The Size of the Droid Army "Retconned"

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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

IceHawk-181 wrote:The claim now is that because details of Windu’s battle on Dantooine were based on a recollection from the farm kid the entirety of the Clone Wars Cartoons has been ret-conned out of existence.
Now why on Earth would that be so? Seriously lets examine this for a moment...

Firstly, just because its a kid's memories doesnt mean its not accurate. We've seen Jedi do other things like that, jumping thousands of feet straight down and landing on moving cars, doging laser bolts, Jedi force-fu, why is it suddenly inaccurate just cause it's a memory?

Secondly, why would that have baring on the REST of the series, where, you know, that kid is not around AT ALL? What did the kid follow the Jedi around like the SW version of Brin Milo and transcribe the whole story to microseries or something? :roll:
Utterly absurd, and a textbook Logical Fallacy...

They, well at least he, have completely run out of arguments.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

What did the kid follow the Jedi
And the Sith too. At the same time.

He is clearly omniscient. Oh! Paxi Silo is a God of SWU :lol:
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Post by Mange »

Stas Bush wrote:
What did the kid follow the Jedi
And the Sith too. At the same time.

He is clearly omniscient. Oh! Paxi Silo is a God of SWU :lol:
He was omnipotent, what do you expect? He knew everything that went on behind the scenes with the Jedi, the various battles and he knew that Anakin and Padmé were in a relationship and that he had a vision of his future self. :P
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Bah, no one got my Brin Milo reference! :cry:
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

In all seriousness, the only reason they want to recton the CW cartoon is because it toatlly nails their whole 'argument' in the rear, as it were.

Thousands of Venators? Check.

Long sieges on several planets? Check.

Numerous planetwide wars? Check.

Vast legions of droids? Check.


My, my, my...so difficult to fit the 3,000,000 clones number into this isnt it?
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Post by Mange »

18-Till-I-Die wrote:In all seriousness, the only reason they want to recton the CW cartoon is because it toatlly nails their whole 'argument' in the rear, as it were.

Thousands of Venators? Check.

Long sieges on several planets? Check.

Numerous planetwide wars? Check.

Vast legions of droids? Check.


My, my, my...so difficult to fit the 3,000,000 clones number into this isnt it?
Absolutely. IMO it was necessary to somehow retconn Mace Windu's feats on Dantooine. If he could destroy an army of super battle droids and a seismic tank virtually by himself, then the battle of Geonosis would've been finished quickly. To go from that and argue that this means that the entire CW cartoon has been retconned is ridiculous.
I watched a few CW episodes yesterday, and I noticed the truly massive amounts of LAAT gunships swooping down on Muunilinst and the thought that if there are three million clones, who's crewing all those vehicles? The losses even on Geonosis must have been felt.
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Post by Stark »

I love people who leap from 'Dantooine being a crazy outlier' to 'CW cartoon is totally worthless'. I've even had people claim that the whole idea of Force-Fu is baseless and non-canonical... even though it's enchanced speed and strength. Jedi do that shit ALL THE TIME. :roll:
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Post by VT-16 »

Even though it doesn't compare to CW Mace, Obi-Wan had some pretty bitchin' kicks in AOTC. Even a flying kick! 8D
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Post by Noble Ire »

Stark wrote:I love people who leap from 'Dantooine being a crazy outlier' to 'CW cartoon is totally worthless'. I've even had people claim that the whole idea of Force-Fu is baseless and non-canonical... even though it's enchanced speed and strength. Jedi do that shit ALL THE TIME. :roll:
Nevertheless, the feats we see Mace exhibit do seem to be major outliers compared to his skill in battle we see in other sources. Then again, that is really the only instance in the series I can remember that can't be rationalized easily or is really beyond the scope of observed Jedi power.
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Post by FTeik »

Perhaps the shroud of the darkside around him was lifted for a few moments. :P
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Again i think, even IF this was a kid's memories, why are we to just asume they're inaccurate?

