The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

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K. A. Pital
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Post by K. A. Pital »

More likely the CIS was not able to gain local naval superiority
How come the CIS doesn't have enough forces on the planet to defend against some hundreds of thousands of troopers? Ri-di-cu-lous. I'm speaking about the CIS forces on Saleucami. A 200:1 loss rate is only possible if someone is totally undeployed. Like, literally ASLEEP five month under siege.

That translates to a 46 DROID PER SECOND MURDER RATIO if the CIS had a 200:1 force against whatever the clones had. Imagine the clones threw their whole 3,000,000 to siege that city!! And imagine droids had 200:1 numbers.

This is not only outrageous, 46 droids murdered EVERY SINGLE SECOND FOR FIVE MONTH WHILST BEING SIEGED, CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT?!!
So indeed, the Republic must've had a substantially very large naval force to continuously supply their surface army since.
Five month!! If there's a force that outnumbers you 200:1, you'd run out of forces before you destroy/outstarve the sieged defenders.
Last edited by K. A. Pital on 2006-05-04 02:49pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by VT-16 »

In the comic, the big ships are kept at a distance due to a shield/ion cannon combo similar to Hoth.
You do see smaller vessels like CR90 corvettes heading down to the surface under poor conditions.
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Post by Fire Fly »

I don't fucking know. That seems to be the most logical reason to me, next to complete incompetence.
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Post by VT-16 »

The interesting aspect of Saleucami, was that it was a true clone war. The Republic's clone army versus a home-grown Morgukai clone army for the Separatists, fighting alongside the droid army.

They were apparently being pumped out at a fast pace, and could reinforce those already lost pretty easily. This reason, coupled with the Separatist forces having all their necessary supplies and assets safely behind a shield, made Saleucami a pain in the ass for the Republic forces besieging them.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Yes, but that doesn't render the necessity for a large troop force!! :lol:

The CIS forces on the planet - how small were they? Like what, a few hundred thousand? :roll: Is Saleucami an important world? Does it house a droid foundry like the Geo one?

If it does... A single conveyor would spawn 432 000 droids in a month. But given Geonosis spawns 80,000 a day... a factory of same scale would spawn 12 000 000 droids.

That's it folks. SPAWN.

In addition to what's already there.

So how do they take Saleucami without a large force is beyond me.

Did they just bomb it into surrender or what? :roll: If not, the numbers are true. A 46 per sec kill ratio is not viable. Unless of course the CIS force is not outnumbering the clones 200:1.
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Post by VT-16 »

Yes, but that doesn't render the necessity for a large troop force!!
Quite the opposite, in fact! :lol:

Edit: Whoops, you weren't replying to me, were you? :oops:
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Oh, and if the CIS had just a 3,000,000 force there in that city...

And they were battling for 5 months, with a total decimation of the CIS force...

This equals to a 1-per-5 seconds kill ratio.

Should I explain how much larger a force you need to get such a kill ratio? ;)

Essentially Saleucami should be something like Stalingrad. It had a 20 sec per overall kill ratio. The battle raged for a month.

There was an 850 000 loss on one side and a 750000 loss on the other side.

And that a _very_ major victory in a World freaking War, where cities with over a million population were taken constantly in the course of the War.

So how the clones are going to get a 200:1 kill ratio is something BEYOND me.
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Post by Mange »

This is getting ridiculous. Now dp4m insists that the cartoons should be left out of the discussion because of some entry in the Databank:

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 566376/p39
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Post by Fire Fly »

Mange the Swede wrote:This is getting ridiculous. Now dp4m insists that the cartoons should be left out of the discussion because of some entry in the Databank:

+http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b ... 566376/p39
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Post by VT-16 »

Now dp4m insists that the cartoons should be left out of the discussion:
Sorry, he doesn't decide what sources are valid or not. Tough luck.

