Greedo V's Federation

[RedImperator]

The entire Special Editions? Isn't that a blatant contradiction of canon?

Since it's already a contradiction of canon policy to throw out the Greedo shooting first scene, I see no reason not to shitcan the rest of the SEs with it.

But, officially, the SE scene is the correct one. I mean, there are other parts of canon most people don't like, but as long as they don't contradict any other part of the same or higher level of canon, there isn't really any reason to dispense with them. I think the original version of the scene is better too, but that doesn't invalidate it. Does Jar Jar Bink's existance purge TPM from the continuity?

I dispense with it because it's a bullshit retcon, butchery of a classic character, the motivation for the whole thing was juvenile, and it looks like shit. Yes, in a vs. debate you might have to go with the SE, depending on Lucasfilm policy (not that it really matters; the fact that we're having Greedo debates shows how close to the bottom of the barrel SW vs. ST has gotten), but outside of them, Han shot first, he always did shoot first, and he always will shoot first.

[brianeyci]

Can someone explain why it's such a big deal for SW fans that Han shot first?

Han is a "good guy" so he wouldn't shoot a man first before the other guy showed intent to kill him... wasn't that the point of Lucas' change?

Is it because it makes Han less of a badass? I don't get it. Let's say it looked good. Would SW fans accept it? If they don't accept the look, why not the intent. Am I missing something about Han.

Brian

[Covenant]

It's an inferior scene the way it was made to be. First of all, it looked bad. And even if it looked better, it wouldn't be nearly as cool, since that was a really great moment of the movie. A quick snappy line followed up by a gunshot to the gut, and Greedo falls over dead. Bam! Plus then he walks up like nothing's happened and says sorry for the mess. It establishes Han's character as a bad guy which is a theme important to the movie. He's a money-grubbing smuggler who has troubles with gangsters, has a crappy spaceship, and a gross companion. He's a symbol of the pragmatic cynacism of the real world to Luke, and therefore to the audience, as contrasted with Obi-Wan's idealism, peace and strength, which are symbols of the age that was. This shows us that things have gotten worse. The "more civilized time" comment is to reinforce that. The faithless world of the present versus the mystical world of the past.

Han, afterall, is portrayed several times as being a greedy, self-serving asshole on purpose. It all leads up to the scene where Luke's like "So you're leaving huh? Got your reward and going?" And Han is like "That's what a smuggler does." And Luke said "Yeah, well, I thought you were different. I guess I was wrong." And that leads into the heroic, awesome "You're all clear kid!" moment at the end.

Without "HAN SHOT FIRST!" our first, most important glimpse into Han's original nature is taken away. We want him to shoot first because we want him to be worse than Greedo. We want him to be more deceitful, more untrustworthy. The blaster-under-the-table shows us Han isn't to be trusted. And when he becomes ashamed of himself and changes, that's a great moment. And that's why Han needs to shoot first.

That and the torso-pull looks like ass.

[RedImperator]

Can someone explain why it's such a big deal for SW fans that Han shot first?

Han is a "good guy" so he wouldn't shoot a man first before the other guy showed intent to kill him... wasn't that the point of Lucas' change?

Is it because it makes Han less of a badass? I don't get it. Let's say it looked good. Would SW fans accept it? If they don't accept the look, why not the intent. Am I missing something about Han.

Brian

Oh god, it's the "It makes Han less of a badass?" brainbug again. No, that's not the problem. The problem is it makes Han less of a scoundrel. It destroys his character arc. He's supposed to start off as someone only slightly less bad then the bad guys (the only reason you don't feel bad for Greedo is because he's obviously a complete piece of shit). It makes Han dangerous. More importantly, it makes you believe he's the kind of guy who could have taken his money and walked out on the Rebels.

Then comes the SE version. Now, Han is a decent and honorable guy who won't shoot a bounty hunter after his own head unless he shoots first. How noble. How can you possibly believe this guy will let Luke die alone in the Death Star trench?

