Illusion of Reality and the Matrix

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-12 11:36pm

No, I'm just saying that the jury is out until all evidence is available. If'n they don't address this bit o' glaring stupidity... Well, that's life, I guess.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-12 11:39pm

But we were given a history of the events.

Machines try to take over.
Humans create nuclear winter, blocking out the sun.
Machines can no longer use solar energy, so use humans as energy source.

I think that you just don't like it, so you've decided to make up your own answer, thinking that a personal interpretation overrides official fact.

Reminds me of the behavior of many an Eva fan.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-12 11:59pm

Well obviously I'll have to accept it if a different reason is not put forward by the end of the third movie, won't I? I won't like it, but that's the way things are. Until then, I can postulate all I like.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 12:03am

That's not how things work.

You have to accept facts until they are challenged in an upcoming publication. You're doing the exact opposite: refusing to accept facts and hoping they are challenged in an upcoming publication, with some personal wishful thinking added in.

ArmorPierce · Post by **ArmorPierce** » 2002-12-13 12:04am

If I knew that it wasn't real it would even be worse because I know that nothing is real and nothing actually matters; it's all fake!

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 12:22am

T SPANKY: Sorry, just too hung up on reality. Since the liberated ones aren't arcing whenever they come near a piece of metal or frying each other from body heat, it's hard to imagine the rest of humanity as anything but a waste of resources to the machines.

T ARMOR: The universe doesn't give a shit about you. Your continued existence (and all of humanity's for that matter) is irrelavent. So what's the point? The point is that you are alive and aware. Anything beyond that is window dressings.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-13 12:28am

Spanky, in order to be a good member of this site, theres a general consensus that you cant take DIALOGUE as proof. I'm sure mike will back me up here.

And yes, hes ignoring "canon" dialogue because hes rationalising the purpose of the matrix. I mean fuck, they said the robots were powered by the sun at first which makes no sense because then theyd have to have gigantic solar panels on them nonstop and that makes no sense when power cords and batteries make operation so much easier.

He also raises the idea of the "real" being another layer of the matrix. That was my whole point from the very beginning: If ONE fake work is identical to the real world, what makes you think the real world you escape to is real? I can't believe that you people are saying you'd give up your lives that youve lived for a world that is apparently less inhabitable, where everything is different and unfamiliar, and where you know noone (remember, you may live a mile from your best friend, but he could be on the other side of the "real" world).

What I'm getting at is, theres no way for you to ever know when youre in the real world, so you'd spend your entire existance trying to escape from possibly INFINITE numbers of existances.

BTW, if your body isnt being harmed at all (rather, its being kept in perfect condition) and you still get to do everything you want, just not physically "real", why is that bad? The morphine example is a bad one because youre not comparing freedom to freedom, youre comparing mental-and-virtual-physical freedom to mindnumbed abuse. How you can say that being plugged into the matrix, being perfectly healthy for your entire existance, etc is ABUSE and BAD is amazing. The ONLY forced thing is that your body has no freedom. But thats irrelevant because you do in the matrix!

But granted, it would be nice if you had the ideal world where you could do literally anything (like shoot someone) and itd be like Unreal.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2002-12-13 12:39am

that would be such a joke. they spend all eternity getting out of 1999 matrix, and beat down the machines in 2199. . . and in reality, they are still plugged in! lol. . . sorry, no the one here, they just thought the messiah figure would make you a good opiate.

oh, and, kill someone in the matrix, and their still dead.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-13 01:12am

You are still being used with no way to remedy that situation. Its slavery to use me without my consent, regardless if my body is kept in pristine condition( something that the movie shows is not the case, operable yes but in original and good condition? ).

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-13 01:26am

original and good condition indeed. remember when neo first got out and he wondered why his eyes hurt? morpheus said its because he had never used them before. granted, the tubes kind of remove from pristine and untouched, but your body is healthy, sexy, without disease.

I guess this thread also raises the question of "what is slavery and does it really matter if it constrains your real body but not your digital body when you can still do effectively anything you like?"

