Yet another polite but stupid person

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Yet another polite but stupid person

Post by Darth Wong »

As the thread title says. This guy just E-mailed me today:
Michael Laube wrote:Hello,

I'm sorry that I write to you through this mailform instaed of writing through the forum. Beeing recommended by someone on the internet I've read your story "The Best Of Both Worlds" and have asked me, why you write about the federation in the way you do. Reading your website I found the page "Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes" and feel urged to tell you my opinion. Anyway I don't wanna become a member of your community by now. That's why I write via this contact form.

On this side you are referring only to the energy output of the weapons and shields. That's not conclusive. Anyway not the energy output is important but the way in which the weapons take effect on the target. For exampel a laser only exists of photons. If that bound on matter as a basic principle only heat is created. At the most molecular bonds can be loosened and the matter can change the physical condition that means to become liquid, aerially and then ionic plasma. Through such a reaction there is no energy released additionally.
But if you take e.g. a neutron beam it can start a nuclear fission. Normally hereby there is destructive energy released because of the nuclear fission in addition to the energy released by the weapon itself. Under certain circumstances an extreme destructive chain reaction can be started which destroys the hit target completely.

Or if you take e.g. a positron beam. If such one meets matter the electrons and positrons annihilate and in this process they release a lot of energy in addition to the energy of the weapon itself.

To know hot to create such beams is difficult but if you know how to create them they can be build with a lot less energy than a laser needs to have the same effect. That's why it is completely insufficient to compare only the energy output of the weapons. Therefore a phaser can be a lot more efficient although it uses a lot less energy than a turbo laser.

Examples for the destructive power of the starfleet technology that is not based on brute force but on superior technology:
In the episode "The Cage" of the Star Trek Enterprise Classic series, the one with captain Pike, is said that the crew would be able to destroy the whole continent with the build-on weapon and the transferred ship energy, when they tried to open the entrance to the elevator of the Talosians and wondered why the weapon had no effect.

In the second cinema movie a projectile "the genesis torpedo" was developed which should not only be able to redesign a new planet but a whole solar system. The torpedo didn't work redesigning but anyway it would be able to destroy such a solar system.

In Star Trek Generation the trilithium probe was developed with which you can stop the nuclear fusion in a sun and destroy a whole solar system with the resultant shock wave.

With the same superior technology the starfleet of UFP not only can destroy but also save. For example a extinct sun can be relighted and a planet which nearly falls apart can be stabilized.

The same is to be said concerning the shield technology. Only the energy output does not say anything about the efficiency of the underlying technology hence the way in which the shield repel an attack. Such a shield could lead an energy beam around the object to be protected or reflect it back or block it. The last way would be the most inefficient way and probably the one the imperium would use.

Concerning the speed:
The only real specifications that the star wars movies are giving to us:
1. The millennium falcon is one of the fastest ships in the star wars galaxy.
2. Han Solo maintains in the first Star Wars movie (4. Episode) that the millennium falcon travels with 1,5 light speed and
3.that he has already been everywhere in the galaxy.

This maintainings are only sensible if either the light is because of certain physical circumstances a lot faster than in our galaxy or this galaxy is a lot more dense than our meaning that the space between the stars is not so wide.
If that's not the case the maintainings are simply wrong but from a captain of a starship you can expect that he knows what he is talking about.

A further example for the superiority of the knowledge of the UFP concerning basic sciences is the transporter and resultant the replication technology or the developed interphase cloaking device of the Pegasus.

All in all you can only come to the conclusion that the technology of UFP is a lot more complex and more efficient than the technology in Star Wars. Star Wars is relying to brute force while Star Trek is relying to smart technology.

I would be pleased to get an answer.

Yours Sincerly,

Michael Laube
My reply:
I wrote:
Michael Laube wrote:I'm sorry that I write to you through this mailform instaed of writing through the forum. Beeing recommended by someone on the internet I've read your story "The Best Of Both Worlds" and have asked me, why you write about the federation in the way you do. Reading your website I found the page "Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes" and feel urged to tell you my opinion. Anyway I don't wanna become a member of your community by now. That's why I write via this contact form.

