

[SirNitram]

Well its not like its impossible, I remember on Enterprise where their new torps (or are they missiles??) actual pulled a 180 and headed straight back for the ship.

So it acquired a new target - how is it that it can acquire a new target yet its certain that the enterprise wont be that new target.

Its acquires a new target, it then changes course - are you saying the Enterprise couldn't become the new target or that the torpedo couldn't have turned around?

I am saying that, assuming they have any marginal amount of competence(ENT shows us that in that time period, they lacked even that shred), they would have corrected any of those errors before deployment to the Flagship.

Again, the 11% quote clearly shows they were also to be testing the explosive yield.

Now, I am going to put something down here, and someone feel free to correct me. I'm still riding my meds pretty high.

1) Darkling claims the Torps could be reduced yield.

2) Others point out no canon dialogue points to this conclusion.

3) Darkling points out it could be so due to fears about guidance.

Now, from my medication addled point of view this appears to be a 'prove the negative' situation: The Wars side has to prove, without telepathy at their side(Damn my supernatural powers being shorted out by painkillers!), that the E-D's crew did not fear the torpedo pulling a U-turn. This seems impossible, and probably is. Isn't it the responsibility of the person claiming something like this to prove it to be so?

[TheDarkling]

Darth Servo: A reduced yield wapon wuold have done minimal damage (PD taking it out at close range, shields could snap on, etc).

You are right however that no yield would be the first test then work your way up however we don't know how Pho torps work, prehaps a minimal yeild is necessary (if their engine draws fuel from the warhead) prehaps there was no active warhead and the antimatter for fuel was all that was on board.

It simply seems to me than double digit KT dont fit in with what most other examples tell us (the Feds can level a civilised world in a very short space of time yet they only have very low yield kt weapons?)

If you take this yield as being in agreement with what your opinion of trek firepower is based upon what you have seen then fine it works, I don't think it fits thus I find an explanation to fit it within the framework of my opinon based upon what I have seen.

[Darth Servo]

So it acquired a new target - how is it that it can acquire a new target yet its certain that the enterprise wont be that new target.

Its acquires a new target, it then changes course - are you saying the Enterprise couldn't become the new target or that the torpedo couldn't have turned around?

Let's review the types of homing projectiles in real life.

Heat seekers. Not likely they would be using these to target COLD ASTEROIDS. Besides, we've seen only one in the entire history of Star Trek and that was in Trek 6 where they needed to heavily modify a torp.

Image Recs. Will only target the Enterprise if their programming is seriously screwed up.

Friend or Foe. Again, can't see why they would use these to target ASTEROIDS.

Did I miss any?

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: I'm not asking you to prove they didn't fear it pulling a U turn

I'm saying that testing a new guidance system with a full yeild explosive would be stupid in the extreme and thus tis could account for the yeild being so low (unless you are of the opinion in fits in well with other examples in which case it was probably at full yield from you POV).

Oh and the new guidance was a creation of worfs and not implemented by the fleet (as I recall).

[TheDarkling]

Darth Servo: Lets review in trek - Enterprises own missile turns around and heads straight for it, obviously some sort of sensor allows for it then and since canon > real life its at least possible.

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: I'm not asking you to prove they didn't fear it pulling a U turn

I'm saying that testing a new guidance system with a full yeild explosive would be stupid in the extreme and thus tis could account for the yeild being so low (unless you are of the opinion in fits in well with other examples in which case it was probably at full yield from you POV).

Oh and the new guidance was a creation of worfs and not implemented by the fleet (as I recall).

This is a distinct claim, and it is impossible to directly refute(That is, provide canon evidence that says no, that isn't what they are thinking). However, it is on you to provide some proof that this is, in fact, the case. This isn't a legal trial, where all you need to do is create reasonable doubt, after all.

[TheDarkling]

Going by that logic then we take ST 5 as the standard Photon Torp firepower because we can't prove it was set to a lower yield, I also believe (not that it matter since the ICS apparently outranks the EU) that Daala once ordered all her weapons to fire at full power (the result of which was a few forest fires) yet even thuogh it was specifically stated the weapons were on full power people argued that since people were on the ground the weapons were reduced yield, this was to get the weapon figures to mesh, thats what im going accept what im saying is reasonable and not specifically contradicted, if double digits is in line with other fire power calcs then carry on, if not then we have a reason why not.

