Illusion of Reality and the Matrix

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-13 02:11pm

But you can never change the lie.

NEVER.

What ever the computer wants you to do...you do...you have no power, no nothing.

You are nothing more than a cog in a power generator.

So what you rather be, a person fighting each day to see another bleak dawn, but one day hoping it might get better or a cog in a machine with no hope of shit, since every action is dictated by something else beyond your realm of control?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-13 02:18pm

Cthulhu-chan wrote:Thanks for the ad hominem, jerk.

Since you seem to be unable to grasp the fact that the only difference between the matrix and "reality" is the matrix is not a bleak fucking wasteland, let's put it another way.

One of the primary goals of secular humanism is to reduce human suffering, right? What happens when you liberate humanity? Many will die just from the shock of the transition. Many more will just commit suicide rather than deal with this stark reality. Even more will die trying to survive in a world that just does not have the means to support them anymore. So there you go. Millions of deaths over the subjective assumption that somehow the matrix is an inferior reality.

I have yet to see a reason for your position on the matrix being inferior. All I keep hearing is "it's not real, it's a lie!' which is correct in the sense that it's computer generated, but completely fucking false in any context that actually matters!

The Matrix is inferior to reality because you the coppertop have no say in the development of the future. What ever you do, doesn't matter because in the end it will be the machines who decide what goes and what doesn't. If you do happen to change something, they can edit it.

In reality, you can change something and have the possibility to do so however bleak it is.

Will some be unable to cope with reality if unplugged? Yes, but how many more will strive and succed? You are arguing perception over reality and I still chose reality.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 02:29pm

I would rather live in a real wasteland where I can make my own decisions than live in an artificial reality where the Machines control everything.

Enjoy your time in the clockwork of lies, black sheep. Seems like you would also join Third Impact if given the amount of choice Shinji was.

"Baa!"

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 02:54pm

Ya know, spanky, I'm tired of your ad hominems, so in the words of some other angry guy, "eat shit and die."

*sigh* I figured there would be more people capable of seeing this scenario objectively rather than going with some knee-jerk emotional reaction, but whatever. I tire of this debate.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-13 02:57pm

Yeah, whatever.

We are seeing this objectively: we don't like being lied to and what to live in the real world.

I know how puzzling it can be for a sheep to attempt to understand the concepts of free will and the truth. Enjoy your computer fantasy world.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-13 03:00pm

So you take it, and retort back with your response...an Ad homniem is to deter you not your argument...and apparently Sparky succeeded.

As for the whole thing...you're saying well just change the Matrix...notice no one was able to do any sort of that until they realized it wasn't a reality and in fact the whole point was that you couldn't do shit to it until you found out that you were able to manipulate it.

In fact the movie showed how that the computer ruled all(or did you think the whole talk with Neo in the beginning was just for shins and giggles) and whatever they dictated happened.

You yourself in the Matrix are nothing more than a single cog, who will never be anything more or less to what they dictate...that is why many rather chose reality to where their own personal fate is determined by themselves...not some overmind go yay or nay.

Andrew J. · Post by **Andrew J.** » 2002-12-13 03:04pm

I would just be too lazy to leave. Fighting hordes of machines is just too much work.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-13 03:21pm

Alright, Ghost Rider, you caught my interest.

You contend that humanity has no choice in the direction of their fate, that they have no hope to change their situation. I contend that there is no situation to change. The world outside the matrix is a non-factor to those within it. The matrix is a non-factor to those not in it. The only evidence of machine interference within the matrix is against those trying to destroy a system that assures mutual survival, and is more humane to humanity to boot.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-13 03:35pm

Mutual survival...but you yourself will never be able to change your fate.

The Matrix represented to me what literally destiny worshipper, fundies...etc have always said: Your fate is written in stone. You have no free will and your every action is monitored and dictated by an overlord whom at times take little to no action and at other times direct and severe.

While the the outside is this bleak near hopeless landscape...at least you have the ability to grow persay. The Matrix constantly reinforced that you were nothing to them except energy battery and as long as you were blissfully unaware...well your fate as they wrote it to be would remain on that course.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-13 03:38pm

The point still contends that this debate is not whether or not would you if you never did but would you if you did.

The ball is now in your hand and you know the outside is real and the Matrix to being a gilded cage...as the first post was

If you were in the Matrix, and assuming you knew that you were, would you want to be freed from it? why?

The position is not whther you are blissfully unaware, but would you remain blissfully unaware.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-13 03:43pm

Cthulhu-chan wrote:Alright, Ghost Rider, you caught my interest.

