Need help with a school project- what do you think of rap?

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-05-05 09:33am

Rogue 9 wrote:Rap isn't music. Any idiot can talk over a drum beat.

I don't believe you. Post a video/mp3 of you rapping.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-05-05 03:12pm

I think he was more responding to my beat style poem about the evolution of rap.....

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-05-05 09:56pm

Some rap is retarded, not because of the lyrics but because the singer is bad. Rap, like any music, requires a skilled artist to work. Just like pop, rock, classical, etc.

Kanye West, 50 Cent, Emenim (before all he did was whine

) and Jay Z are good examples of good rap. Olde stuff like Run DMC, as well, are very good. Biggie Smalls was funny as hell, cause he made interesting pop culture references, P. Diddy is good as well...as long as he has someone to remix of course. I think one day i'll hear a remix of Movin' On Up from the Jeffersons with him going "Uh...UHHH! Yeah!" like he usually does.

One thing i like about rap, and i think most people who dont listen to much dont get this point, is that its not really taken seriously except by a handful of artists. Most think its a kind of joke, and go to extremes in their lyrics cause it's shock-humor. Like the early seasons of South Park, (before it started whining too

) it tries to piss you off for the hope you'll think its funny and exagerated. There are, of course, rappers who take this seriously, though those arent too good, obviously. But like most music, the industry is flooded by thousands of idiots who needed to stay home instead of play, like any other music industry.

I'm not a 'fan' of any particular music, in and of itself, because i find that for every one good artist in any given genre, there are thousands who suck. You have four hundred rappers, i promise five to ten will be cool, the rest will suck. The same i would say about any music genre. So really it depends on the individual song, cause sometimes an artist makes one good song then the rest on the album suck, but usually certain ones are more hit than miss on a frequent basis.

And completely agree its annoying when people play rap music at the loudest possible volume that they can. I cant understand why. Like you wouldnt hear it, IN YOUR CAR, with the windows up if it werent on fucking 11 or something. Try having that roll by your window at 2:00AM when you're trying to sleep.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-05-05 09:59pm

Ghetto Edit: i'm 21, male, and i live in the US.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2006-05-06 02:49pm

Rye wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Rap isn't music. Any idiot can talk over a drum beat.
I don't believe you. Post a video/mp3 of you rapping.

I refuse to so degrade myself.

Tranan · Post by **Tranan** » 2006-05-06 04:38pm

Rap music isent music at all. its an difrent cind of art. in the same way that painting and scultring is difrent both is art but mot the same.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-05-07 12:48am

Tranan wrote:Rap music isn't music at all. Its a different kind of art. in the same way that painting and sculpting are different, both are art but (they are not the same.

Corrected for spelling so bad it made my eyes hurt (and I can’t spell very well)

Now I think in my beat post on the evolution of rap from beat poets, to folk, through punk, and finally into an urban punk/heavy metal style genre (don’t believe me look who the early rap musicians liked (angry punk bands, Aerosmith, Hendrix, Misfits, Sex Pistols etc) Also sampling predates rap, people in blues and jazz would barrow other people’s cords and rhythms all the time.

Rakuseki · Post by **Rakuseki** » 2006-05-07 03:32am

How exactly is rap not music? I understand the vast majority of you loathe rap, but that's neither here nor there.

As a rap artist myself, I don't understand where people get off saying such nonsense. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't music.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-05-07 03:44am

I think the general argument is, "it doesnt 'sound' like music".

But thats entirely subjective. What is music supposed to 'sound like'? Who determines this?

Rakuseki · Post by **Rakuseki** » 2006-05-07 03:55am

Who knows? I've just had the whole 'is rap music argument' a million times - even with a client (I'm a recording engineer) who came with that silly 'It's talking over a loud bassline' argument.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2006-05-07 04:33am

Well i think rap is music, weather people dont like it or whtever doesnt make it 'not music'.

I think heavy metal is pure shit, but its no less music than classical.

I think people make the argument it isnt music, because they dont like it themselves. Cause you can say the same argument about literally any kind of music.

Edit: MOST of the time, they dont like it themselves, some may consider it poetry or classify it in some other way. Again thats all subjective, like most entertainment.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-05-07 09:21am

Rakuseki wrote:How exactly is rap not music? I understand the vast majority of you loathe rap, but that's neither here nor there.

People are pretentious and therefore assert things they don't like aren't true scotsmen. Take Rouge for example, it's so easy, but he's too much of a pussy to go ahead and show it. If I said some weenie classic rock was easy or pussified, I could show some of the notes that make up the song, or some weenie lyrics, compare them to say, Pantera or Slayer or Nile and prove my point.