Heh, the area where the clone armies are fighting in the comic, isn't the same as the environment we see Stass Allie fly through in the movie (which was also littered with corpses, tanks, assault guns etc.)
Much larger engagement than the comics alone portrayed, and they had a
constantly replenished Separatist army! 8)

What I wrote in the GAR article on wookiepedia below, show the ridiculous position of counting out the cartoon (especially when they used some of it for evidence of their own position):
The account of the Battle of Muunilinst in the New Essential Chronology says that the Republic landing involved "hundreds of assault ships, each one groaning from the weight of troopers and war machines"; the figure of 3.2 million is arrived at if this phrase is extrapolated to mean around two hundred Acclamator-class assault ships, each carrying its full capacity of 16,000 clones. While the term "assault ships" could indicate another, smaller type of vessel, no such ships have ever been referred to in Clone Wars literature, and there is no reason to assume the assault ships were not Acclamators. No distinction between assault ships were made in the chapter.

The statement that only a few dozen ships were seen on-screen in the Star Wars: Clone Wars cartoon bears little meaning, as many battles in SW are often fleshed out in different sources. The same series also showed hundreds of Providence-class carrier/destroyers in the Second Battle of Coruscant, yet some people treat this as unreliable.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

VT-16

Oh. So they say it's TOO MUCH even as it shows like, 37 Acclamators? Yeah, should've expected them to refute the BOC shots from the cartoon with "it's not reliable" :lol:

But wait, didn't one of the FX members state that there were 9,000 ships visible in one of ROTS shots? I need to find that quote, if that's really so...
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Post by Mange »

Stas Bush wrote: But wait, didn't one of the FX members state that there were 9,000 ships visible in one of ROTS shots? I need to find that quote, if that's really so...
It was 5,000 capital ships plus "hundreds" of fighters. It was mentioned in one of the Post Notes (I'm no longer a Hyperspace member and I don't remember which one it was).
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Post by K. A. Pital »

It was 5,000 capital ships plus "hundreds" of fighters.
Good, good... :roll:
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Post by VT-16 »

Oh. So they say it's TOO MUCH even as it shows like, 37 Acclamators? Yeah, should've expected them to refute the BOC shots from the cartoon with "it's not reliable"
The CW cartoons are "true" when they show small things (number of Acclamators seen), and "false" when they show big things (number of Venators and Providences seen). Get it? :P

Man, those arguments keep getting more and more sad. :lol:
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Post by IceHawk-181 »

If I had a $1 for every time someone tries to use a Logical Fallacy in this argument I could purchase LFL by now.....

I called him on it, and so have two others.

Notice how they kinda stopped contending the arguments after they were presented with direct quotes and pictures.

Kinda hard to fight Canon, unless of course its not accurate :shock:
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Post by Mange »

IceHawk-181 wrote:If I had a $1 for every time someone tries to use a Logical Fallacy in this argument I could purchase LFL by now.....

I called him on it, and so have two others.

Notice how they kinda stopped contending the arguments after they were presented with direct quotes and pictures.

Kinda hard to fight Canon, unless of course its not accurate :shock:
If things are going to continue this way, I'll become a movie purist (with very few examples, the only material that really reflects the movies are the DK-works).
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Post by IceHawk-181 »

Good luck with that...

...you do know that the visuals aren't Canon right?


So says the Ewok....




Dp4m does not apparently understand how to create a coherent argument using logic.
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Post by Mange »

IceHawk-181 wrote:Good luck with that...

...you do know that the visuals aren't Canon right?


So says the Ewok....
Oh yes, I forgot! :lol:

IceHawk-181 wrote:Dp4m does not apparently understand how to create a coherent argument using logic.

He's hopeless. I mean, something that so clearly deviates from what we're being shown in the movies and four years of Clone Wars literature (as well as the earlier EU) as well as the scale of the GFFA... It baffles me.
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Post by IceHawk-181 »

The claim now is that because details of Windu’s battle on Dantooine were based on a recollection from the farm kid the entirety of the Clone Wars Cartoons has been ret-conned out of existence.

Utterly absurd, and a textbook Logical Fallacy…

They, well at least he, have completely run out of arguments.
Now begins the ad nauseum Moderator baiting and trolling, where we just get the same damn things repeated over again a dozen times without any real debate.

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Post by Master of Ossus »

IceHawk-181 wrote:Dp4m does not apparently understand how to create a coherent argument using logic.
Precisely. The fandowhorians have clearly exhausted all forms of evidence which support their figure and are now resorting to entirely dismissing all possible evidence. That hardly comes as a surprise, since all forms of evidence except for Karen Traviss' say so implicitly or explicitly reject her figure.
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Post by Fire Fly »

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Post by VT-16 »

...you do know that the visuals aren't Canon right?


