Illusion of Reality and the Matrix

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 03:50am

In this case, yes. Yes I would. Besides that fact that I actually consider it trading a shitty reality for a decent one, since the difference between the two is irrelavent otherwise. And you dodged the question.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 03:52am

Rephrase the question so I know what to answer, sheep.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 04:24am

Well that's mature. I think you know very well what the question is, but to rephrase:

The earth is a worthless ball of dirt. It's ability to support life as we knew it is questionable. It may recover, it may not, but it's going to be a long time before it's known either way. This is the machines' reality, they have to deal with it. It's not as bad as it would be if we were in their place, but it's definitely hostile. The only thing standing between the machines and starvation is their careful cultivation of humanity (guh, I feel dirty just saying that...). Comparatively, humanity is living it up in an era of almost unparalleled potential for prosperity. They have the exact same freedom to do whatever they choose that you and I have. The devastation that surrounds their physical bodies has no impact on the reality they experience.

So, who is better off?

The problem you seem to have is with the fact that the matrix is just as objectively viable as "true" reality. Subjectively, the matrix is quite frankly superior as it's more conducive to human survival and happiness.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 04:28am

The person in real life is better off, as he is not living a lie created to keep humanity busy.

I would rather live in an Earth devistated by war than in a false reality where I and others are not truely ourselves.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 04:54am

Well, interesting emotional response, but hardly an objective evaluation of the situation. Not to mention you're entering in factors which are NOT part of the scenario. You claim that the matrix is an invalid reality, when in fact it is just as valid as the reality that you experience while locked up within your skull. You claim that by being in the matrix, you will somehow cease to be yourself, when in fact there is no evidence to support this claim. Going with dialog between Cypher and an Agent, supposedly the machines could edit the memories of a human, but there is never any actual evidence of this.

All this aside, the actual question was whether man or machine was better off, not man in the matrix versus man out of it.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 05:00am

As far as I could interpret, the Machines simply existed without emotions. They just are.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 05:07am

Did you miss the whole interaction between Agent Smith and Morpheus? I'd say that was a highly emotional response.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 05:09am

Well, it's been about three years since I've seen that shit.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 05:20am

Well, suffice to say, the machines are just as sentient and aware as we are, and the hand they've been dealt is pretty shitty. Little wonder they feel a bit bitter torward humanity in general, and very bitter toward those trying to disrupt the careful balance they've managed to construct.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 05:23am

Well, then mankind is in a better condition, since I don't know if the Machines are happy just existing as they are.

But Man is still living a lie.

And I wouldn't want to live in such a way.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 05:31am

*sigh* Whatever. Potato, potatoe, and all that...

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 05:32am

What, just because I would rather live in a real Reality rather than a fake one?

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2002-12-13 05:32am

Way I see it, it's like religion. With religion, you either pretend everything's great and God(s) is on your side, or you accept reality. With the Matrix, you either pretend that everything's just peachy, or you accept reality.

If presented with the choice, I choose reality. It's always better to not live a lie.
Of course, chances are that if you live in the Matrix, you will not be presented with the choice to leave.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 05:37am

Nice to see someone on my side.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2002-12-13 05:44am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Nice to see someone on my side.

Always willing to lend a helping hand.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 05:51am

The problem is that there is no difference! Cause and effect, the laws of physics, consequences to your actions, they remain the same! You keep saying that the matrix is a lie, when for all intents and purposes it is as real as "true" reality! There are those who don't think you are truly living unless you're roughing it out with nature away from all this technology crap, and while that's a mighty fine opinion to hold, that doesn't mean they are right.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 05:57am

The difference is that ONE IS FAKE!!

I would not want to live in a VIRTUAL reality.

I don't give a fuck as to how much the Machines cater to Mankind to make it all real, it's still fake.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2002-12-13 09:23am

I'm not surprised at all that some people would prefer to live in a fake world. Afterall, alot of them 'dumb down' their world so it's easier for them to handle (religion, social conformity, drugs and alcohol, meaningless 'playing the field' relationships, etc), so living in one big video game is just another worthless thing to add to the list.

Why would they face the hand life's really dealt them? All the proles need is their bread and circuses.

(Oh, and thank god I'm not going to be down here in Iowa City this weekend; there'll be about 5,000 east Iowa teens coming down to get plastered.)