You contend that humanity has no choice in the direction of their fate, that they have no hope to change their situation. I contend that there is no situation to change. The world outside the matrix is a non-factor to those within it. The matrix is a non-factor to those not in it. The only evidence of machine interference within the matrix is against those trying to destroy a system that assures mutual survival, and is more humane to humanity to boot.

You keep saying that the Matrix is more humane. How? In the movie there were homless living on the streets, various people were "taken over" by the agents and the "hosts were killed with out any thought or regard to their well being. People were acting just like today and we are not humane.

To the other point, its the difference of if you accomplish something in the Matrix (no matter what it is ) it is because the machines either allow it or "write it in" so it happens. You don't do it, it is taken care for you to make you happy or atleast to distract you while they USE you. In RL, if you accomplish something, well there it is, you did it, not anyone else.

The whole perdiciment reminds me of zealots who think everything good thing that happens is because of God. Everything in their life is scripted by God and their life is happy. But I ask if nothing they did was as important as was Gods imput, and without him, nothing would have happened, why should you even try to do something? If God wants it done, let him do it. While in RL, if I do something it is because I went ahead and did it. I can take pride that I did it and no one, even a invisible guy or machine made me do it, or did it for me.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-14 01:03am

I keep hearing you people saying that in the matrix you cant do what you want, you have no freedom, etc. You've never seen the matrix have you? The machines done care what you think! They dont care if you hate them, they only care if you try to STOP them. You can do anything but that, and youre fine! You have no restrictions, except helping to kill the machines. So shut the fuck up and stop saying the lie is bad because you can do anything when you can and you know damn well you can.

And in regards to the social problems of the matrix, guess what? THEY EXIST IN REAL LIFE TO! GET OVER IT. Atleast the matrix has the potential to be better then reality! Atleast in the matrix theres the potential to have a virtual paradise (not the Matrix 1.0 kind but the peace everywhere, no starvation kind). In the real world you cant have that, but the matrix CAN because there ARE NO RULES except what the robots say, and they dont GIVE A FLYING FUCK IF YOU HAVE PARADISE! THEY ALREADY TRIED IT AND WOULD PROBABLY TRY AGAIN!

Now for the sake of everyones sanity, stop this bullshit about no freedom. Freedom has always been about thought and mind not physicality. But if you want it the other way, go ahead and have the ability to roam free yet be complete drones with no thought process. You call Cthulhu a sheep, yet you think physical freedom is better then thought freedom. That is pure herd instinct there.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-14 01:25am

The Matrix is a false reality. It is a LIE.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-14 01:56am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:The Matrix is a false reality. It is a LIE.

Buts its a damned cool lie that you can warp around to suit your needs

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-14 02:06am

No you can't. The Machines kill you when you try that.

We're ignoring the abilities of Neo Christ for this discussion, Ex.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-14 02:31am

So how is it a lie? Sure, you can sit here and say "well of course it's a lie, the matrix is virtual and the real world isn't", but you fail to grasp the situation from the perspective of someone from that world. If you'd been born into the matrix, you'd never notice anything amiss. Suddenly you're ripped from the matrix into harsh reality. Whether you prefer things this way or not, on fact remains: Aside from cosmetic diferences, you can't tell the difference. Everything feels the same. If we completely throw out the reality warping abilities of the "enlightened" when they invade the matrix, then there is no way to verify which is false. So, you would forever be left with the doubt that you may have traded one "lie" for another, or worse, reality for a lie.

When you can no longer trust your own senses, what can you trust?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-12-14 02:34am

You're fucking ignoring the stipulation of the thread: that we know the nature of the Matrix.

Cthulhu-chan · Post by **Cthulhu-chan** » 2002-12-14 02:43am

Are you so ignorant as to believe that will make that much of a difference? The very nature of the matrix would have you doubting your own convictions! If you have no objective means to differentiate between the two, then your knowlege of the matrix' true nature will get you two things, "jack" and "shit".

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2002-12-14 01:19pm

Spanky, you are a lying bastard when you say the robots would kill you if you warp the matrix. Did you even watch the movie? It was full of KIDS little fucking KIDS doing shit like bending spoons with their minds and making toy blocks hover. The robots OBVIOUSLY dont care if you do that, why the hell would they care if you used "magic" to take over the planet? All they care about is that people are plugged into the matrix, not whether you warp the reality theyve created or not. Watch the movie, please. You obviously know nothing about it.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-14 02:06pm

Amazing that even the creator is asking whether or not if you knew it was a lie would you want to live in it or not and then adds...well the machines don't care if you screw around as long as(what do youthink those people were up too...progressing the world of the matrix or planning something larger by letting people slowly and surely have power to compete with the puters?)