As a rap artist myself, I don't understand where people get off saying such nonsense. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't music.

These people don't know what music is, or they do, but they don't want to acknowledge it. I'll acknowledge Linkin Park and Evanescence are music, metal even, even though it's simplistic and rubbish.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-07 09:47am

Rye wrote:People are pretentious and therefore assert things they don't like aren't true scotsmen. Take Rouge for example, it's so easy, but he's too much of a pussy to go ahead and show it. If I said some weenie classic rock was easy or pussified, I could show some of the notes that make up the song, or some weenie lyrics, compare them to say, Pantera or Slayer or Nile and prove my point.

Except that "weenie" is subjective, whereas "lack of melody" is not. Rap may meet the formal definition of music, but it is definitely missing certain major components that more complex music has. It is undeniably a simplified form of music which therefore requires less talent.

Of course, you could say that about rock music vs classical, and it would be absolutely true in that case as well. Classical music requires more talent than rock music. But in that particular case, classical music is also missing something that rock music has, ie- lyrics and the emotional impact that they can deliver.

In any case, there's nothing with pointing out that category B is missing a component which category A has.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-05-07 10:11am

Darth Wong wrote: Except that "weenie" is subjective, whereas "lack of melody" is not. Rap may meet the formal definition of music, but it is definitely missing certain major components that more complex music has. It is undeniably a simplified form of music which therefore requires less talent.

Well yeah, I pointed out musical complexity in my post. Linkin Park and Evansecence mainly play the same chord over and over, but they're still music, metal, even, though they're ridiculously less complex than the technical metal bands like Nile or the symphonic baroque metal arrangements of Therion.

In any case, there's nothing with pointing out that category B is missing a component which category A has.

I wouldn't disagree with that, but "it's not music" as a statement is just ill informed and pretentious. I'd imagine very few people that dislike rap would, when it came on the radio, suddenly go, "turn that awful urban poetry set to a rhythm OFF!"

Rakuseki · Post by **Rakuseki** » 2006-05-07 11:44am

Except that "weenie" is subjective, whereas "lack of melody" is not. Rap may meet the formal definition of music, but it is definitely missing certain major components that more complex music has. It is undeniably a simplified form of music which therefore requires less talent.

I can't agree with you on that at all. Melody is simply a rhytmically organized sequence of tones - if you're going to tell me what I rhyme over a beat doesn't meet that definition, I'ma have to say you're full of it.

Rap isn't simplified at all. Every skill it takes to create pretty much every other form of music exists in the creation of rap. It doesn't require less talent, it simply requires different talents. Granted, you don't appreciate those particular talents, but once again, it seems like you're confusing your dislike of the genre for it being a 'simplified form of music which therefore requires less talent.'

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-07 11:50am

Rakuseki wrote:I can't agree with you on that at all. Melody is simply a rhytmically organized sequence of tones - if you're going to tell me what I rhyme over a beat doesn't meet that definition, I'ma have to say you're full of it.

No, you're full of it. It's not a melody if that "sequence of tones" is all the same tone.

Rap isn't simplified at all. Every skill it takes to create pretty much every other form of music exists in the creation of rap.

Utter bullshit. To argue that it takes no more talent to perform and orchestrate the 1812 Overture than a "50 Cent" rap song is absolute idiocy.

Rakuseki · Post by **Rakuseki** » 2006-05-07 11:54am

Ok - so when I start spitting from bar one it's the same EXACT tone from when I end at bar sixteen? Be serious for a second here. Granted, when you're rapping as opposed to singing, you aren't hitting defined notes like a singer would (like a B-flat), but the pitch of your voice fluctates as you say different words in different ways to make your words 'flow' over the beat. But to say that when I rap I'm being completely monotone is ridiculous and false.

You're a damned smart motherfucker, Wong, but I think you're reaching on this particular argument.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-07 11:57am

Rakuseki wrote:Ok - so when I start spitting from bar one it's the same EXACT tone from when I end at bar sixteen? Be serious for a second here. Granted, when you're rapping as opposed to singing, you aren't hitting defined notes like a singer would (like a B-flat), but the pitch of your voice fluctates as you say different words in different ways to make your words 'flow' over the beat. But to say that when I rap I'm being completely monotone is ridiculous and false.

So now you're seriously arguing that an arranged sequence of notes is no different than the natural slight changes in tone that accompany speech patterns? By that definition, I melodically yelled at that other driver to go fuck himself yesterday on the highway.

You're a damned smart motherfucker, Wong, but I think you're reaching on this particular argument.