Also most of that seems based off the idea that Mace's actions are outliers. But if the rest of the series is not the memory of that kid, and we see Mace doing similar stuff later (as well as other Jedi) then it ISNT an anomoly.
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Post by VT-16 »

I always justified his actions on Dantooine with him being completely alone. On Geonosis, there were Jedi and clones around him, restricting him from simply tossing droids left and right, like he does on Dantooine.
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Post by Mange »

Do we have any people here who buys the Star Wars magazine UK? Apparently, KT will have some sort of Odds Q&A in an upcoming number.
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Post by Spartan »

Noble Ire:
Nevertheless, the feats we see Mace exhibit do seem to be major outliers compared to his skill in battle we see in other sources. Then again, that is really the only instance in the series I can remember that can't be rationalized easily or is really beyond the scope of observed Jedi power.
How do you figure Mace was arguably the most powerful Jedi in the order. According to Anakin he's powerful, where as Yoda is wise. He's easily more powerful than Ankin in ROTS, thanks to Palpatine telling Yoda that Vader will read "eventually" be more powerful than them.

If you want to talk wanking look at some of Luke's uber feats before he even declared himself a master! Look at Revan, or any number of Sith. The simple fact is the feats in that episode are not outliers. Jedi can be that powerful. Witness Luke unload on the Vong at the end of NJO. Look at Anakin Solo, maxing out against the Vong just prior to his death.

There is plenty of evidence that Mace is very high end for a Jedi. More than a dozen jedi including masters didn't dare to fight him in the CW: comics. Soburq and Ventress flat out ran from him. In the CW cartoon he crushes Grevious without so much as a thought. He battled Sidious to a stand still and won. He took a lightsabre through torso. In short is is one bad man.

Before we start yammering about tossing out evidence and saying that that the episode was uber exagerated. I think a little perspecive is in order. Mace tossing around those droids is hardly uber, its not like the mass a ton each. Have we forgotten that padawan Obi-wan could toss droids for meters in TPM. Anakin similarly toss tusken raiders nearly 100 feet in the AOTC novelization. Mace's leap could have been exagerated but lets not forget we've seen padawans make 30 meter vertical leaps in TPM. Nevermind that the Nightsister, who are collectively nowhere near Mace's power level could fly!

Oh yeah and force-fu has a name Teri Kasi. The steel hands, force assisted martial arts. Its not like he was using his bare hands after all. Perhaps, this method of fighting that way is just more intuitive and efficient.

Mace, after all spent more time honing his martial skills that most Jedi. Finally, its not as though Mace never exhibited any other unique talents that no other force user has demonstated. Shatter-points, channeling the Darkside etc. Since he can used the darkside without falling, its no surprise that the "veil of the darkside TM" would net effect him as much as the other Jedi.
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Post by VT-16 »

Apparently, KT will have some sort of Odds Q&A in an upcoming number.
Oh, goody.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

Oh, goody.
It will all be on the line of "Palpatine sent 1 clone to planet X, everyone thought it was a billion because of mass-media, it's a POV thing yadda yadda", I guess.
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Post by VT-16 »

I hope Joe Corroney draws a single clone on top of a mountain of droids wielding a rotating blaster (SW gatling-gun analog) to drive the point home. :P
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Post by Fire Fly »

Stas Bush wrote:
Oh, goody.
It will all be on the line of "Palpatine sent 1 clone to planet X, everyone thought it was a billion because of mass-media, it's a POV thing yadda yadda", I guess.
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Post by Jim Raynor »

Apparently, KT will have some sort of Odds Q&A in an upcoming number.
God fucking damn it! Why does this bitch get chance after chance to "explain" herself and push her agenda? All her explanations and retcons have been ass-covering and half-assed, and they have only succeeded in creating more problems.

Traviss wrote a piece in SW Insider, and it was stupid. That happens to other EU authors, and they just move on and produce another work. But no, Traviss wrote Odds, a story with NO ENTERTAINMENT VALUE whatsoever, just so that she could supposedly fix things up. Why does she need a Q&A now, when Odds was already supposed to be the answer? :roll:
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Post by K. A. Pital »

There's a difference between being moderately minimalistic, or whatever, after all the EU pretty much is minimalistic compared to canon.