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 01:35am

How can you do anything you like in the Matrix? It's just like real life, but is a total lie.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-13 01:37am

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:I'd be the next Neo then. Free me from it, party at Zion, and then jack into the Matrix and BLOW SH!T UP!!!

Word.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-13 01:39am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:How can you do anything you like in the Matrix? It's just like real life, but is a total lie.

And so what if its a lie? Reality is what you make of it. Carp Diem

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 01:39am

I would rather not live throughout a complete and total lie.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-13 01:42am

And your alternative is? Living in a barren wasteland?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 01:46am

Better than living a lie.

Think of the Matrix being a little like Third Impact.*

*that is, if you're not an idiotic Eva fan...

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-13 02:02am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Better than living a lie.

Think of the Matrix being a little like Third Impact.*

*that is, if you're not an idiotic Eva fan...

Huh. I never thought of it like that. Although I think there's a slight difference between them. The point of Shinji rejecting Third Impact was that you couldn't establish any real relationships, because neither you nor anyone else there exists seperately. In the matrix, however, while the environment may be false, the people themselves are still real, and your existence is real and distinct, not like a dream. So the analogy becomes a little less clear-cut.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-13 02:04am

Exonerate wrote:And your alternative is? Living in a barren wasteland?

Something to work for, and improve instead of having things given to you as a distraction to the fact that your are property.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 02:07am

Well, what I meant by comparing them is that they're both lies.

While the Matrix appears to be a virtual reality integral in keeping the suspended Mankind alive, Third Impact is the promise of a false reality that is better than current existance.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-13 02:11am

Ultimately, I would reject the matrix, as there are only two ways to live in it: either it becomes a world where there is no problem that cannot be solved through judicious reprogramming, or else it becomes a world where all of the problems that you face are there due to arbitrary and unnessecary limitations. The first world would be uninteresting, because there would be no challenges, no new possibilities to explore, no purpose for existence. The second would be just plain stupid: I am a direct person, and when I see some limitation or constriction that need not exist, I work to remove, avoid, or minimize it's influence, which means that I would very rapidly turn this into the first type of world. I'll take the wasteland over the illusion; at least the problems there are real (unless, the wasteland itself is an illusion, a possibility I would constantly try to test.)

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 02:12am

I still don't understand the argument of staying in the Matrix because "you can do anything you want", since I thought the Machines went after you for that kind of stuff.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-13 02:20am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:I still don't understand the argument of staying in the Matrix because "you can do anything you want", since I thought the Machines went after you for that kind of stuff.

Some people are apparently still suffering from wankfest delusions of them becoming the reincarnation of Christ, like Neo.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 02:22am

Figures...

Idiots.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 03:29am

Oh really, now... I can't speak for everyone that said that, but if I had myself I would mean that the limitations of the real world and the matrix are the same. Anything you could do in the real world you can do in the matrix. The difference? The real world sucks, big time. The matrix isn't a utopia by any stretch, but it's normal. Things act and react the way they are supposed to.

Think about this: For whatever reason, Man and it's Machine progeny came to conflict. Man cuts of it's nose to spite it's face, inflicting nuclear winter in an attempt at genocide. Machine turns the tables by using Man for the power Man tried to deny them (bleh, but whatever...). So, does Machine leave Man in a vegetative state, mindlessly powering their masters? Better yet, a "hell on earth", dangling useless hope before their helpless captives just to snatch it away, to avenge the atrocity Man attempted? Nope, they set Man up with a utopia. Problem was, Man couldn't accept it, it just didn't jibe with Man's experiences. So they give Man normalcy. Man can deal with this, it makes sense, Man knows the rules. It's even a decent era for Man. Machine could have used far worse templates for normalcy, but didn't.

So what's my point? The machines are being more humane to their "captives" than humanity have ever been to itself. While the machines have to deal with reality and forge an existence out of the blasted wasteland, humanity sits back, provides some juice, and gets to be about as happy as humanity as a whole can be while being blissfully ignorant of the devastation they caused.

So, who REALLY wins in this deal, hmm?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 03:31am

So you'd accept being lied to?

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