Need help with a school project- what do you think of rap?

[HemlockGrey]

I could have sworn I said I was leaving forever. Well, someone pointed this thread out to me, and I felt like I was compelled to give my opinion.

Of course, you could say that about rock music vs classical, and it would be absolutely true in that case as well. Classical music requires more talent than rock music. But in that particular case, classical music is also missing something that rock music has, ie- lyrics and the emotional impact that they can deliver.

Rap also has that. You don't get a lot of the more lyrical songs listening to the bullshit on MTV (but hey, that's true for everything on MTV) but it's definitely there. Some albums that exemplify this Liquid Swords, The Ministrel Show and the classic Illmatic, where the focus of the music is not so much the beat but the lyrics and the rapping itself.

Rap isn't music. Any idiot can talk over a drum beat.

You're a complete tool, but everyone already knew this. Rap isn't "talking over a drumbeat", and the only reason you would say this is because you don't actually listen to rap. I bet there is no way you could construct a good rap song that actually flows with anything more than the simplest of beats. Good freestyle rap especially requires an ability to think on your feet and construct (relatively) meaningful rhyming verses on the fly.

Rap is an incredibly diverse and vibrant musical genre, with many different sub-genres, so if someone dismisses all of it with a wave of their hand or some faux-pithy saying like

'Rap' needs a 'c' on the front of it to show what it truly is.

you can generally tell that they're a douchebag who enjoys pontificating on subjects on which they have no knowledge. (Oh, and Rye, about the heavy metal thing, sorry about that) You simply cannot take the entire genre as a single entity; there are big differences between artists like Nas, Outkast, Lil Jon and Eminem (and if Johnny Rotten can be referred to as an "artist", so can Lil Jon).

A lot of people also criticize rap for the "gangsta" aspect, and while it's been played up by MTV and commercialized because there's a market for it, I have to ask, what did you expect? Rap developed in the ghettoes, and a lot of successful rappers came from the streets. Of course they're going to rap about gangster-related stuff! The glamorization of it is an entirely different matter, but that's more due to the commercialization of the music than an instrinsic feature of rap itself.

Am I supposed to justify that opinion? Well, I suppose I could point out that I hate the idiotic bling-bling culture that it too often glorifies (the one thing I hate more than rap music is rap music videos). I could also point out that I expect to be able to sing along to music, and that normally involves a melody.

I can see how you would hate the bling-bling culture, but that's not representative of all rap, just the stuff that's become huge with suburban white kids; a lot of rappers, even popular rappers, are not associated with that.

And I think it's a mistake to lump in all of rap with simply one "bling-bling" culture. Are you talking about the 50 Cent style stuff, which glorifies gangster violence and the street lifestyle? Yeah, I don't like that either. But the bling-bling culture could also be taken to mean pop-rap like the Ying Yang twins or Lil Jon, which is not about the "street" and just about partying, fucking, and having fun, and not different from anything rockers were selling in the 80's.

Now I can see how the lack of melody (rap isn't really about melody, but that doesn't make it "not music"; a lot of traditional African, Okinawan and call-and-response music doesn't involve melody) would put you off. That's a perfectly legitimate criticism; some people just prefer a melody.

A lot of people also get after rap for misogyny in the lyrics. Now, attacking rap in general for that is just another way of committing the mistake of treating it as a single indivisible genre. And, secondly, it's hardly unique to rap. The Rolling Stones were objectifying women long before the first turntable was scratched; hell, AC/DC put out a song about fellatio called "Giving The Dog A Bone!"

So, as for my opinion of rap, I think there's a lot of good stuff in there. Some of it's popular, and some of it's buried, and some of it you just might not like, but to tar it all with the same brush it pure idiocy.

[Darth Wong]

Of course, you could say that about rock music vs classical, and it would be absolutely true in that case as well. Classical music requires more talent than rock music. But in that particular case, classical music is also missing something that rock music has, ie- lyrics and the emotional impact that they can deliver.

Rap also has that. You don't get a lot of the more lyrical songs listening to the bullshit on MTV (but hey, that's true for everything on MTV) but it's definitely there. Some albums that exemplify this Liquid Swords, The Ministrel Show and the classic Illmatic, where the focus of the music is not so much the beat but the lyrics and the rapping itself.

True, but it's even more simplified than rock. To make a simple comparison, in order to create a rock and roll band you need at least a drummer, two guitarists, and a singer. For rap, all you really need is a microphone. The practice of using canned music for the accompaniment is so widespread that even big-name acts do it.

