How successful was Leia Organa as NR-Chief of State?

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-05-05 04:13am

One thing that has bothered me for some time is how successful was Leia really as head of the NR?

Especially considering how quickly everything broke apart in the NJO once she was out of the picture. If the empire had been defeated or made peace with after DarkEmpire (so no outside enemy to keep the NR together?).

I'm a little tired of people screaming "it was all Borsks fault, with Leia in charge it would have never happened".

Chris OFarrell · Post by **Chris OFarrell** » 2006-05-05 05:39am

Depends which EU books you use really.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-05-05 05:58am

Well, in CrystalStar she run away to search for her children, in NewRebellion she got a number of fits because of former imperials being democratically elected and in the BFC she was a more or less a complete moron and already in HoT the NR was going to break apart (with a little help from the Imps).

Not a very good record, if you ask me.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2006-05-05 06:22am

IMO, Leia wasnt much more than a puppethead in the NR. She had remakable little power and say.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2006-05-05 07:03am

Xon wrote:IMO, Leia wasnt much more than a puppethead in the NR. She had remakable little power and say.

Which had to be the lamest copout the EU did to her character. Though she was pretty good in Zahn's trilogy.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-05-05 10:57am

Puppethead? Puppethead for whom? And where in the EU is that mentioned?

Daltonator · Post by **Daltonator** » 2006-05-05 12:18pm

FTeik wrote:Well, in CrystalStar she run away to search for her children, in NewRebellion she got a number of fits because of former imperials being democratically elected and in the BFC she was a more or less a complete moron and already in HoT the NR was going to break apart (with a little help from the Imps).

Not a very good record, if you ask me.

Leia wasn't the head of the NR during the "Hand of Thrawn" books; that was Ponc Gavrisom. And in the Thrawn Trilogy, Mon Mothma was still in charge.

In fact, the entirety of her tenure, IIRC, more or less takes place across a span of shitty books, where she is written as caring more about her own life and needs rather than those of the Republic she claims to lead.

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2006-05-05 01:43pm

FTeik wrote:Puppethead? Puppethead for whom? And where in the EU is that mentioned?

Everyone else.

BTW, how the fuck did something like Borsks get into power?

Stofsk wrote:
Xon wrote:IMO, Leia wasnt much more than a puppethead in the NR. She had remakable little power and say.
Which had to be the lamest copout the EU did to her character. Though she was pretty good in Zahn's trilogy.

Leia was one of the major founding people in the NR, with major political connections with everyone who actually mattered. The military, Jedi (aka Luke), other political figures, and I've seen education ministers

with more say in thier government than her.

Sure, she was good in Zahn's trilogy, but Zahn made all the characters in his trilogy good and/or believable.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2006-05-05 01:52pm

Xon wrote:BTW, how the fuck did something like Borsks get into power?

Because he commanded a great deal of support in the NR Senate despite his repeated failings.

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-05-05 02:43pm

Personally I think she was a very poor leader. How would we react if say Tony Blair suddenly decided to disappear for a few months for no apparent reason? Then again, the entire NR is flawed, so it may not be entirely her fault.

In the NJO the NR politicians throw millions, perhaps billions of lives away to gain one up on their political opponents, and they're supposed to be 'the good guys'. I'm sure a similar disregard for the people and a heavy blanket of propaganda could be found in governments such as the Third Reich, and yet the NR is supposed to be 'the good guys' becuase they are 'democratic'.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-05-05 03:33pm

In the NJO the NR politicians throw millions, perhaps billions of lives away to gain one up on their political opponents, and they're supposed to be 'the good guys'. I'm sure a similar disregard for the people and a heavy blanket of propaganda could be found in governments such as the Third Reich, and yet the NR is supposed to be 'the good guys' becuase they are 'democratic'.