The point is would you want to continue the lie or not?

Unless you had something completely different and are now reneging on your original words?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-14 03:56pm

kojikun wrote:I keep hearing you people saying that in the matrix you cant do what you want, you have no freedom, etc. You've never seen the matrix have you? The machines done care what you think! They dont care if you hate them, they only care if you try to STOP them. You can do anything but that, and youre fine! You have no restrictions, except helping to kill the machines. So shut the fuck up and stop saying the lie is bad because you can do anything when you can and you know damn well you can.

And in regards to the social problems of the matrix, guess what? THEY EXIST IN REAL LIFE TO! GET OVER IT. Atleast the matrix has the potential to be better then reality! Atleast in the matrix theres the potential to have a virtual paradise (not the Matrix 1.0 kind but the peace everywhere, no starvation kind). In the real world you cant have that, but the matrix CAN because there ARE NO RULES except what the robots say, and they dont GIVE A FLYING FUCK IF YOU HAVE PARADISE! THEY ALREADY TRIED IT AND WOULD PROBABLY TRY AGAIN!

Now for the sake of everyones sanity, stop this bullshit about no freedom. Freedom has always been about thought and mind not physicality. But if you want it the other way, go ahead and have the ability to roam free yet be complete drones with no thought process. You call Cthulhu a sheep, yet you think physical freedom is better then thought freedom. That is pure herd instinct there.

So your saying that life sucks, get over it.

I am saying that if life sucks, and if I have to get over it, I would choose the life that is real and sucks. The whole thread was, what would you do? I choose something that you obviously wouldn't and that is freedom.

Obviously somepeople would want the security of the Matrix, I do not deny it and mentioned it earlier. But I do not and that was the question of the thead, so get over it. Freedom of the mind is the subject and the freedom to do something with my mind with out it being manipulated by the machines is something that can only happen the reality. Deluding yourself into believing that you have freedom of thought in the Matrix is your choise. They can change anything they wish and move agents in and out of any software that is still hooked up to the system. Just because your so called freedom of thought goes along with what the machines want you to think does not mean that all have the freedom of thought. The only place you have that ability is in the Real World as bleak as it is.

Exonerate · Post by **Exonerate** » 2002-12-14 05:46pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:No you can't. The Machines kill you when you try that.

We're ignoring the abilities of Neo Christ for this discussion, Ex.

Ahh. Ok, never mind then.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-12-14 08:13pm

Everyone is always assuming that living in the matrix is better than living in the real world. If you don't know you're there, then maybe that's true. However, if you KNOW that it's a lie (and in this case you do), then to accept it without facing the real world is just running away. Sure, the real world sucks, but then so does the matrix, and I'll take a world where what I do actually matters any day. This isn't to say that I'd avoid the matrix entirely - I might just perfect my reality-warping skills to the point where I can destroy a few virtual cities and then set up a religion worshipping me in the matrix - but the point is that I'd live in the real world, I would not hide in the matrix forever. Those of you saying that it's better than reality, answer me this: If I gave you a working holodeck for Christmas, would you ever come out? Of course you would, because sooner or later the idea of solving challenges where the results don't matter would become old. Many people say that it's no different from being in the real world, and if the illusion was perfect, if it could be perfect, they would be right. But you know it's an illusion, and so it is NOT perfect, and there IS a reason to be in the real world.

Rathark · Post by **Rathark** » 2002-12-24 08:46am

http://www.orionsarm.com/races/virtuals.html

Check out this article on the world-building site Orion's Arm (which I am involved in).

By the year 10,400, at least 130,000 trillion citizens of the colonised galaxy (Terragen sphere, 6000 LY radius) live within virtual reality. There are also a whopping 10 ^ 30 virtual beings (in Aleph Absolute) who basically have nothing to do with the Terragen. "Only" 200 trillion are bionts (flesh and blood). Sentient droids outnumber bionts by 6 or 7 to one, and are mostly independent. A minority of beings have superhuman intelligence, with some (a few billion) practically godlike.

Most virtual beings know that they are living in VR, and have no problems with it.

If you lived in this era, would you live in the physical universe and limit yourself to the laws of physics and biology (although the latter have become fairly flexible, with the options of genetic modification and intelligence augmentation), or would you live within VR and "free" yourself of physics and biology?

Would you regard this scenario as infinitely better than The Matrix, or would you find it similar in principle?

SWPIGWANG · Post by **SWPIGWANG** » 2002-12-24 01:57pm

where you live is irrelevent, what you know is.

Since everything is an extention of reality, and the horror is not knowing reality.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Illusion of Reality and the Matrix

Stay in the Matrix?