The obvious retort is that it's purely subjective how little complexity and musical talent you're willing to tolerate in music. It's a sliding scale and no one has the right to draw a line in the sand and absolutely say that everything below that line counts. But it is also true that purveyors or fans of one kind of music can legitimately point at another and say that it exists at a lower level. I listen to rock music, but if a classical music afictionado tells me that my music is simplistic and made by people of inferior talent to the great classical composers, I'm honest enough to suck it up and admit that it's true. Unlike certain people.

[Adrian Laguna]

I can tolerate most rap music, and even like some of it. Only things with a heavy dose of suck, like My Humps, I don't like.

What I really like, though, is rap and rock combinations. Like the Linkin Park & Jay-Z CD, or Linkin Park Reanimation. There are also a few bands that are dedicated to that type of music, but since I don't have any of their CDs their names escape me.

[weemadando]

I really love old-school east coast stuff like Public Enemy, Run DMC, De La Soul, but there are some good ones. I also tend to lean to the fusion side of things, either funk, like the newly arrived Gnarls Barkly or metal/rock like House of Pain.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I really love old-school east coast stuff like Public Enemy, Run DMC, De La Soul, but there are some good ones. I also tend to lean to the fusion side of things, either funk, like the newly arrived Gnarls Barkly or metal/rock like House of Pain.

you forgot RUN/DMC and NWA's favorite bunch of jewish rappers.

repeat: NO REST TILL BROOKLIN!!!
the beasties...

[weemadando]

Fuck me, how did I forget the Beastie Boys?

[DPDarkPrimus]

Fuck me, how did I forget the Beastie Boys?

Who, as I mentioned way back in this thread, actually fucking PLAY instruments.

[The Yosemite Bear]

the only really bad thing that the beasties did, was letting one of their kid brother and his cousins form a fucking boy band (new kids on the block)*


*horowitz of NKOB is Horowitz of the Beasties little brother, the rest of NKOB are second or third cousins to someone else in the beasties....

[Plekhanov]

Rap isn't music. Any idiot can talk over a drum beat.

No they can't link it's harder than you might think, want to prove otherwise have a go yourself.

Really now? As a producer who composes his own beats, the same exact skills it took to do something like the 1812 Overture and then make the beat for say....."In Da Club" (a 50 Cent song) are required. Now technical terms, the 1812 Overture is undoubtedly harder (at least for me since that isn't my chosen form of music; hip-hop & r&b are)), but the core skills are the same.

Seriously, that's the funniest thing I've heard all week. You're honestly claiming that composing a rhythmic beat requires the same skills as composing a complex layered arrangement of an entire orchestra?

You may not know this Mike but generally in hip-hop when you refer to a 'beat' what is meant is the backing track that people rap to, it may be as simple as a drum loop with a bit of scratching ontop our it can be some mind bogglingly intricate creation that that took days of pissing about in a studio or it can be a live band and yes writing ‘a beat’ involves essentially the same core skills as writing classical music. Don’t believe me? Then have a look at this video of some classical music type kids tackling some of the ‘beats’ from DJ Shadow’s wonderful Endtroducing.

Incidentally as you brought up the 1812 Overture one of the DJs at the hip-hop night I promote is a classically trained musician and music graduate who has played the 1812 overture (well atleast was 2nd viola in an orchestra which played the 1812 overture). She doesn’t do the orchestra thing anymore but still plays in a string quartet and she at least definitely regards both Jurassic 5 and Mozart as music.

or the sex pistols?

They may have been new, exciting, and novel in their time, but their music has aged about as well as...well, Johnny Rotten, I guess.

I disagree 'Never Mind the Bollocks' has aged very well and still sounds fresh even today, ‘God Save the Queen’, ‘Pretty Vacant’ and the rest still go down very well whenever I play them atleast.

[Joe]

I disagree 'Never Mind the Bollocks' has aged very well and still sounds fresh even today, ‘God Save the Queen’, ‘Pretty Vacant’ and the rest still go down very well whenever I play them atleast.

Your mileage may vary, I suppose. To me God Save the Queen sounds like nothing more than some undoubtedly smelly kids banging their instruments and screaming about how bad the Queen sucks, which is exactly what it was. The whole "fuck the Queen" schtick may have been shocking as hell back then but now it elicits nothing more than an indifferent shrug (from me, anyway). And I'm not really an anti-punk person, either; I do like the Clash quite a bit.

That said, I can certainly acknowledge that the Sex Pistols were a huge influence on modern music, and a lot of my favorite bands today are influenced by them.

