Jewish Holocaust a Logical Conclusion of Christian Doctrine?

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-05-02 08:29pm

Again, I fail to understand how this is relevant to the Christian faith, as opposed to the Christian churches.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-05-02 09:28pm

CarsonPalmer wrote:Again, I fail to understand how this is relevant to the Christian faith, as opposed to the Christian churches.

What's the effective difference?

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-05-02 09:30pm

It's relevant because it's possible to justify Jew-hating using quotes from the Bible and the general premise of the story, which is that Hebrews killed Junior. However, considering that the entire Old Testament is about the Jews, one might say that you'd have to ignore the entire first half of the Bible to hate the Israelites and be a Christian.

In other words, it's partially related to the Christian faith, hence the popularity of that answer.

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-05-03 07:34pm

To Surlethe, there is no effective difference, however, the claim that has been implied is that no matter how you spin the religion, anti-semitism will result.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-03 09:07pm

wolveraptor wrote:It's relevant because it's possible to justify Jew-hating using quotes from the Bible and the general premise of the story, which is that Hebrews killed Junior. However, considering that the entire Old Testament is about the Jews, one might say that you'd have to ignore the entire first half of the Bible to hate the Israelites and be a Christian.

Oh puh-lease, God spends half of the Old Testament protecting the Jews and the other half punishing them for their wickedness.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-05-03 11:20pm

Yeah, but the overall message isn't that the Jews are half-wicked and half-benevolent. It's that the Jews are the Chosen People, and though they were sometimes foolish, they would prevail in the end through the coming of the Messiah.

mr friendly guy · Post by **mr friendly guy** » 2006-05-04 12:29am

wolveraptor wrote:Yeah, but the overall message isn't that the Jews are half-wicked and half-benevolent. It's that the Jews are the Chosen People, and though they were sometimes foolish, they would prevail in the end through the coming of the Messiah.

So the Christians obviously took it upon themselves to punish Jews on Gods behalf, just like how punish other infidels on God's behalf. Because the big guy was getting slack.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-04 12:46am

wolveraptor wrote:Yeah, but the overall message isn't that the Jews are half-wicked and half-benevolent. It's that the Jews are the Chosen People, and though they were sometimes foolish, they would prevail in the end through the coming of the Messiah.

After being made to suffer by the wrath of an angry, spurned God until they finally saw the error of their ways. You're honestly telling me you can't see how this might fit with Catholic Inquisitions?

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-05-04 01:16am

You're both right: Christians could easily claim that the Jews were being wicked for not accepting God's Messiah when he came down from on high. Easy justification for generous helpings of hard labor, with a side dish of gas-chambers.

Post by **K. A. Pital** » 2006-05-04 04:44am

It's that the Jews are the Chosen People, and though they were sometimes foolish, they would prevail in the end through the coming of the Messiah.

I didn't get that from the Bible, sorry. It speaks of a few dozen thousand people who weren't butchered at the Apocalypse from each of Israel's tribes. So there's the whole "drink the Wrath of God" thing, and then Mister J. himself said about how many times he's called for the Jews to listen, and they didn't so - their house is left abandoned. It seems they pretty much lost their chosishness by the New Testament.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-05-04 07:32am

Only three hours late, lad.

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-05-07 08:58pm

If there was no Christianity (or it was still a marginal cult) and the Jews/Hebrews somehow kept their homeland would it be much more likely that 2000 years of Jewish persecution would be heavily minimised?

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-05-07 09:14pm

I think the anti-Semetic attitude prevelant in Europe predated Christianity, in part because they were one of the more rebellious and troublesome provinces of the Roman Empire.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2006-05-07 09:26pm

wolveraptor wrote:I think the anti-Semetic attitude prevelant in Europe predated Christianity, in part because they were one of the more rebellious and troublesome provinces of the Roman Empire.

Do you have any evidence for that?

This is something I only half remember, but I thought the jews only had a significant presence in Europe after the christians started appearing in Europe, when the christians spread, so did some jews. That's where most jews in Europe came from, converts rather than hebrew migrants.

I could be completely wrong, and would prefer it if someone more knowledgable than me could clear it up.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2006-05-07 09:55pm

Do you have any evidence for that?

Not at all, hence the modifier "I think".

Big Orange · Post by **Big Orange** » 2006-05-09 07:49pm

If the Jewish homeland was not destroyed by the Romans and Christianity would've been marginalised, I'm pretty certain the Jews would not have so much shit thrown at like they have in the last 2000 years.

They would still reside in their homeland and without a full blown Diaspora, they would not be stretched so thinly amongst potentially hostile non-Jewish outsiders. They would not be unlike the Samaritans who exist in Israel to this day since the times of the Bible.

CarsonPalmer · Post by **CarsonPalmer** » 2006-05-09 08:24pm

However, I don't think it is quite fair to blame Christianity for that. While Christianity created that condition, the faith itself can't really be blamed for putting Judaism in that position. I think a fair question to ask is if another messianic religion took control of the Roman Empire, what would have happened to the Jews? In all likelihood, the resulst would have been the same, because they were an easily identifiable minority.

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-05-09 10:01pm

I think a fair question to ask is if another messianic religion took control of the Roman Empire, what would have happened to the Jews? In all likelihood, the resulst would have been the same, because they were an easily identifiable minority.

I don't see how that follows. Why should simply being an easily identifiable minority force them into persecution with no justification?

R. U. Serious · Post by **R. U. Serious** » 2006-05-10 02:45am

Look at the Ottoman Empire and how the religious minorities faired under it. They may not have had equal rights to muslims, but they did pretty well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Em ... _of_Nation