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-13 10:05am

Who cares if its a lie? Do you watch starwars and say "its a lie! I dont want to watch this!"? Youre still talking to people, experiencing things. Big fucking deal if its simulated instead of real, the social interactions ARE NOT. What dos it matter if its not physically real? This message board isn't, yet you don't seem to have much of a problem with that. Granted, you're not interacting with the matrix like you do a traditional computer, but both are equally real.

Utsanomiko · Post by **Utsanomiko** » 2002-12-13 10:10am

When I'm watching Star Wars, I'm not pretending I'm living it. i'm not running around in a Rebel uniform with a toy blaster screaming "I am Lt. Cmdr Jarrod Dellvarn!! I'm going to hop into my speeder and blow up the Imperial base!!" (despide what EFitness thinks), and be fine that it's all bullshit, since the interractions are the same.

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2002-12-13 10:26am

kojikun wrote:... the social interactions ARE NOT. ....

Will the Matrix reality have all the social problems of the real world? People will still get regected, feel anger and hatred towards people. People with certain mental skills will still to use those skills to seek power over others by developing and controlling social networks. People will still want to trip out on drugs, get waisted on beer. People will seek ways to hurt/kill others. I don't think Virtual Reality = Utopia.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-13 12:06pm

Cthulhu-chan wrote:Well, interesting emotional response, but hardly an objective evaluation of the situation. Not to mention you're entering in factors which are NOT part of the scenario. You claim that the matrix is an invalid reality, when in fact it is just as valid as the reality that you experience while locked up within your skull. You claim that by being in the matrix, you will somehow cease to be yourself, when in fact there is no evidence to support this claim. Going with dialog between Cypher and an Agent, supposedly the machines could edit the memories of a human, but there is never any actual evidence of this.

All this aside, the actual question was whether man or machine was better off, not man in the matrix versus man out of it.

I see no evidence that the machines need green shrubery or white fluffy clouds to be happy. They have their world and are uncontested (execpt a minor rebellion) so they are better off. Man on the other hand is being used with out its permission and distracted by a computor illusion. Yes, the machines said they tried utopia first and we rejected it. So the Matrix is a representation of modern times with all its problems. Sure you might want to stay in the Matrix if you were someone important, like an actor or something like that. But what about the homeless seen on screen, what about everyone who does not live a privilaged life? Does their Matrix reality compare as bad as one on a barren planet fighting oppression.

Your question of either a big fluffy, candy coated lie (for some, others still get the shaft) against a rough and brutal reality that one must fight to survive. A lie is a lie is a lie is a lie, and no matter if you candy coat it, stick it in a chunk of chocolet and wash it down with sugar water it is still a lie. A lie in which some still are homeless, some are still disaffected youths, some are still drug addicts, and all the other problems of modern life.

Reality while bleak, also has the added element of hope. Hope that you can make it better. No matter how hard you try to make it better in the Matrix, its still the matrix and open to change by its masters, not you.

Sometimes the truth hurts, but damnit I would still want the truth.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2002-12-13 12:22pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:I'd be the next Neo then. Free me from it, party at Zion, and then jack into the Matrix and BLOW SH!T UP!!!

I would hack into it and make all the virtual hookers pay me in well.... *cough*

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 12:29pm

Cthulhu-chan's position seems to make him appear to be the ultimate sheep.

"Bah bah black sheep, have you any wool?"
"Yes sir, yes sir, take all you want!"

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 02:00pm

Thanks for the ad hominem, jerk.

Since you seem to be unable to grasp the fact that the only difference between the matrix and "reality" is the matrix is not a bleak fucking wasteland, let's put it another way.

One of the primary goals of secular humanism is to reduce human suffering, right? What happens when you liberate humanity? Many will die just from the shock of the transition. Many more will just commit suicide rather than deal with this stark reality. Even more will die trying to survive in a world that just does not have the means to support them anymore. So there you go. Millions of deaths over the subjective assumption that somehow the matrix is an inferior reality.

I have yet to see a reason for your position on the matrix being inferior. All I keep hearing is "it's not real, it's a lie!' which is correct in the sense that it's computer generated, but completely fucking false in any context that actually matters!

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