On this side you are referring only to the energy output of the weapons and shields. That's not conclusive. Anyway not the energy output is important but the way in which the weapons take effect on the target.
The damage mechanism can affect the efficiency of the weapon, but to say that the energy output is not important at all is sheer idiocy. And at very high energy yields, damage mechanisms become largely immaterial; a nuclear explosion and an asteroid impact produce very similar results because of the sheer amount of energy involved.
For exampel a laser only exists of photons. If that bound on matter as a basic principle only heat is created. At the most molecular bonds can be loosened and the matter can change the physical condition that means to become liquid, aerially and then ionic plasma. Through such a reaction there is no energy released additionally. But if you take e.g. a neutron beam it can start a nuclear fission. Normally hereby there is destructive energy released because of the nuclear fission in addition to the energy released by the weapon itself. Under certain circumstances an extreme destructive chain reaction can be started which destroys the hit target completely.
Wrong. Neutron radiation has a heating effect and only causes fission if the person who built the target spaceship was stupid enough to make it out of weapons-grade uranium or something similar. You could blast an iron plate with neutron beams all day long and not cause any measurable nuclear fission.
Or if you take e.g. a positron beam. If such one meets matter the electrons and positrons annihilate and in this process they release a lot of energy in addition to the energy of the weapon itself.
In the case of volatile weapons such as explosive devices, the potential energy of the weapon's exothermal reaction is included in the energy yield. Try again.
To know hot to create such beams is difficult but if you know how to create them they can be build with a lot less energy than a laser needs to have the same effect. That's why it is completely insufficient to compare only the energy output of the weapons. Therefore a phaser can be a lot more efficient although it uses a lot less energy than a turbo laser.
See above. You are talking out of your ass, to a person who knows far more about this subject than you do. It's pretty obvious you've got some sort of homemade science education, judging by your laughable claim that you can create net energy-gain nuclear fission in arbitrary targets by hitting them with neutron beams.
Examples for the destructive power of the starfleet technology that is not based on brute force but on superior technology: In the episode "The Cage" of the Star Trek Enterprise Classic series, the one with captain Pike, is said that the crew would be able to destroy the whole continent with the build-on weapon and the transferred ship energy, when they tried to open the entrance to the elevator of the Talosians and wondered why the weapon had no effect.
You're seriously using an incident where they needed a weapon with a special orbital power feed to take out a rocky outcropping with a door in it?
In the second cinema movie a projectile "the genesis torpedo" was developed which should not only be able to redesign a new planet but a whole solar system. The torpedo didn't work redesigning but anyway it would be able to destroy such a solar system.
No it wouldn't. The net energy yield of this process is actually NEGATIVE. And it almost certainly works on a principle similar to transporters (given that it does pretty much the same thing, but on a larger scale), which means that the effect can be disrupted or blocked.
In Star Trek Generation the trilithium probe was developed with which you can stop the nuclear fusion in a sun and destroy a whole solar system with the resultant shock wave.
If you stopped the nuclear fusion in a star it would take millions of years for the star to collapse and the undergo the reaction which would produce the nova. What you saw in the movie was a huge solar flare.
With the same superior technology the starfleet of UFP not only can destroy but also save. For example a extinct sun can be relighted and a planet which nearly falls apart can be stabilized.
Planets don't "fall apart" spontaneously. And the protomatter star trick is neat, but it wouldn't help you win a war.
The same is to be said concerning the shield technology. Only the energy output does not say anything about the efficiency of the underlying technology hence the way in which the shield repel an attack. Such a shield could lead an energy beam around the object to be protected or reflect it back or block it. The last way would be the most inefficient way and probably the one the imperium would use.
Totally irrelevant to the fact that shield quantification on my website is done through observation of their known abilities, not any sort of nonsensical first-principle theory. Not only that, but my "Five Minutes" page says NOTHING about "energy output" for shields; you are either ignorant of what energy dissipation is or you couldn't even bother reading that single page.
Concerning the speed:

The only real specifications that the star wars movies are giving to us: 1. The millennium falcon is one of the fastest ships in the star wars galaxy. 2. Han Solo maintains in the first Star Wars movie (4. Episode) that the millennium falcon travels with 1,5 light speed and 3.that he has already been everywhere in the galaxy.