Of course, since Lucas didn't edit the rest of Han's scenes, he's still written as a scoundrel for the rest of the movie. So instead of being noble and honorable, he's just a stupid asshole who's only alive because Greedo is too useless to hit a man sized target three feet away.

It's an ill-concieved retcon, part of the juvenialization of Star Wars, because, it's a kid's movie, and we can't have any of the good guys ever doing anything morally ambiguous in a kid's movie am I rite? Lucas was never a great writer, but he used to be a great storyteller, and it's inconcievable that any great (or good, or remotely competent) storyteller would try to populate his stories with morally perfect characters (Roddenberry did this same stupid bullshit in TNG, though for different reasons), because even kids know that people aren't perfectly good or perfectly evil. Fuck, even Big Bird has moral lapses. And then to top it off, they try to clean up Han's act in the cantina, but not anywhere else, so he comes off as a whining coward instead of either the scoundrel he was or the white knight Lucas now wants him to be.

[Wyrm]

^ In other words, Lucus turned Han into a Democrat!

In addition to the "white knight" bullshit, the SE makes Han more static than in the original. Static characters are harder to make interesting as main protagonists because they don't change. Although there is something to be said for plot fixtures like the Wise Old Hermit (Obi-Wan), for Han being static is inappropriate. We saw him grow from the total scoundrel at the beginning, who would blow away an agressor without a second thought, to a not-so-total scoundrel at the end, with the triumphant "You're all clear, kid!" He rises from the depths of scoundreldom to the shores (with only a slight dip along the way).

Only in the SE, he doesn't. He comes brushed of the scum right out of the box. He doesn't have to climb as far to get out of scoundreldom as the original. This cheapens his character, and again plays into the juvenialization of the movie: the protagonists have to be squeaky-clean from the beginning.

[Elfdart]

In the old version, Han says "Yes, I'll bet you have." then shoots Greedo.

The only difference in the newer version is that Greedo gets off a shot a split second before Han shoots him.

The only real differences are (a) the newer shot looks bad and (b) Greedo goes from being an inept bounty hunter to being an INCREDIBLY inept bounty hunter. How does this change Han's character?

[Darth Wong]

In the old version, Han says "Yes, I'll bet you have." then shoots Greedo.

The only difference in the newer version is that Greedo gets off a shot a split second before Han shoots him.

The only real differences are (a) the newer shot looks bad and (b) Greedo goes from being an inept bounty hunter to being an INCREDIBLY inept bounty hunter. How does this change Han's character?

Well, it does make him a Jedi, what with his ability to make impossible moves with his torso and react to Greedo's shot faster than human reaction time permits. Being a Jedi is a pretty big change to Solo's character

[Elfdart]

It's kind of funny, but last week I saw The Bravados, an old western. It had a scene very similar to the one with Han and Greedo. Gregory Peck had Stephen Boyd cornered in a cantina (Peck is after the men who raped and killed his wife). Peck is maybe 2 feet away from Boyd. Boyd reaches for his gun under the table, fires, and Peck dodges the shot, shooting Boyd in the process. The difference is, to make Gregory Peck do the impossible, they cut a few frames out, so Peck turns sideways faster than the speed of light. Nowadays they use CGI.

[brianeyci]

It's kind of funny, but last week I saw The Bravados, an old western. It had a scene very similar to the one with Han and Greedo. Gregory Peck had Stephen Boyd cornered in a cantina (Peck is after the men who raped and killed his wife). Peck is maybe 2 feet away from Boyd. Boyd reaches for his gun under the table, fires, and Peck dodges the shot, shooting Boyd in the process. The difference is, to make Gregory Peck do the impossible, they cut a few frames out, so Peck turns sideways faster than the speed of light. Nowadays they use CGI.

Deja vu?