[Darth Servo]

Darth Servo: Lets review in trek - Enterprises own missile turns around and heads straight for it, obviously some sort of sensor allows for it then and since canon > real life its at least possible.

Yes, let's review Trek. You make up an explaination out of thin air why they would test with a low yield torp and not an unarmed one, even though you admitted that an unarmed one would make a hell of a lot more sense.

I was not trying to refute canon with real life. I was trying to find ways to justify the crew's speculation that the torp might target them. Like I said at the end of my last post, "Did I miss any?" The Torp obviously doesn't home in on any of Trek ship's technobabble emissions, because asteroids don't produce any. And even if they did, shouldn't the Enterprise crew just shut off that particular emmision from the ship? Or will you try to argue that they can't and this would therefore be yet another case where stupid ship disign comes into play yet again?

They were ovbiously testing firepower because the Torps had an 11% increase over the normal, therefore your standard "low yield" excuse is just that, an excuse.

[SirNitram]

Going by that logic then we take ST 5 as the standard Photon Torp firepower because we can't prove it was set to a lower yield, I also believe (not that it matter since the ICS apparently outranks the EU) that Daala once ordered all her weapons to fire at full power (the result of which was a few forest fires) yet even thuogh it was specifically stated the weapons were on full power people argued that since people were on the ground the weapons were reduced yield, this was to get the weapon figures to mesh, thats what im going accept what im saying is reasonable and not specifically contradicted, if double digits is in line with other fire power calcs then carry on, if not then we have a reason why not.

I think this is a leap in logic fallacy.(If I'm not allowed to prove this incident is low power, we can prove no incident is low power) Allow me to explain why it isn't. We have a direct statement from a character that they are testing a new torpedo, with increased yield. There is no logical reason grounded in canon observations that they would not test at max power to see if this claim is verifiable.

[Ted C]

It simply seems to me than double digit KT dont fit in with what most other examples tell us (the Feds can level a civilised world in a very short space of time yet they only have very low yield kt weapons?)

Do you honestly think that 250 nuclear warheads (combined with some high-energy beam weapon fire, btw) wouldn't be capable of decisively disrupting a civilization? No, it wouldn't kill everything on the planet by a longshot, but you could destroy every major city in a matter of minutes, effectively "bombing them back to the stone age", since they would have no infrastructure left.

[Darth Wong]

Darkling, you may believe you're putting up a good fight, but trust me: if you would step back and look at this thread with an unjaundiced eye, it looks like nothing more than a parade of flimsy excuses on your part.

You look for the most ludicrously remote possibilities to cling to as proof that any given incident is invalid. You continually insinuate that "Pegasus" is being chosen because it's an unusually low-yield incident, However, other episodes ("Rise", "Genesis", and "Booby Trap") indicate similar or lower torpedo yield, and if you're going to claim that higher yields are supported in canon, you'll have to do better than desperately trying to explain away all of the low-yield incidents one at a time.

[Stravo]

This may sound stupid, but can anyone point to an episode to indicates a HIGH yield? I mean if there are no instances where the stated 64 Megaton figure seems correct I think that it is far more telling than trying to find low yield figures.

[Howedar]

TDIC indicates impressive power, if not a high level of DET in the conventional sense. We don't actually know if those were photorps though, IIRC.

[Darth Wong]

TDIC indicates impressive power, if not a high level of DET in the conventional sense. We don't actually know if those were photorps though, IIRC.

How so? The surface wasn't even lit up as brightly as a forest fire, and the thermal pulses from the fireballs didn't last long enough to be multi-megaton explosions, never mind multi-gigaton. The only thing the Trekkies can hang their hats on is the meaningless shockwaves, which are probably upper-atmospheric ionization or something similar.

[SPOOFE]

[hijack]

Daala once ordered all her weapons to fire at full power (the result of which was a few forest fires)

Not entirely true. What was said was, more or less, "the forest fires could be seen from space". It said nothing about the presence or absence of melted magma or glowing red-hot rock... in my opinion, the noting of forest fires was chosen for dramatic purposes, as Yavin IV is covered in jungle. The burning jungle is symbolic of the burning of the whole planet.

In other words... yes, gigaton-level explosions would create forest fires. Only a moron would claim otherwise.

[/hijack]

[Lord Poe]

So they hope their torpedoes act like theorised buried explosives (even though they are impacting and probably detonating so close to the surface that they might as well be surface explosions)...and then they have to hope the derelict pegasus destroys itself..and when that doesn't work they have to find which chunk the phase cloak was in.