This maintainings are only sensible if either the light is because of certain physical circumstances a lot faster than in our galaxy or this galaxy is a lot more dense than our meaning that the space between the stars is not so wide. If that's not the case the maintainings are simply wrong but from a captain of a starship you can expect that he knows what he is talking about.
Tell me, are you capable of performing even the most rudimentary mathematical calculations? Why don't you try calculating how many star systems you could pack into a volume of space which is traversible in a realistic timeframe at 1.5c, before proposing this stupidity as a viable theory?
A further example for the superiority of the knowledge of the UFP concerning basic sciences is the transporter and resultant the replication technology or the developed interphase cloaking device of the Pegasus.
Cool toys. Won't keep the Empire from steamrolling them, though.
All in all you can only come to the conclusion that the technology of UFP is a lot more complex and more efficient than the technology in Star Wars. Star Wars is relying to brute force while Star Trek is relying to smart technology.
By this moronic logic, a shaped-charge weapon is better than a nuclear bomb because it uses its energy more cleverly.
I would be pleased to get an answer.

Yours Sincerly,

Michael Laube
I would be pleased if you could go to university, learn science, and then get back to me.
Just wait till his reply when he whines about how I'm not being nice to him.
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Post by Surlethe »

Judging by the misspellings, weak grammar, and incoherent thoughts, I peg him at an arrogant sixteen. I especially like how the entire first half of his argument is essentially, "Efficiency > raw power", as if that's not one big red herring, and a wrong one to boot.
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Post by Batman »

Is this piece of drivel amusing enough to read through?
While we're at it, doesn't Mike already judge the firepower of weapons (Wars and Trek alike) by what they do to the target, anyway?
I half wish that dolt would join the forums.
Or should that be fora?
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Post by Stark »

Maybe english isn't his first language - he uses European ',' instead of decimals, and his sentence structure is strange.
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Post by Batman »

Stark wrote:Maybe english isn't his first language - he uses European ',' instead of decimals, and his sentence structure is strange.
While I tend to agree the problem isn't with his wording/grammar, but his reasoning, which leaves something to be desired.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Post by Surlethe »

Stark wrote:Maybe english isn't his first language - he uses European ',' instead of decimals, and his sentence structure is strange.
That's a European convention? I thought it was simply a typo -- his finger hitting the comma instead of the period. Well, you learn a new thing every day.

Ergo, revise my initial estimate to, "If he's American, then I peg his age ...".
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Post by Base Delta Zero »

Well, he is right in saying that a Phaser, with its chain reaction capabality, is probably more efficient than a blaster against personnel and rock... against metal, not so much. And of course, he forgets that the turbolaser makes the phaser look laughably weak in comparison. Which it is.
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Post by chitoryu12 »

And notice how he still maintains that the Falcon only travels at 1.5 times lightspeed. Damn if he ain't the email equivalent of a one-week troll.
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Post by Batman »

chitoryu12 wrote:And notice how he still maintains that the Falcon only travels at 1.5 times lightspeed. Damn if he ain't the email equivalent of a one-week troll.
In all fairness if he's german that's what the local version of the movie said. It's garbage, anybody with two or more working brain cells knows it doesn't work, and it's overridden by just about everything in the canon but where the german movie releases are concerned, he's correct.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Post by Stark »

Base Delta Zero wrote:Well, he is right in saying that a Phaser, with its chain reaction capabality, is probably more efficient than a blaster against personnel and rock... against metal, not so much. And of course, he forgets that the turbolaser makes the phaser look laughably weak in comparison. Which it is.
Yeah, but he uses the fission example to say that Mike's yield values are too low, because energy would magically be coming from nowhere and apparently doing nothing before going away again. :)
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Post by Admiral Johnason »

I really don't think this kid actaully watched either the St movies or most of the series. He seems to forget that most of teh special weapons he brought up were BANNED and would take years to perfect. Then he simply doesn't look at the firepower of a SD. God, this guy must be a kid.

And how the hell did he not notice that the Falcon was not using realspace when he said .5 past lightspeed?
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Post by LaCroix »

Actually, the german version really does say "1.5 times lightspeed"

Dammed translators!

The english version of "0.5 past light speed" leaves room from 0,5 m/s past lightspeed to nearly everything.