But it's different being completely out-of-ones-mind. Just remember that "Executor bankrupted the Empire" versus Han's onscreen "Don't worry; there's a lot of command ships out there". The "Non-Clone War" is the same. Yoda was clearly mistaken. A non-clone non-war has begun. And Sio Bibble was just having fun with "fullscale war".
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Post by Hot Hands Harry »

If anyone cares. I was watching AotC and when Mace Windu gets out of a LAAT a clone Commander informs him that they got 5 Units of Elite clones for him to command. Then you see Mace run to battle with 6 clones following him. So 5 Units = 6 clones? Then you see him from a air born angle and there is another group of 6 in front of him and the other 3 JedI that were with him on the LAAT had 6 clones with them. So I think this puts a hard lower limit of 6 clone trooper = 1 Unit. Canon Lower limit.

So the 200,000 Units ready * by 6 = 1,200,000. So 1.2 million fought at Geonosis. This would match some of the lower numbers some sources that say 1.2 million. The immediate ready clones.

So the million more Units soon would be 6 million. Two GARs. Within the next month or two.

The T-canon 2 more million Units would be 12 million clones with in the next couple of weeks. That’s 4 more GAR’s. Total of 6.5 GAR’s.

So if they keep up with that rate of 4 GAR’s every 3-4 months. I can live with that. That’s not counting the other cloners Units coming on line.

Thoughts.
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Post by PainRack »

This article may be of interest.
Propaganda Techniques
Related to Enviromental Scares

Paul R. Lees-Haley, Ph.D.(edited out for relevance)

Psychologists have studied several perceptual factors that help explain how reasonable people can conclude that they have suffered toxic exposures and injuries when they have not. These include social proof, repeated affirmations, appeals to authority, vividness, confusion of inverse probabilities, confusion techniques, and distraction techniques.

Social proof is the tendency to believe what most people believe. If an advocate creates the impression that "everyone knows" that someone is lying and covering up facts, there is a subtle implication that those who disagree are somehow flawed and lacking in credibility. Identifying a few people who believe a proposition, and encouraging them to go public (especially repeatedly) creates the impression that lots of people are experiencing something real. Repeated affirmations create the impression that the assertion is true.

Appeals to authority add weight to these persuasions. If one or more of the people affirming a belief is perceived as authoritative, e.g., a physician or a political leader, more people will be persuaded. It may matter little that the expert is the only one in the universe with that opinion, if he or she is the only one whose opinions we hear. Sometimes politicians are persuaded to join in unfounded but politically advantageous rhetoric. If we like the source of an opinion, we are more likely to believe. So if a popular actor, media figure, politician, or local hero joins the process, more people will endorse the perceived reality.

Vivid examples -- especially dramatic case histories -- often influence judgments more than dull but more accurate quantitative examples. For example, inviting the single child with a birth defect to the town hall meeting may overwhelm the fact that there are fewer birth defects in the neighborhood than in most similar residential areas.

Confusion techniques can create perceptions of toxicity, injury, or disease. For example, illogical but eloquent rhetoric delivered with an air of certainty can create such perceptions if a few clear alarming phrases are woven into the message. If the release of something harmless to humans is announced along with discussions of studies indicating cancer, birth defects, or brain damage in animals, concern or alarm may ensue. A classic technique is to pose an alarming question as the headline of a speech, article, or broadcast, e.g., "Are your children in danger?" We commonly hear announcements that "bad chemicals" or "known carcinogens" are out there, without objective data to clarify whether the type, amount, and location of the substance could actually hurt anyone. When someone questions the plausibility of the alleged toxic exposures, advocates may self- righteously respond that reasonable people have a right to worry, -- as though people who try to alleviate unnecessary worry are violating the rights of others.