Why would they be firing the torps at the SURFACE of the asteroid? There's a huge hole in said asteroid that is big enough to admit a Galaxy -class starship. Also, Data fretted that phaser fire while they were within the asteroid may cause a collapse, and the destruction of a fully-functional, undamaged Galaxy[/i] -class starship. So how could a damaded derelict survive a much more violent demise by torpedo fire?

Course, they could have used the Pegasus' prefix code to destroy the ship and not have to fire one shot, but I digress...

All this whilst fighting off the romulans.

What happened to that oft-spoken of claim about the E-D's alleged ability to fire multiple salvos of torpedos? The Romulans were in another section of the asteroid field, not right on top of them.

And Riker knows all of this, and plugs it into his personal asteroid destruction calculator in the space of a few seconds to decide it would take most of their torps?

That seems and awful stretch.

Why would it be a stretch for the XO of the E-D with seven years of experience under his belt to give an accurate estimate? This almost mirrors that old argument about how precise spice smuggler Han Solo's numbers are to General Dodonna's...

Unless it used up 100 torpedoes in 2-3 episodes, you are just vaguely employing imprecision as an excuse for wild speculation.

Yep, so that someone can reply that I'm vaguely employing imprecision and I can point out they do exactly the same thing when they try to use Pegasus without TM numbers to arrive at a single torp power.

Review the thread. Very accurate numbers have been derived from canon dialogue. BTW, how many torpedoes did the Enterprise fire from "Conundrum" - mid-season 5, where Worf states that they have 250 photon torpedoes, until mid-season 7 (Pegasus)? Also, how many starbase stops during that time. Anybody know? This can help Lord Edam's argument immensely.

[Robert Walper]

Course, they could have used the Pegasus' prefix code to destroy the ship and not have to fire one shot, but I digress...

Since the Pegasus was lost for years, half phased in rock, unpowered(ie: no computer availiable to accept this code), and the Enterprise crew didn't know where the ship was within the asteroid, such an idea seems rather silly.

[Robert Walper]

TDIC indicates impressive power, if not a high level of DET in the conventional sense. We don't actually know if those were photorps though, IIRC.

How so? The surface wasn't even lit up as brightly as a forest fire, and the thermal pulses from the fireballs didn't last long enough to be multi-megaton explosions, never mind multi-gigaton. The only thing the Trekkies can hang their hats on is the meaningless shockwaves, which are probably upper-atmospheric ionization or something similar.

I'm curious Mr Wong, why do you not apply your own speculation about phaser effects when analysing the DITC scene?

If phasers transform a target into invisible neutrinos, would this not apply to the mass effect upon a planetary surface as seen in DITC scene? Perhaps they did destroy 30% of the planet's crust, if we are to accept that the crust was also transformed into neutrinos(hence lack of enormous heat radiation and visible light). One would wonder why torpedoes were fired, but perhaps they can do the same thing if appropiately modified.

[Lord Poe]

Course, they could have used the Pegasus' prefix code to destroy the ship and not have to fire one shot, but I digress...

Since the Pegasus was lost for years,

They found it in this episode

half phased in rock, unpowered(ie: no computer availiable to accept this code),

They were able to provide (beam) power to the ship from the E-D. They could have easily exited the asteroid before the destruction, or used a comm probe to initiate the sequence once they were well away.

and the Enterprise crew didn't know where the ship was within the asteroid,

Yes they did. Watch the episode. Riker even boarded it with the admiral

such an idea seems rather silly.

Only to those who blind themselves from possibilities they don't want to see.

[Robert Walper]

Course, they could have used the Pegasus' prefix code to destroy the ship and not have to fire one shot, but I digress...

Since the Pegasus was lost for years,

They found it in this episode

Yes, after destroying it was longer a concern of theirs. When the Enterprise was considering destroying the asteroid, they knew the Pegasus was inside the asteroid, but not where inside the asteroid.

They were able to provide (beam) power to the ship from the E-D.

Yes, when they themselves were inside the asteroid, and knew exactly where it was, and were right on top of it, and the Romulan threat was no longer present at the time.

They could have easily exited the asteroid before the destruction, or used a comm probe to initiate the sequence once they were well away.