I would really ask him if he has seen the german version next time, because you could correct him on the translation error.
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Post by General Deathdealer »

I don't see how he can believe that ".5 past light speed" or "1.5 times lightspeed" is slow. The specs for the Galaxy Class states that the max impulse speed is 75% the speed of light. This is if they are using the two primary impulse engines plus the impulse engine on the saucer section. This means the Falcon is about 2 times the speed of the Enterprise-D. How can he say this is slow? :?:
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Post by Lord Revan »

General Deathdealer wrote:I don't see how he can believe that ".5 past light speed" or "1.5 times lightspeed" is slow. The specs for the Galaxy Class states that the max impulse speed is 75% the speed of light. This is if they are using the two primary impulse engines plus the impulse engine on the saucer section. This means the Falcon is about 2 times the speed of the Enterprise-D. How can he say this is slow? :?:
.5 past light speed is Falcons FTL "speed", the FTL "speed" of the E-D is quite more impressive then 1.5c.
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Post by General Deathdealer »

Lord Revan wrote:
General Deathdealer wrote:I don't see how he can believe that ".5 past light speed" or "1.5 times lightspeed" is slow. The specs for the Galaxy Class states that the max impulse speed is 75% the speed of light. This is if they are using the two primary impulse engines plus the impulse engine on the saucer section. This means the Falcon is about 2 times the speed of the Enterprise-D. How can he say this is slow? :?:
.5 past light speed is Falcons FTL "speed", the FTL "speed" of the E-D is quite more impressive then 1.5c.
I was just getting my facts from elsewhere. The following was posted on TheForce.net about the speed of hyperspace travel:
It is not clear whether the time experienced by the passengers of a ship in hyperdrive has any relation to the duration of the jump as observed by a typical observer in the outside galaxy. The Galactic Empire is over 120,000 light years in diameter but has only existed under Palpatine's government for a mere quarter-century or so. If news of the establishment of Palpatine's regime was carried outward from the Core Systems in such a way that it only reached the Outer Rim Territories by the time of his death then the starships bearing the news would have average travel velocities of over 5000c. However we know that transgalactic travel is feasible within the early part of an adult lifetime (Han Solo crossed the galaxy before he turned 29), and furthermore the coherence of the Empire as a single political, economic and cultural entity demands trans-galactic travel times of several weeks at the most. According to this propagation timescale the equivalent realspace speed of hyperdrive travel is typically greater than 1,200,000c. This speed scale is supported in several novels references (eg. Dark Force Rising p.212).

According to this the FTL speed of the Falcon would be much greater than 1.5c. If we go by the above quote, then the 1.5c speed of the Falcon would be their normal max speed.

The following was posted on wikipedia.org (an online encyclopedia) about warp speeds:
Warp Factor x c Velocity (all figures approximate)
Warp 1 1 c 3.0x105 km/s
Warp 1.5 3.375 c 1.0x106 km/s
Warp 2 8 c 2.4x106 km/s
Warp 3 27 c 8.0x106 km/s
Warp 4 64 c 1.9x107 km/s
Warp 5 125 c 3.7x107 km/s
Warp 6 216 c 6.5x107 km/s
Warp 7 343 c 1.0x108 km/s
Warp 8 512 c 1.5x108 km/s
Warp 9 729 c 2.2x108 km/s
Warp 9.25 ~791 c 2.4x108 km/s
Warp 9.5 ~857 c 2.6x108 km/s
Warp 9.75 ~926 c 2.8x108 km/s
Warp 10 1,000 c 3.0x108 km/s
Warp 11 1,331 c 4.0x108 km/s
Warp 14.6 ~3,112 c 9.3x108 km/s
Warp 15 3,375 c 1.0x109 km/s

Yes the FTL speed of the E-D is greater than .75c, but I was comparing their non-Hyperspace/Warp speeds based on the above info. Sorry for the confusion.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Lord Revan wrote:
General Deathdealer wrote:I don't see how he can believe that ".5 past light speed" or "1.5 times lightspeed" is slow. The specs for the Galaxy Class states that the max impulse speed is 75% the speed of light. This is if they are using the two primary impulse engines plus the impulse engine on the saucer section. This means the Falcon is about 2 times the speed of the Enterprise-D. How can he say this is slow? :?:
.5 past light speed is Falcons FTL "speed", the FTL "speed" of the E-D is quite more impressive then 1.5c.
Actually, that is a popular assumption, but until now, I never really thought about the fact that it could refer to the realspace drive system's limits. It is entirely possible that the Falcon can achieve 1.5c with its realspace drive (using some sort of spacetime warping technology, which we know the Falcon possesses from the original trilogy ICS book) while achieving vastly higher speeds with its hyperdrive. After all, we never actually hear anyone say how fast they're going at any given time, ie- we never hear someone say "we are currently at 1.5 lightspeed" or even "we are now at point five past lightspeed".