Speak for yourself. You have been reduced to arguing that slight changes in tone during natural speech are the same as real melody with arranged pre-set notes, and you haven't even tried to defend your idiotic claim that it takes no more talent or complexity to arrange "The 1812 Overture" as opposed to "Ice Ice Baby".

Rakuseki · Post by **Rakuseki** » 2006-05-07 11:57am

Utter bullshit. To argue that it takes no more talent to perform and orchestrate the 1812 Overture than a "50 Cent" rap song is absolute idiocy.

Really now? As a producer who composes his own beats, the same exact skills it took to do something like the 1812 Overture and then make the beat for say....."In Da Club" (a 50 Cent song) are required. Now technical terms, the 1812 Overture is undoubtedly harder (at least for me since that isn't my chosen form of music; hip-hop & r&b are)), but the core skills are the same.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-07 12:00pm

Rakuseki wrote:
Utter bullshit. To argue that it takes no more talent to perform and orchestrate the 1812 Overture than a "50 Cent" rap song is absolute idiocy.
Really now? As a producer who composes his own beats, the same exact skills it took to do something like the 1812 Overture and then make the beat for say....."In Da Club" (a 50 Cent song) are required. Now technical terms, the 1812 Overture is undoubtedly harder (at least for me since that isn't my chosen form of music; hip-hop & r&b are)), but the core skills are the same.

Seriously, that's the funniest thing I've heard all week. You're honestly claiming that composing a rhythmic beat requires the same skills as composing a complex layered arrangement of an entire orchestra?

Rakuseki · Post by **Rakuseki** » 2006-05-07 12:00pm

So now you're seriously arguing that an arranged sequence of notes is no different than the natural slight changes in tone that accompany speech patterns? By that definition, I melodically yelled at that other driver to go fuck himself yesterday on the highway.

Except the whole argument that an emcee is talking when he's rapping doesn't hold water. Listen to any emcee talk normally and then listen to his rap voice - they are almost always vastly different; so much so that you won't even recognize an emcee's regular voice if you've never heard them speak. When you rap, you turn your voice into an instrument. You're not singing per se, but you're not talking either.

Rakuseki · Post by **Rakuseki** » 2006-05-07 12:05pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Rakuseki wrote:
Utter bullshit. To argue that it takes no more talent to perform and orchestrate the 1812 Overture than a "50 Cent" rap song is absolute idiocy.
Really now? As a producer who composes his own beats, the same exact skills it took to do something like the 1812 Overture and then make the beat for say....."In Da Club" (a 50 Cent song) are required. Now technical terms, the 1812 Overture is undoubtedly harder (at least for me since that isn't my chosen form of music; hip-hop & r&b are)), but the core skills are the same.

Seriously, that's the funniest thing I've heard all week. You're honestly claiming that composing a rhythmic beat requires the same skills as composing a complex layered arrangement of an entire orchestra?

Yes, depending on the beat you're trying to make. Now if you're just gonna make a drum track, throw a bass line over it, and call it a beat, then of course it's not gonna stand up to the 1812 Overture, but take say the instrumentals producer Timbaland has produced over the years - incredibly complex in their organization. A shining example are the beats he made for Bubba Sparxxx on the Deliverance album, specifically the title track and the song "Warrant." Of course, you've likely never heard these tracks, so what I'm saying probably means very little since you have no frame of refrence.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2006-05-07 01:11pm

Rogue 9 wrote:
Rye wrote:
Rogue 9 wrote:Rap isn't music. Any idiot can talk over a drum beat.
I don't believe you. Post a video/mp3 of you rapping.
I refuse to so degrade myself.

What's this? Pink can't back up his shit? Color me stunned.

Post by **The Yosemite Bear** » 2006-05-07 01:17pm

also for ou rap haters what do you think of bob dylan, or the sex pistols?

secondarilly Robert Johnson could perform guitar stunts that many people would have a hard time duplicating.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2006-05-07 02:46pm

also for ou rap haters what do you think of bob dylan,

Fantastic lyricist - there's a reason his songs have been some of the best covers ever done. As a performer he's not the best and listening to him is an acquired taste. Not really the kind of music you can listen to while you're driving to work or whatever; there's nothing much in the music that's terribly engaging and you need to really be able to absorb the lyrics to enjoy it. Highway 61 Revisited does totally kick ass, though.

or the sex pistols?

They may have been new, exciting, and novel in their time, but their music has aged about as well as...well, Johnny Rotten, I guess.

secondarilly Robert Johnson could perform guitar stunts that many people would have a hard time duplicating.

What does Robert Johnson have to do with anything?