Why would they want to destroy the Pegasus when they wanted to recover it and they thought the Romulan threat was no longer present. I believe your recollection of the episode is inaccurate.

Yes they did. Watch the episode. Riker even boarded it with the admiral

When the Romulan threat was no longer present and they were doing a salvage operation. They were no longer considering destroying it.

Only to those who blind themselves from possibilities they don't want to see.

I'll excuse your insult with the understanding that your apparent recollection of the episode is inaccurate.

[Lord Poe]

Since the Pegasus was lost for years,

They found it in this episode

Yes, after destroying it was longer a concern of theirs. When the Enterprise was considering destroying the asteroid, they knew the Pegasus was inside the asteroid, but not where inside the asteroid.

Destroying it WAS still a concern. TheAdmiral was the one that changed the op. Why did you bother padding your previous post with nonsesnse like, "it was lost for years" if you didn't want a response in kind? It was the equivalent to: "Pegasus could fly in space.."

Yes, when they themselves were inside the asteroid, and knew exactly where it was, and were right on top of it, and the Romulan threat was no longer present at the time.

No longer present? Perhaps YOU should rewatch the episode. And how does your response invalidate mine?

Why would they want to destroy the Pegasus when they wanted to recover it and they thought the Romulan threat was no longer present. I believe your recollection of the episode is inaccurate.

Sorry, its your recollection that's inaccurate. The admiral wanted to retrieve the phase cloak, not the rest of the crew.

Yes they did. Watch the episode. Riker even boarded it with the admiral


When the Romulan threat was no longer present and they were doing a salvage operation. They were no longer considering destroying it.

Again, watch the episode. The Romulans never left.

I'll excuse your insult with the understanding that your apparent recollection of the episode is inaccurate.

Rewatch it yourself. You seem to be wrong on several points.

[Robert Walper]

Yes, after destroying it was longer a concern of theirs. When the Enterprise was considering destroying the asteroid, they knew the Pegasus was inside the asteroid, but not where inside the asteroid.

Destroying it WAS still a concern. TheAdmiral was the one that changed the op.

And Riker was the only one who recommended the Pegasus be destroyed. The Enterprise's orders were to salvage if possible, destroy only if necessary. Since they thought the Romulan threat had abated, their mission was salvage.

Why did you bother padding your previous post with nonsesnse like, "it was lost for years" if you didn't want a response in kind?

I added the fact it was lost for years as further indication that such a prefix code would no longer be necessary or kept around. If you consider a vessel destroyed, as Starfleet did, would it really be reasonable to keep a prefix code of that vessel handy on all Federation ships? They may have it back at headquarters, but even there it might need some digging to find it. since it is for a ship that was thought destroyed and not found for years(ie: lost...). That was my point.

Romulan threat no longer present...

No longer present? Perhaps YOU should rewatch the episode.

Okay, perhaps rewording is required on my part. The crew considered the Romulan threat far less immiment after they thought they fooled the Romulans. Therefore, if the Enterprise didn't destroy the Pegasus during a direct threat by the Romulans, why would attempt to destroy it when they thought such a threat was abated? Perhaps because their main objective was to salvage the ship, and only destroy it if necessary, as directly stated by their orders?

And how does your response invalidate mine?

My response was only to the claim that the Enterprise could have used the Pegasus's prefix code to destroy the ship. I merely wished to provide reasoning why such a feat was not feasible when it would have been useful.

Sorry, its your recollection that's inaccurate. The admiral wanted to retrieve the phase cloak, not the rest of the crew.

The crew's orders were to salvage if possible, destroy if necessary(to avoid Romulan capture). You seem to be taking Riker's suggestion to destroy the Pegasus(when destroying was the last option) as the entire crew's opinion as to how the situation should be handled.

When the Romulan threat was no longer present and they were doing a salvage operation. They were no longer considering destroying it.

Again, watch the episode. The Romulans never left.

Enterprise crew didn't know that. And neither did we until the Enterprise crew did when it was too late. You are attempting to imply the Enterprise crew had future knowledge to support your arguement they intended to destroy the ship instead of salvaging it, even though their orders were destroying only if necessary.

Rewatch it yourself. You seem to be wrong on several points.

I still believe you have inaccurately described the situation. I don't believe my recollection of the episode is in error. However, if we are unable to come to an agreement, I'm willing to drop it since my original response was merely a nitpick to a single statement of yours, and I do not wish to "hijack" the thread.