Mind you, the EU came up with its own rationalization a long time ago, but it's an intriguing idea that there is actually some overlap between the realspace drive system and the hyperdrive. It would also explain the Bespin travel time.
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Post by SirNitram »

Well, SW ships carry that complex mass ballast all the time, right? Therefore they'd be able of pushing past c to whatever point where the normal situation has their mass dialate too much.

Of course, one wonders how fast the ISD's are, if they can outrun the Falcon in realspace.
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Post by General Deathdealer »

Actually the speed of SW ships is pretty confusing. If you go by my previous post, then the Falcon can reach a non-FTL speed of 1.5c and a hyperspace speed of up to 1,200,000c. But if you go by the info from the SW games and galacticempiredatabank.com, the Falcon only has a max non-hyperspace speed of 102 MGLT (which according to the TheForce.net is ~400m/s per 1MGLT) and would equal out to only .0001362c.
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Post by SirNitram »

General Deathdealer wrote:Actually the speed of SW ships is pretty confusing. If you go by my previous post, then the Falcon can reach a non-FTL speed of 1.5c and a hyperspace speed of up to 1,200,000c. But if you go by the info from the SW games and galacticempiredatabank.com, the Falcon only has a max non-hyperspace speed of 102 MGLT (which according to the TheForce.net is ~400m/s per 1MGLT) and would equal out to only .0001362c.
Games are really far down on the canon scale. And while Galatic Empire Databank is a great site, it's entirely drawn from games.
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Post by General Deathdealer »

Thanks for the clarification. I will try and limit my use of these sites in the future to avoid sounding stupid (I don't really want the village idiot lable).
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Darth Lucifer
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Post by Darth Lucifer »

His rant is mostly a gigantic Style over Substance fallacy, with a smattering of plain old fashioned DUMB. It hurt my brain reading most of it. :lol:
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chitoryu12
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Post by chitoryu12 »

Mario1470 wrote:His rant is mostly a gigantic Style over Substance fallacy, with a smattering of plain old fashioned DUMB. It hurt my brain reading most of it. :lol:
My brain was lying in a puddle on the floor. It was so idiotic that I needed a Wet/Dry Vac to suck up the melted gray matter and pour it back into my head.

Politeness and bad arguements do that to me.
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Drooling Iguana
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

Darth Wong wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
General Deathdealer wrote:I don't see how he can believe that ".5 past light speed" or "1.5 times lightspeed" is slow. The specs for the Galaxy Class states that the max impulse speed is 75% the speed of light. This is if they are using the two primary impulse engines plus the impulse engine on the saucer section. This means the Falcon is about 2 times the speed of the Enterprise-D. How can he say this is slow? :?:
.5 past light speed is Falcons FTL "speed", the FTL "speed" of the E-D is quite more impressive then 1.5c.
Actually, that is a popular assumption, but until now, I never really thought about the fact that it could refer to the realspace drive system's limits. It is entirely possible that the Falcon can achieve 1.5c with its realspace drive (using some sort of spacetime warping technology, which we know the Falcon possesses from the original trilogy ICS book) while achieving vastly higher speeds with its hyperdrive. After all, we never actually hear anyone say how fast they're going at any given time, ie- we never hear someone say "we are currently at 1.5 lightspeed" or even "we are now at point five past lightspeed".
I always assumed that the Falcon had some sort of non-Hyperspace FTL system, which it used to travel from Hoth to Anoat to Bespin without a Hyperdrive.

Of course, even given time dilation, it would be pretty difficult to travel between stars at 1.5c in so shot a time that Luke doesn't age visibly in that period.
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