[Fleet Admiral JD]

You may not know this Mike but generally in hip-hop when you refer to a 'beat' what is meant is the backing track that people rap to, it may be as simple as a drum loop with a bit of scratching ontop our it can be some mind bogglingly intricate creation that that took days of pissing about in a studio or it can be a live band and yes writing ‘a beat’ involves essentially the same core skills as writing classical music. Don’t believe me? Then have a look at this video of some classical music type kids tackling some of the ‘beats’ from DJ Shadow’s wonderful Endtroducing.

Dear God, DAYS to write!?!! Stop the presses.

Some composers take YEARS. I've been working on a concert band piece for well over a month yet and I'm still not into the final movement. It takes a lot more for me or anyone to write music for a full concert band or symphony than it does to crank out a drumbeat on a set. You don't have to worry about harmonizing in the drumbeat, but if even the piccolo is off in my composition, it screws the entire sound that I'm trying to produce over.

Incidentally as you brought up the 1812 Overture one of the DJs at the hip-hop night I promote is a classically trained musician and music graduate who has played the 1812 overture (well atleast was 2nd viola in an orchestra which played the 1812 overture). She doesn’t do the orchestra thing anymore but still plays in a string quartet and she at least definitely regards both Jurassic 5 and Mozart as music.

And this has fuck-all to do with how hard it is to compose rap?

[Rakuseki]

It takes a lot more for me or anyone to write music for a full concert band or symphony than it does to crank out a drumbeat on a set. You don't have to worry about harmonizing in the drumbeat, but if even the piccolo is off in my composition, it screws the entire sound that I'm trying to produce over.

Of course, this assumes that a rap instrumental is just a drum beat and doesn't have other instruments in the mix that also need to be harmonized, not to mention be properly compressed and companded, EQed, and placed in the stereo imaging field to sound correctly.

Of course, the format of a rap song (let alone, any song that will be played on the radio) is such that it's only about 3-4 minutes long and is separated in to verse/hook/bridge components, so it doesn't take as long to craft as a symphony, but it is no less complex or requires less talent to put together.

[Fleet Admiral JD]

It takes a lot more for me or anyone to write music for a full concert band or symphony than it does to crank out a drumbeat on a set. You don't have to worry about harmonizing in the drumbeat, but if even the piccolo is off in my composition, it screws the entire sound that I'm trying to produce over.

Of course, this assumes that a rap instrumental is just a drum beat and doesn't have other instruments in the mix that also need to be harmonized, not to mention be properly compressed and companded, EQed, and placed in the stereo imaging field to sound correctly.

Of course, the format of a rap song (let alone, any song that will be played on the radio) is such that it's only about 3-4 minutes long and is separated in to verse/hook/bridge components, so it doesn't take as long to craft as a symphony, but it is no less complex or requires less talent to put together.

See John, Elton, for popular music often arranged for a symphony.

And yes, it does in fact take more talent and patience to harmonize 14 horn parts, add two percussion parts, timpany, mallet instruments, etc. than to harmonize two guitars, a bass, and a kit. Which is why there are twelve or thirteen bands around that write their own music, and two kids who write stuff for larger ensembles. Which is why there are more famous small bands than composers.

[Tranan]

Rap music isn't music at all. Its a different kind of art. in the same way that painting and sculpting are different, both are art but (they are not the same.

Corrected for spelling so bad it made my eyes hurt (and I can’t spell very well)


Now I think in my beat post on the evolution of rap from beat poets, to folk, through punk, and finally into an urban punk/heavy metal style genre (don’t believe me look who the early rap musicians liked (angry punk bands, Aerosmith, Hendrix, Misfits, Sex Pistols etc) Also sampling predates rap, people in blues and jazz would barrow other people’s cords and rhythms all the time.

Sorry fore my dyslexia. I cant help it, but i try. You must hawe sensetive eyes. poor you.

I dont like most of the rap i hear and those i like is becose its a good beat to it. and 99% of the timest it becose they stolen the beat from a other artist.

[Chardok]

Just for flavor...

E.S. Posthumus shows how sometimes, rap can be combined with classical-style songs to make good music....

Though most rap in and of itself is freakin' garbage,

Mmm hmm.

[Fleet Admiral JD]

Just for the record:

I have a fairly eclectic taste in music. I play in a concert band, a jazz band, a marching band, and somtimes just solo, on tenor and alto saxes. I play a little piano, and I am an amature composer. I've got eight years experience on sax, and about the same on piano.