So says the Ewok....
Oh yes, we mustn't forget, the movies are as nothing compared to the awesome might of the frozen-in-time written laws of WEG RPG books!! :lol:
The claim now is that because details of Windu’s battle on Dantooine were based on a recollection from the farm kid the entirety of the Clone Wars Cartoons has been ret-conned out of existence.
Even though they were not witnessed by this kid like that battle was and is not supported by any official statements? Amazing! :P
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Post by Master of Ossus »

VT-16 wrote:
...you do know that the visuals aren't Canon right?


So says the Ewok....
Oh yes, we mustn't forget, the movies are as nothing compared to the awesome might of the frozen-in-time written laws of WEG RPG books!! :lol:
I had a great line about that. This guy accused me of getting all of my information about numerical superiority from playing RTS and FPS games on my computer. Then, later in the same post he started writing about how his appreciation for the power of ISD's was founded on his purchases of WEG sourcebooks. So of course I had to reply with, "Thank you! I had been basing all of my information on Quake III and Warcraft II games, but now I realize that the way to evaluate combat abilities in the SW universe is by buying RPG sourcebooks."
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You know, I been doing some research of my own and this just popped up.
How Poisonmongers Work

The antifluoridationists' ("antis") basic technique is the big lie. Made infamous by Hitler, it is simple to use, yet surprisingly effective. It consists of claiming that fluoridation causes cancer, heart and kidney disease, and other serious ailments that people fear. The fact that there is no supporting evidence for such claims does not matter. The trick is to keep repeating them -- because if something is said often enough, people tend to think there must be some truth to it.

A variation of the big lie is the laundry list. List enough "evils," and even if proponents can reply to some of them, they will never be able to cover the entire list. This technique is most effective in debates, letters to the editor, and television news reports. Another variation is the simple statement that fluoridation doesn't work. Although recent studies show less difference than there used to be in decay rates between fluoridated and nonfluoridated communities, the benefit is still substantial. In fact, the Public Health Service estimates that every dollar spent for community fluoridation saves about fifty dollars in dental bills.

A key factor in any anti campaign is the use of printed matter. Because of this, antis are very eager to have their views printed. Scientific journals will rarely publish them, but most local newspapers are willing to express minority viewpoints regardless of whether facts support them. A few editors even welcome the controversy the antis generate -- expecting that it will increase readership.

The aim of anti "documents" is to create the illusion of scientific controversy. Often they quote statements that are out of date or out of context. Quotes from obscure or hard-to-locate journals are often used. Another favored tactic is to misquote a profluoridation scientist, knowing that even if the scientist protests, the reply will not reach all those who read the original misquote.

Half-truths are commonly used. For example, saying that fluoride is a rat poison ignores the fact that poison is a matter of dose. Large amounts of many substances -- even pure water -- can poison people. But the trace amount of fluoride contained in fluoridated water will not harm anyone.

"Experts" are commonly quoted. It is possible to find someone with scientific credentials who is against just about anything. Most "experts" who speak out against fluoridation, however, are not experts on the subject. There are, of course, a few dentists and physicians who oppose fluoridation. Some of them object to fluoridation as a form of government intrusion, even though they know it is safe and effective.

Innuendo is a technique that has broad appeal because it can be used in a seemingly unemotional pitch. Some antis admit that fluoridation has been found safe "so far," but claim that its long-range effects have "not yet" been fully explored. The waiting game is a related gambit in which antis suggest that waiting a bit longer will help to resolve "doubt" about fluoridation's safety. No doubt, some antis will continue to use this argument for a few hundred more years.

