Hello again

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-04-30 08:24pm

No, you're right. I was just splitting hairs, dividing logical and reasonable science and common sense into it's own catagory and putting canon elsewhere. Canon is always true within the Universe. I was just saying that sometimes what they're basing the canon facts on can be wrong, even if it doesn't change the canon facts themselves.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2006-04-30 11:06pm

Shutting up about deletions now.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-04-30 11:13pm

chitoryu12 wrote:Shutting up about deletions now.

How about you just say what deletion's you're on about and end the suspicion?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2006-05-01 11:32am

brianeyci wrote:If GL says there were 1 million clones in the clone wars, then it's canon period. There are ways to rationalize it, like saying that the clones are special forces or something. Hard to swallow, but that's it.

And if GL says something that is the complete opposite of what is seen in the films like there never was a Death Star?

Post by **Surlethe** » 2006-05-01 03:38pm

Darth Servo wrote:
brianeyci wrote:If GL says there were 1 million clones in the clone wars, then it's canon period. There are ways to rationalize it, like saying that the clones are special forces or something. Hard to swallow, but that's it.
And if GL says something that is the complete opposite of what is seen in the films like there never was a Death Star?

... or Greedo shooting first?

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-05-01 06:06pm

Surlethe wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
brianeyci wrote:If GL says there were 1 million clones in the clone wars, then it's canon period. There are ways to rationalize it, like saying that the clones are special forces or something. Hard to swallow, but that's it.
And if GL says something that is the complete opposite of what is seen in the films like there never was a Death Star?
... or Greedo shooting first?

Or the quiet acceptance of the improper SSD length?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-01 07:51pm

Way to miss the point. Lucas isn't the highest authority - the movies are. He can ramble about fifty-foot tall Leias all through his dotage, and that won't make it real. People thought the Executor was 8km because of a fucking RPG - anyone with eyes could see it was larger, had more engines, etc.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-05-01 08:16pm

Stark wrote:Way to miss the point. Lucas isn't the highest authority - the movies are. He can ramble about fifty-foot tall Leias all through his dotage, and that won't make it real. People thought the Executor was 8km because of a fucking RPG - anyone with eyes could see it was larger, had more engines, etc.

That is not entirely true, unless you're using a differing canonicity than the one we have listed. I'll re-post it so you don't need to scroll back a page where I referenced it, and I'll cut it down to just the parts I'm talking about.

Are the entries in the Holocron sorted as cannonical & non-cannonical? Are there various degress of oficialness?

The database does indeed have a canon field. Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered "G" canon. Next we have what we call continuity "C" canon which is pretty much everything else. There is secondary "S" continuity canon which we use for some older published materials and things that may or may not fit just right. But, if it is referenced in something else it becomes "C". Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon. Lastly there is non-continuity "N" which we rarely use except in the case of a blatant contradiction or for things that have been cut.

Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?

Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows.

So if Lucas, in his old age, dottered on about Leia being 100 feet tall then I suppose we could just call it senility. But since he has executive control over published canon, movie canon, and can enter into the highest-level canon anything he wrote or (as we can infer from the last statement) anything he chooses to right some day... he would be the last, final, most canon canon.

The movies are the highest canon source for the movies, because those are the things he claims direct control over. If he wants to change them, he can. If he wants to alter their novelizations to clarify things, he can do that too. He can also retcon, re-retcon, add in things, and change his mind--like going from wanting Fett to die in his first set of movies to mulling over a scene where Boba Fett escapes the Sarlacc in the special edition ones.

But, it would appear to Lucasfilm's perspective, if George Lucas says "ten years after Star Wars the Ewoks invade Coruscant," then that's his CANON opinion of what'll happen. I don't see any way around this. I'm still saying canon can be wrong or stupid, but it seems hard to escape that it would still be canon.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-01 08:33pm

SIGH! The movies are highest canon, so if Lucas says anything contradicted by what's onscreen, his rantings lose. I'm very wary of following authors intent AT ALL in cases like this.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-01 09:52pm

As someone else pointed out once, the author's intent of Voyager was that Janeway should be considered sexy. Janeway is not sexy, and all the "author's intent" bullshit in the world won't change that.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2006-05-01 09:54pm

Stark wrote:SIGH! The movies are highest canon, so if Lucas says anything contradicted by what's onscreen, his rantings lose. I'm very wary of following authors intent AT ALL in cases like this.

What you say is true, but what makes the movies the highest canon? The official statement by LucasFilm (GL's designated spokespeople) delinating the canon policy. That policy happens not to make any allowances for GL's rantings, but it might have (q.v. the Roddenberry Canon Statement on Star Trek), and that policy might be changed at any time with an official statement.

As of now, an unelaborated claim directly from George Lucas that Leia is fifty feet tall can and should be dismissed as just ramblings. If Lucas were to state, "Leia is fifty feet tall; this is official canon policy," in an official press release, then it's something to cause worry. If the statement is corroborated by LucasFilm as an amendment to their offical canon policy on the Star Wars franchise, then we're sunk, as it's become absolutely silly canon.