Confusion, distraction, and other propaganda techniques may be used to make spurious accusations that inspire outrage against opposing parties. In response to recent criticisms of junk science, antiscience arguments are on the rise. Advocates tell us, "We can't wait on science. We have to act now!" and "The scientists want us to do nothing! How many people have to die before XYZ does what is right?" One such critic ironically declared, "We can't wait on science, we have to act on the evidence!" Certainly we make most of our decisions in life without conducting a scientific study first. However, the allegation that some environmental toxin caused brain damage in a specific group of people is a factual question that can be answered only by looking at the data, not by emotional reactions to speculation, sensationalism, and innuendo.
Just found something interesting. Look at how all these techniques have been used for the CW cartoons aren't official arguments.
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Post by Mange »

Hot Hands Harry wrote:If anyone cares. I was watching AotC and when Mace Windu gets out of a LAAT a clone Commander informs him that they got 5 Units of Elite clones for him to command. Then you see Mace run to battle with 6 clones following him. So 5 Units = 6 clones? Then you see him from a air born angle and there is another group of 6 in front of him and the other 3 JedI that were with him on the LAAT had 6 clones with them. So I think this puts a hard lower limit of 6 clone trooper = 1 Unit. Canon Lower limit.

So the 200,000 Units ready * by 6 = 1,200,000. So 1.2 million fought at Geonosis. This would match some of the lower numbers some sources that say 1.2 million. The immediate ready clones.

So the million more Units soon would be 6 million. Two GARs. Within the next month or two.

The T-canon 2 more million Units would be 12 million clones with in the next couple of weeks. That’s 4 more GAR’s. Total of 6.5 GAR’s.

So if they keep up with that rate of 4 GAR’s every 3-4 months. I can live with that. That’s not counting the other cloners Units coming on line.

Thoughts.
That has been pointed out. Something that's interesting that also has been pointed out is that the clone growth seems to be exponentially.

Oh, I watched AOTC yesterday and I noticed something that I thought was pretty interesting. In both AOTC (the clone parade ground on Kamino) and in ROTS (the march on the Jedi Temple), we see clones in groups of 90. That's something which isn't mentioned in Traviss' and Kaufman's Insider article which again shows they didn't pay attention to the movies.
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Post by K. A. Pital »

That's something which isn't mentioned in Traviss' and Kaufman's Insider article which again shows they didn't pay attention to the movies.
Did you ever think they were? Since all this Non-Clone War (3,000,000 UBER-SPECIAL-FORCEZ) crap started, they repeatedly went against the canon. The EU is ridden with errors; the Clone one just got so much attention because it's easy-to-see and atrocious. Simple mistakes like size & scale, drawn features of ships get a lot less treatment. Aside from the Executor, the AT-AT, DS etc. get a lot less attention.
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Post by Mange »

Stas Bush wrote:
That's something which isn't mentioned in Traviss' and Kaufman's Insider article which again shows they didn't pay attention to the movies.
Did you ever think they were? Since all this Non-Clone War (3,000,000 UBER-SPECIAL-FORCEZ) crap started, they repeatedly went against the canon. The EU is ridden with errors; the Clone one just got so much attention because it's easy-to-see and atrocious. Simple mistakes like size & scale, drawn features of ships get a lot less treatment. Aside from the Executor, the AT-AT, DS etc. get a lot less attention.
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that the movies, as the prime source, should be examined. In any case, I looked over this again, but the figures were slightly off for the Kamino clone ground and the march on the Jedi Temple in ROTS. However, I looked at the Coruscant Parade Ground at the end of AOTC and I made the following observations:
The large formations of clones is consisted of clone soldiers standing in columns of 26 and rows of 24 = 624 clone soldiers (Dr. Saxton made the same observation here: SWTC - Clones: Parade Ground

The troops marching up to form the larger formations are marching in columns of 13 and rows of 12 = 156 clone soldiers (it's possible to see during the camera pan in the lower right corner).
Hence, a battalion is most likely to consist of 624 men. Since 624/156=4, a company seems to consist of 156 clone soldiers. However, that seems difficult to break down into smaller units, but the GAR order of battle doesn't match the movie evidence (at least not at the time of the start of the Clone Wars).
I'll look into this more closely later.

EDIT: Slightly off-topic, but here's a new thread started by dp4m in which he asks how the Acclamators got to Kamino if they were manned by clones... Oh brother:

+http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx ... t=23832301
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