A few antis have offered a "reward" for proving that fluoridation is safe. During the 1970s, a $100,000 offer required the pros to post a bond "to cover any costs which the offerers of the reward might incur if the proof is deemed invalid." The offer did not state who would judge the evidence, but it was safe to assume that the antis themselves would have appointed the judges. If a suit had been filed to collect the reward, the court might have ruled that the offer was a gambling bet that should not be enforced by a court. Such a suit would have required at least $25,000 for the bond and legal fees. Even if it had been won, however, there was no assurance that the money would have been recovered from the individuals who sponsored the reward. Most of them were elderly and scattered widely throughout the United States and Canada. A woman who runs an antifluoridation Web site has issued two versions of a $100,000 reward. Initially, she promised the money for directing her to "any published scientific articles demonstrating the safety of our current fluoride intake or any studies which indicate that researchers used methods capable of detecting cases of chronic fluoride poisoning -- but failed to find them -- in any fluoridated U.S. cities in the past." The current version is for "any studies which indicate that researchers used methods capable of detecting cases of chronic fluoride poisoning in any U.S. city in the past -- but failed to find them." The offer does not state how any response would be judged or who would make the judgment. The Web site has carried a plea for help in defraying the $19.95 per month it cost to maintain it.

Since the scientific community is so solidly in favor of fluoridation, antis try to discredit it entirely by use of the conspiracy gambit. The beauty of the conspiracy charge is that it can be leveled at anyone and there is absolutely no way to disprove it. After all, how does one prove that something is not taking place secretly? Favorite "conspirators" are the U.S. Public Health Service, the American Dental Association, the American Medical Association, and the aluminum industry. Apparently, in the minds of the antis, these groups could all be working together to "poison" the American people! Years ago, conspiracy claims would work primarily with the very paranoid. But modern-day government scandals may make them seem realistic to a wider audience.

The "slippery slope" claim is a related gambit. "This is only the beginning!" the antis wail. "First they will add fluoride, then vitamin pills, and the next thing you know it will be birth control pills!" Who "they" are need not be specified.

Scare words will add zip to any anti campaign. Not only the more obvious ones like "cancer" and "heart disease," but also more specialized terms like "mongoloid births" and "sickle-cell anemia." Ecology words are also useful. Calling fluoride a "chemical" (rather than a nutrient) can strike fear in the minds of many Americans who fear we are already too "chemicalized." The fact that water itself is a chemical and the fact that responsible use of chemicals is extremely helpful to our society will not reassure everyone. Fluoride is also called "artificial" and "a pollutant," which is "against nature." Faced with the fact that fluoridation merely copies a natural phenomenon, the antis reply that "natural" fluoride differs from "artificial" fluoride -- a "fact" as yet undiscovered by scientists.

Suggesting alternatives is a common tactic. Here the antis propose that the community distribute free fluoride tablets to parents who wish to give them to their children. The suggested program sounds "democratic," but it will not be effective from a public health standpoint. Most parents are not motivated to administer the 4,000+ doses needed from birth through age twelve. The plea for alternatives is often made by a "neutral" individual who sounds like he will support an alternative program if water fluoridation is defeated. Don't bet on it. Such advocacy is almost always a propaganda ploy.

Once fluoridation has begun in a community, antis can resort to the "cause-of-all-evil" gambit -- blaming fluoridation for everything that occurred after it started. An example of this tactic, one that backfired on opponents, took place in Cleveland on June 1, 1956 -- when fluorides were to be added to the city's water supply. That day, the phone calls began: "My goldfish have died." "My African violets are wilting." "I can't make a decent cup of coffee." "My dog is constipated." Although the basis of such complaints is emotional rather than physical, this time fluoridation's innocence was beyond question. Last-minute problems had delayed its start until July!
You know, so far, apart from the cause of all evil, scarce tactics(although the death threats made by Fandolarians and Karen might count) and reward, every single tactic listed here has been used by the pro-3 million crowd.

LOL!

Should we start our own derragotary term for them now? Talifans vs anti-ists.
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Post by Mange »

IceHawk-181 wrote:The claim now is that because details of Windu’s battle on Dantooine were based on a recollection from the farm kid the entirety of the Clone Wars Cartoons has been ret-conned out of existence.

Utterly absurd, and a textbook Logical Fallacy…

They, well at least he, have completely run out of arguments.
Now begins the ad nauseum Moderator baiting and trolling, where we just get the same damn things repeated over again a dozen times without any real debate.

How lovely is TF.N……
I'm glad that people are calling on that (and the other BS) in that thread.
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