But the NR really isn't protrayed as being "good" in the NJO. It's shown to be slow, incompetant, uncaring, corrupt, and generally stupid, completely ignoring the advice of the Jedi Order and the military leaders who actually know what they're doing. Indeed, Borsk is actually portrayed as being a major antagonist up until his death, as is his successor, that Quarren guy.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-05-05 05:02pm

Personally, I feel that she the best she could under the circumstances. Her actions in Crystal Star were poor, but she did handle the incident quickly and was back on the job in short order. She handled the Black Fleet Crisis as well as anyone could and managed to turn the situation around and led the NR to victory. There were events beyond her control (New Rebellion and the Death Seed situation) that she managed to turn around.

She was good, but not great due to one or two failures and bad time. But she came through and handled herself well. I would put her on the level of Clinton or Mckinely.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-05-05 05:41pm

In short she sucked. A good leader can't be flitting all over the place chasing after her kids who seem to be kidnapped or in danger every other fecking chapter. She was so incompetant that by the time of the Thrawn Duology she was forced on a leave of absence so that Callipop(sp?) dude could fix her mess. In her time she showed blatant prejudice and a comtempt for democracy by refusing to support former Imperial's in the Senate and by the end of her reign the NR was just about ready to plunge into a civil war. If it wasn't for her brother and Han bailing her ass out every time she'd have been fucked, and not in the good way.

Tiriol · Post by **Tiriol** » 2006-05-05 05:51pm

Lord Pounder wrote:In short she sucked. A good leader can't be flitting all over the place chasing after her kids who seem to be kidnapped or in danger every other fecking chapter. She was so incompetant that by the time of the Thrawn Duology she was forced on a leave of absence so that Callipop(sp?) dude could fix her mess. In her time she showed blatant prejudice and a comtempt for democracy by refusing to support former Imperial's in the Senate and by the end of her reign the NR was just about ready to plunge into a civil war. If it wasn't for her brother and Han bailing her ass out every time she'd have been fucked, and not in the good way.

I think I've asked this some time before, but here it goes anyway...

How did Leia define former Imperials? As those who worked in Imperial bureaucracy and military before the New Republic decisively won the Empire? Or EVERYONE who was an Imperial citizen and didn't rebel?

Either way, she's pretty damn prejudiced, but at least the first view could be partially explained (but still, how many bureaucrats and military officers could be maniacal evil lunatics bent on the enslavement of all like Tarkin, Hrethir etc.?), but it still extremely stupid.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-05-05 06:03pm

As it was at the time former Stormtroopers and Imperial Govenors and their Beaureacracy(sp?) where barred from serving as senators in the NR. When this was over turned and several former Govenors where democratically elected she threw a real hissy fit and screamed "Remember Alderan" untill she was blue in the face.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-05-05 06:59pm

Lord Pounder wrote:As it was at the time former Stormtroopers and Imperial Govenors and their Beaureacracy(sp?) where barred from serving as senators in the NR. When this was over turned and several former Govenors where democratically elected she threw a real hissy fit and screamed "Remember Alderan" untill she was blue in the face.

The US had the same problem at the end of WWII. Whether or not to let former nazis get back into government if they were not directly involved in war crimes or crimes against humanity.

Would you let a former card-carrying nazi into the government if they were unrepentant.

And as I recall, she was right to oppose their being allowed to hold office. They purposely held shit up in the Senate just to give Leia headaches and did their best to mess up the NR.

Publius · Post by **Publius** » 2006-05-05 07:31pm

Tiriol wrote:How did Leia define former Imperials? As those who worked in Imperial bureaucracy and military before the New Republic decisively won the Empire? Or EVERYONE who was an Imperial citizen and didn't rebel?

Either way, she's pretty damn prejudiced, but at least the first view could be partially explained (but still, how many bureaucrats and military officers could be maniacal evil lunatics bent on the enslavement of all like Tarkin, Hrethir etc.?), but it still extremely stupid.