For those who want to bitch about Greedo shooting first, I recommend the classic western The Bravados, where Stephen Boyd shoots at Gregory Peck in a cantina at a range of @18 inches -and misses! Gregory Peck also performs an impossible torso move to dodge. The difference is, back in the day they cut out frames of film and nowadays they use CGI.

I guess you had a busy week you forgot you'd already mentioned it .

Brian

[Elfdart]

Every so often I get a movie burned into my brain. D'OH!

[Stark]

It's a worthless example anyway. The point isn't how they filmed it, but that it was changed decades later in an inept, hopelessly unrealistic way.

[Darth Wong]

It's a worthless example anyway. The point isn't how they filmed it, but that it was changed decades later in an inept, hopelessly unrealistic way.

Another important point is that George Lucas is LYING about it. George Lucas told everyone that all the changes he made in the SE were meant to correct it to his "original vision". But if he wanted to make Greedo shoot first in the original film, he could have easily done so. There was no technical limitation preventing it. So when he claimed he was correcting the films to what he originally wanted, that may be true of the Battle of Yavin, but there's no way it's true for Greedo.

[Elfdart]

Unless he did a Spielberg and pussied out over complaints after the first run.

[Darth Servo]

It's a worthless example anyway. The point isn't how they filmed it, but that it was changed decades later in an inept, hopelessly unrealistic way.

Another important point is that George Lucas is LYING about it. George Lucas told everyone that all the changes he made in the SE were meant to correct it to his "original vision". But if he wanted to make Greedo shoot first in the original film, he could have easily done so. There was no technical limitation preventing it. So when he claimed he was correcting the films to what he originally wanted, that may be true of the Battle of Yavin, but there's no way it's true for Greedo.

Did Lucas explicitly say that about Greedo shooting first? He may have just been making a generalized statement about the SE, not carefully taking every change made into consideration. Of course I could be completely wrong about that too.

[chitoryu12]

The point is that not only has Han suddenly become a "smuggler with a heart of gold" type of guy, but the movement is impossible for him. If Luke was sitting in that chair, it would be believable, not if it was some random scoundrel trying to sneak out of a cantina booth to pay a gangster before an inept, trigger-happy reptile incinerated his brain.

[Stark]

Unless he did a Spielberg and pussied out over complaints after the first run.

Having never seen it, just thinking about the 'new' ET makes my head hurt. Walkie-talkies?

[Srynerson]

Did Lucas explicitly say that about Greedo shooting first? He may have just been making a generalized statement about the SE, not carefully taking every change made into consideration.

I don't recall GL every explicitly addressing the Han vs. Greedo issue, but you have to remember that a substantial part of what GL says in any discussion of his vision of SW is only "true from a certain point of view." (And I say that as someone who routinely defends the man!)

[General Deathdealer]

The only one that would have a change would be 7 of 9. As soon as she flashed her tits at Greedo, he would be mesmerized long enough for her to take him out.

[harbringer]

Unless he likes janeway better

both sides are considered armed with standard weapons (apart from Greedo's pistol that I would say is non standard) and or equipment (no artificial sensors)

So no one thinks Worf or Riker stand a chance?? what about Picard?.

And who REALLY wants to see 7 of 9 getting it on with Greedo????????

[RedImperator]

Unless he did a Spielberg and pussied out over complaints after the first run.

Having never seen it, just thinking about the 'new' ET makes my head hurt. Walkie-talkies?

I don't like that change, either, but the difference is, when ET was re-released, the new version was on one side of the disc and the original was on the other. The thing that pissed purists off about the SW Special Editons was that Lucas not only de-canonized the originals, he was, for the longest time, insisting they'd never be re-released. The ET walkie-talkie thing isn't nearly as big a slap in the face because Spielberg never stood up and said "fuck you" to the fans the way Lucas did.

[Cao Cao]

Of course now both the original and the SE versions are now apparently non-canon, superceeded by the DVD release where Greedo somehow manages to aim away from Han and miss him while Han fires at the same time.