Stepping out of fantasy land, I reiterate that, as canon policy stands now, George Lucas's rantings mean nothing, and the only way George Lucas could make it official is by filming the lastest episode in the Star Wars trilogy (multilogy? What do you call a work with more than three parts?), Episode VII: The 50 ft Leia Wrecks New York with an appropriately-scaled Leia.

I'd be kind of interested to see the opening crawl for that!

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-01 11:28pm

It doesn't matter how you tart something up. If it's contradicted onscreen, it's WRONG. That's it.

They said the DS2 was 160km. They said the Executor was 8km. All with George Lucas' blessing. It was ALL WRONG.

50ft tall Leia would be better than Leia vs Jar-Jar - Destroy all Monsters.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-05-02 01:31am

That's what I'm sayin'! I'm just saying that something can be canon, and wrong. And that sometimes we need for newer, better, more movie-accurate canon to come out and fix it. So even if Lucasarts says "Yeah, this is this big," and we all go "No it ain't," and they go "Yeah it is, it's canon," it's still wrong.

And I'm not talking about onscreen. That's also G-Level, I was talkin' about G level trumping Karen Travvis level, and WEG level, and other such nonsense that is only canon because someone forgot to correct them--thus blowing a hole in Traviss' idea that just because LFL said "OK" to her book that it's all true. Wishful thinking I suppose. I can only hope his TV series or something will clear some of these details up. It's not author's intent in this case, since it's stated author's writing, same as a novelist's would be, and that's why I was saying that within LFL's view of canon--which they admit to be self-contradictory at many points, to be resolved as they come up--the canon itself can, to us, be incorrect but to them still supported. I'm comparing her Clone crap to the SSD debate and saying that canon can be and has been 'wrong' in the sense that it tries to flesh out the movies, but goes in the wrong direction, and that even if Lucas said that Leia was 100 feet tall and this was suddenly canon, he'd be wrong. Anyway, that's all, we're on the same page!

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2006-05-02 02:49am

Stark wrote:It doesn't matter how you tart something up. If it's contradicted onscreen, it's WRONG. That's it.

Only if we take the onscreen material to be a visually-accurate documentation of what's going on, which we do in Suspension of Disbelief. Such analyses of the onscreen material only have any canon weight because the overrides we use in SoD coincide with the overrides in the official canon policy.

Please note that I didn't say that "tarting something up" (that is, officially declaring something canon by fiat) necessarily produces a canon that makes sense, and therefore can be 'wrong.'

They said the DS2 was 160km. They said the Executor was 8km. All with George Lucas' blessing. It was ALL WRONG.

Yep. Those figures are wrong in the sense that the canon created by this nonsense would not jive with what we see in the film, I agree. Fortunately, at present these figures are also wrong in the sense that they contradict what's in the 'G' level canon, and are therefore overriden.

Nice to see we're on the same page.

50ft tall Leia would be better than Leia vs Jar-Jar - Destroy all Monsters.

Or Leia vs. Mecha-Leia: The Battle of Muddy Tokyo!

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2006-05-02 06:15pm

I never meant to accuse him of ridiculous reasons for deletions. I simply believe that Newland would be such a n00b as to do something like that. I will look at the issue myself later.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-05-02 06:42pm

chitoryu12 wrote:I never meant to accuse him of ridiculous reasons for deletions. I simply believe that Newland would be such a n00b as to do something like that. I will look at the issue myself later.

Why do you insist on being so fucking vague about it then?

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2006-05-06 06:29pm

Sorry man. I was just being a moron. No need to an asshole.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-05-07 11:19am

Yeah there is, the answer was in your post, you where being a self admitted moron.

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-05-07 12:35pm

And you never did set the record straight re: post deletions, Chitoryu. I am really curious as to why. That is the reason to be an asshole, to put it in your words.

General Deathdealer · Post by **General Deathdealer** » 2006-05-10 11:33am

Or Leia vs. Mecha-Leia: The Battle of Muddy Tokyo!

As long as it is Leia vs. Mecha-Leia with both in her slave outfit.

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2006-05-12 04:37pm

I'm sorry. I was an ass. I wasn't using my oversized brain. Can we all just admit that this is old news?

Einhander Sn0m4n · Post by **Einhander Sn0m4n** » 2006-05-12 05:18pm

chitoryu12 wrote:I'm sorry. I was an ass. I wasn't using my oversized brain. Can we all just admit that this is old news?

So why do you still keep dodging the fucking question!?

chitoryu12 · Post by **chitoryu12** » 2006-05-15 05:06pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
chitoryu12 wrote:I'm sorry. I was an ass. I wasn't using my oversized brain. Can we all just admit that this is old news?
So why do you still keep dodging the fucking question!?

I'm sorry, I forgot WHAT I'M FUCKING DODGING!

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-05-15 05:39pm

Let it die.

He said his piece, he didn't pursue, and he either doesn't remember or doesn't care too...it still follows this particular logic.

IT DOES NOT APPLY HERE.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2006-05-15 10:35pm

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:So why do you still keep dodging the fucking question!?

Einy, if you don't stop fucking vulturing a dead thread, I'm gonna haul you in front of the Senate on every time you've gone overboard. As Ghostie said... LET. IT. DIE.