According to The New Rebellion:

Several planets had petitioned the Senate to allow former Imperials to serve as political representatives. The argument was that some of the best politicians had kept their peoples alive by working with the Empire, as minor functionaries. THey were petty bureaucrats who saved dozens of Rebel lives by overlooking strange troop movements, or unusual faces in the crowds. Leia had opposed the petitions from the beginning, but the arguments in CHamber had been fierce. M'yet Luure, the powerful senator from Exodeen, had finally reminded her that even she had once served the Empire in her role as Imperial senator. She had retoreted that she was serving the Rebellion even then. M'yet had smiled, revealing six rows of uneven teeth. These people were serving the Rebellion too, he had said, in their own way.

Leia had disputed that claim. They had served the Empire and not fought against it, had merely looked the other way. But M'yet's argument was powerful, and because of it, the Senate had approved the petition. LEia had modified the election law with the help of her backers -- no former stormtrooper could hold office, no Imperial of rank, no former Imperial governor -- in short, no Imperial with access to power in the EMpire could serve the New Republic. But she still felt this law was wrong.

Nor did she have handle the parliamentary defeat with good grace; she immediately suspected foul play when Meido was elected Senator for Adin, a former Imperial stronghold, and "was quietly having some of her people investigate him." The bombing of the Senate Assembly Chamber had reduced her voting block "which had been the majority" to a minority, and she badly lost a vote on an independent investigation into the bombing; her response was to threaten the opposition for violation of the Senate bylaws prohibiting "undue partisanship" (the penalty for this was that the offender "will be expelled from the room and his vote will not be counted").

She blamed the former Palpatinists for the loss in solidarity among the Senators ("Didn't these so-called leaders understand the effects of their actions? Didn't they know that this kind of partisanship would divide the Republic?"), and even as she was thus encouraging this 'us vs. them' mentality her ally, Senator Gno, another former Imperial Senator, bemoaned, "This is how the Empire took over the last time. Small disagreements became major. Major disagreemtens were ignored, until the government was so factionalized it didn't work at all."

Fifteen percent of the Senators killed were replaced by policians "with the same political cast." The remaining 85% of the "hundred other planets whose senators had died" elected former Imperials, with the result that "former Imperials held a simple majority in the Senate," "enough to defeat any proposal that required a voice vote, but not enough to win in each instance." Her immediate response was a lament that "the Senate had become a political body now, not a place of colleagues."

That is to say, the Princess Leia had adopted a profoundly undemocratic attitude toward the former Imperials, despite the fact that a simple majority of worlds represented in the Senate had chosen former Imperials to represent them; she opposed them on ideological grounds and then charged them with partisanship and destroying the ideological solidarity of the Senate as dominated by the ageing revolutionary party. It is worth noting that the revolutionary party was itself led by former Imperials -- the Princess Leia, Garm Bel Iblis, Gno, Crix Madine, and numerous others. She supported democracy insofar as the electoral results conformed to her politics; when the electorate declined to maintain the Senate as an old boys' club, she cried foul and attempted to bar opposition politicians from participating in the political process.

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-05-06 01:57am

Noble Ire wrote:
In the NJO the NR politicians throw millions, perhaps billions of lives away to gain one up on their political opponents, and they're supposed to be 'the good guys'. I'm sure a similar disregard for the people and a heavy blanket of propaganda could be found in governments such as the Third Reich, and yet the NR is supposed to be 'the good guys' becuase they are 'democratic'.
But the NR really isn't protrayed as being "good" in the NJO. It's shown to be slow, incompetant, uncaring, corrupt, and generally stupid, completely ignoring the advice of the Jedi Order and the military leaders who actually know what they're doing. Indeed, Borsk is actually portrayed as being a major antagonist up until his death, as is his successor, that Quarren guy.

Cal Omas

I always liked Leia as Chief of State and hated Borsk. I like Cal but id rather Luke be chief of state I mean a Jedi in the Whit..... i mean yeah i have no punchline but i dont know if Luke was Chief of State during the opening days of the NJO it would turn out a hell of a lot different. 1) The Galaxy gets the sh*t beat out of them or 2) the Vong are stoped at Helska

Tiriol · Post by **Tiriol** » 2006-05-06 03:56am

Thanks Lord Pounder and Publius for the information.