As far as listening to music, I like a lot of classic rock (Eagles, Supertramp, etc.), Motown, Songs from musicals (Andy Lloyd Webber especially). I enjoy classical music, big band jazz, more modern jazz, folk tunes, Jimmy Buffet, and a whole lot more. I don't like hip-hop or, obviously, rap.

[The Yosemite Bear]

yes, but dyslexia (which I have a mild case of), shouldn't affect grammer (using the wrong word for the sentance)

[TheFeniX]

Nonsense. Critics were very vocal during the early rock era; many bands had to censor themselves when performing in certain venues as a result.

As does any rap band that ever hopes to hear their music on the radio. In fact, most rappers have to completely redo their music to have any chance in Hell of getting on the radio.

But the fact is that singing about sex, partying, and contempt for authority is hardly scandalous; teens have been known for doing all those things for a very long time, and most people agree that they will always do those things. That's not quite the same thing as glorifying the gangsta lifestyle.

Yea, but you've got douchebags like Kobain glorifying kidnap and rape. One of Offsprings most popular songs (Come out and play) talks about high school kids beating the shit out of each other (It is not about sex, although I still get people who argue with me about it). For something a bit newer, Shine Down's Save Me is about Heroine abuse.

I look back on years of music, and rarely see any form of "positive" message. I consider it in the same boat as video games. There's a load of violence and sexually explicit material out there, and it's up to the individual whether they just listen/play because they enjoy it, or if the decide to "glorify" it beyond a rational manner.

I despise the message that "Save Me" potrays, but I enjoy the song. If I could still stand rap (I like Without Me by Eminem because of the beat, and the old BF1942 video with the head-banging, but that's about it), I'd ignore the message and focus on the music itself.

[Surlethe]

yes, but dyslexia (which I have a mild case of), shouldn't affect grammer (using the wrong word for the sentance)

Perhaps it's because he's not a native English speaker?

On topic in the thread: what's the definition of music? And where does one draw the line between "music" and "cacaphony" (if such line drawing's necessary)?

[Durandal]

Rap isn't music. Any idiot can talk over a drum beat.

Just like any band fag with a pair of lips and a good dick to practice on can blow into a trombone, right?

[Darth Wong]

Yea, but you've got douchebags like Kobain glorifying kidnap and rape. One of Offsprings most popular songs (Come out and play) talks about high school kids beating the shit out of each other (It is not about sex, although I still get people who argue with me about it). For something a bit newer, Shine Down's Save Me is about Heroine abuse.

You seem to think I'm going to speak out in support of that shit.

I look back on years of music, and rarely see any form of "positive" message.

Yes, but the message of 50s and 60s rock was generally much less offensive than that of 90s rock/rap. The 90s was the decade when "being pissed at everything" became the most popular style of music among the "cool" people (the rest listened to Britney Spears or N Sync).

[Uraniun235]

Rap isn't music. Any idiot can talk over a drum beat.

Just like any band fag with a pair of lips and a good dick to practice on can blow into a trombone, right?

I take great umbrage at that, sir!


...it's more like blowing raspberrys on somebody's stomach.

[TheFeniX]

You seem to think I'm going to speak out in support of that shit.

No, I'm just stating that music has been going down the shitter across the board, not just rap.

Yes, but the message of 50s and 60s rock was generally much less offensive than that of 90s rock/rap. The 90s was the decade when "being pissed at everything" became the most popular style of music among the "cool" people (the rest listened to Britney Spears or N Sync).

I would say the messages probably didn't shock people anymore back then, than they do now. But I will grant that sex, drugs, and civil unrest are debatable moral issues, while murdering police officers and beating women are not.

[Darth Wong]

No, I'm just stating that music has been going down the shitter across the board, not just rap.

But rap has quite frankly been leading the charge, in a big way. For every example of shitheaded rock/pop lyrics you can find, there are a fucking boatload of rap examples. Hell, even the videos make this obvious, with stupid rap baggypants no-brain assholes flashing their "bling bling" and long-winded close-ups of girls "shaking their booty". So much of that shit music is all about bragging about how much tail you get or how much money you have or how tough you are.

[HemlockGrey]

So much of that shit music is all about bragging about how much tail you get or how much money you have or how tough you are.

Hmm, sounds familiar...

I'm dirty, mean, and mighty unclean,
I'm a wanted man
Public enemy number one,
Understand?
So, lock up your daughter, and lock up your wife,
Lock up your backdoor, and run for your life
The man is back in town,
So, don't you mess me 'round...