It appears that Leia is not only a terrible leader under pressure (running away to find her children while being a Chief of State?), but also actually hates any forms of democracy if her "buddies" don't get the upper hand. Didn't the writers realize that their vaunted New Republic would turn into a tyranny almost overnight if only the revolution leaders would hold sway there even if the people would want other represantives?

Apparently not...

For the record, is there any information about how Bel Iblis and the other former Rebel leaders reacted to the former Imperials getting elected?

I hate to say this but I almost have to respect KJA in one thing: Mon Mothma wasn't a blithering idiot like Leia when she refused to accept Kyp Durron's campaign of annihilation in JA trilogy, although she WAS stupid enough to accept Luke's unbelievably stupid judgment about Kyp's fate and to transfer her position of the Chief of State to Leia with no democratic process whatsoever, so perhaps I shouldn't give even that minimal amount of recognizion for him.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2006-05-06 04:23am

Tychu wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:[

But the NR really isn't protrayed as being "good" in the NJO. It's shown to be slow, incompetant, uncaring, corrupt, and generally stupid, completely ignoring the advice of the Jedi Order and the military leaders who actually know what they're doing. Indeed, Borsk is actually portrayed as being a major antagonist up until his death, as is his successor, that Quarren guy.
Cal Omas

Cal Omas was Alderaanian, Pwoe was the Quarren. Pwoe was the Senator from Dac/Mon Calamari who attempted to gain control of the Republic after the fall of Coruscant while Cal Omas was the Jedi Backed candidate eventually elected Chief of State.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-05-06 05:16am

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Tychu wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:[

But the NR really isn't protrayed as being "good" in the NJO. It's shown to be slow, incompetant, uncaring, corrupt, and generally stupid, completely ignoring the advice of the Jedi Order and the military leaders who actually know what they're doing. Indeed, Borsk is actually portrayed as being a major antagonist up until his death, as is his successor, that Quarren guy.
Cal Omas
Cal Omas was Alderaanian, Pwoe was the Quarren. Pwoe was the Senator from Dac/Mon Calamari who attempted to gain control of the Republic after the fall of Coruscant while Cal Omas was the Jedi Backed candidate eventually elected Chief of State.

With large numbers of other senators and possible candidates slid mudd on or being bribed or blackmailed (see Destiny's Way).

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-06 05:50am

the Jedi Backed candidate

Whoa, I guess Palpatine's "Jedi rebellion" finally came true, eh? Are they really that intertwined with politics in the NR/GFFA?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-05-06 11:16am

VT-16 wrote:
the Jedi Backed candidate
Whoa, I guess Palpatine's "Jedi rebellion" finally came true, eh? Are they really that intertwined with politics in the NR/GFFA?

The old heroes of the Rebellion still have a strong place in the hearts and minds of the populace, and most of them support the Jedi, and yes, the Jedi do seem to be more involved in the government than before (although, keep in mind, Mace and Yoda did seem to have Valorum and Palpatine's (or so they thought) ear in the PT). Of course, the jedi did loose a lot of their old supporters during the invasion because of Vong propoganda, hence the Peace Brigade, which actively tried to hunt them down.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-05-06 01:00pm

Cal Omas turned out to be a pretty shitty leader too. In the excremental dark nest trilogy he seemed to get the impression that the Jedi where his personal enforcers and that Luke was his personal attack dog. Maybe temper tantrums and sleazy tricks are a predominant trend in politicians from Alderan. Makes me think the Empire did a service to galatic politics by destroying Alderan.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2006-05-06 03:19pm

The irony is that a rather large portion of the senior Rebel Alliance members were Imperial defectors. The only people they had with pre-existing large scale combat experience or training were Imps with a conscience, typically former Old Republic officers who didn't like the idea of the Empire in the first place but that still makes them Imperials of rank.