SW Fighter craft tech questions

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » 2006-05-19 12:10am

I was reading through Wookiepedia, since my knowledge of Star Wars is lacking, and I was reading through the fighter craft used by both the Empire and the Republic(rebel) forces. This then brought me to reading about the various -Wing ships, and the TIE-series of ships.

As I was reading, I discovered that the E-Wing was meant to be a replacement for the A- and X-wings, though the latest X-wing models still looked comparable to the new E-Wing.

However, I was also reading about the TIE series, and the TIE Defender and TIE Avenger appeared to be the pinnacle of that series, culminating with the Defender.

It appears that the Defender is a superior craft to the E-Wing, apart from missle capacity. Are these two crafts comparable in terms of firepower, speed, and other attributes, and if so, which one is superior in which ways? Mind you, I'm not asking "which one would win in a fight," I'm asking which details would be superior per craft.

If the answer is simple and I just didn't look hard enough in Wookiepedia or Google, please give me a reference where I can find the answer.

EDIT: clarified post.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-05-19 12:33am

The Defender is problematic--it appeared in the TIE Fighter games, along with the mass production Avengers (an upgraded version of Darth's TIE Fighter) and has a bunch of attributes that would otherwise convince you it was bad fanwanking. It's got four lasers, two ions, missiles, shields, a hyperdrive, and a tractor beam capable of slowing down an enemy ship in flight... etc.

In TIE Fighter games, the Defender is far and beyond anything you could possibly hope to find in Alliance hands. The only time you ever really need to fight them is defecting Imperials, and to do THAT job you're better off using the Missile Boat. That this is just patently ridiculous.

The E-Wing is similarly wanktastic. A-Wing speed with durability and a weapon system that can rival a B-Wing's in terms of materiel damage. Pretty nasty!

So is the Defender superior? It really depends. I believe the TIE-D only appears in one EU novel, and I'm not sure how well it did, but it came out long before the Empire's demise, so you're comparing a powerful Empire-era weapon versus a Dark Empire-era Alliance craft. But basically, it's kinda like this:

TIE-D Advantages:
Speed (outpaces the A-Wing and is more nimble than the Interceptor--each of which the E-Wing matches, roughly)

Light Gun Rate of Fire (fires a hail of blasts , useful when you only need a few lucky hits to down a ship)

Variety of Weapon Systems (multilaunchers, lasers, ions, tractors, Cloaks!?)

E-Wing Advantages:
Durability (it's a very rugged craft)

Capital Attack Capacity (B-Wing level capital killing power is pretty obscene)

Aerodynamic (like an X-Wing, it can fly in atmosphere effectively, something TIE vessels need to work harder to do)

The Defender's about five times the cost of a normal TIE, which is pricy for a big group like the Empire but doesn't seem to be that out of line for the way the Republic fights. I'm saying the Defender is a much superior fighting craft (having had the chance to zip around in one, they're damn near unstoppable) but that the E-Wing has the sort of rugged reliability that the Rebellion needs to depend on. The Defender's hull wasn't much to write home about, but it had twin shield generators that provided four times as much durability as an X-Wing's. And with all of it's guns linked, missiles linked, and it coming in at a screaming above A-Wing attack velocity, I'd be suprised if the E-Wing could outfight it. Defender can only attack though, it's only good as a space superiority craft.

If you wanted an ideal force, an E-Wing can do anything, but the Defender kills ships better. 1 defender for every 10 E-Wings would let you have enough superiority where you need it, and enough utility anywhere else.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-19 01:40am

By B-wing attack power do you mean 'can't do shit till a capship knocks the shields down', or are you playing too many games?

Frankly, whatever source says TIE-Ds are five times the cost of a TIE must be printed on solid cocaine. I'd imagine they'd be MUCH more expensive than that, given the massive difference in capability between a seat with guns and the most wanked fighter in SW.

Fingolfin_Noldor · Post by **Fingolfin_Noldor** » 2006-05-19 01:41am

A really interesting problem is why the NR/GFFA, after so many decades of existence still hasn't come up with a perfect counter to the TIE-Defender, despite the fact that it's unlikely to encounter a fleet full of them.

Either the authors lack imagination or something. Sigh...

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-05-19 02:01am

Stark wrote:By B-wing attack power do you mean 'can't do shit till a capship knocks the shields down', or are you playing too many games?

Frankly, whatever source says TIE-Ds are five times the cost of a TIE must be printed on solid cocaine. I'd imagine they'd be MUCH more expensive than that, given the massive difference in capability between a seat with guns and the most wanked fighter in SW.

That'd be the Star Wars Databank at Starwars.com

Same with the 'potent as B-Wing' stuff.

And they also seem to say that B-Wings were designed to take on capital ships.

And in this case, those ships it was designed to engage--in groups of course--was the Escort Frigate.

So unless there's a reason why I should consider the Star Wars Databank's information to be extremely low canon, I'm going with what they said. So no, these aren't game-induced ramblings.

Also, it says 'more than' but it doesn't say 'more than six TIE Fighters' or 'More than a Squadron' so it seems like it's five and change.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-19 02:10am

All that and you didn't answer the question! Fantastic. You could have said 'I mean can damage unshielded capships' or 'I mean they kill ISDs by themselves', but noooooo. Obfuscation FTW!

So it's just the SW databank? Excellent, ludicrously low price ignored.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-05-19 02:43am

Stark wrote:All that and you didn't answer the question! Fantastic. You could have said 'I mean can damage unshielded capships' or 'I mean they kill ISDs by themselves', but noooooo. Obfuscation FTW!

So it's just the SW databank? Excellent, ludicrously low price ignored.

Alright, how about Saxton's page? TIE-D costs 300k

And according to him, a TIE-Fighter/ln costs 60k credits.

Math FTW.

As for the B-Wings, they were used to assault Escort Frigates. That would lead me to believe they were actually capable of damaging Escort Frigates... which would also lead me to believe that they could breach the shields of an Escort Frigate, which is a capital ship.

I mean, we could assume that the B-Wings were successful in destroying the Escort Frigates but somehow never damaged their shields, but it specifically makes a point that B-Wings, not cruisers or frigates, were the things used to knock down Escorts Frigates. Torpedoes, afterall, are anti-ship weapons--we never see 'em really used very much, but that's how they're spoken of.

I mean, really, can you give me a situation that would let us believe B-Wings are lone capship killers but yet also not capable of damaging a capital ship with it's shields up? That to me doesn't sound any better than an X-Wing. You shouldn't make up ridiculous ways to disbelieve what is very matter-of-factly stated.

I keep updating this as I find more info. I'm having problems finding much SPECIFIC information about a B-Wing's capability. I found this Star Wars Promo poster showing 3 B-Wings zipping away from an ISD as it suffers a massive explosion. Not exactly G-level canon! Problem is, the B-Wings got cut from the majority of the movie because their odd profile made them hard to see.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-19 03:50am

I bet SWTC didn't get those numbers from the same place you did, no sir! And repeating them makes it less ridiculous, why yes!

I'm sorry, I've never seen anything to suggest fighters can damage fully shielded caps. Call me nuts, but if ARC-170s work *with* capships during battles, the far smaller B-wing isn't going to be an independent threat. Let's not even get into where B-wings keep their huge supply of capship-killing torpedoes.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-19 03:59am

Something "omg starfighters h4x" people never seem to understand, is that if starfighters were so good at killing cap ships, THERE WOULDN'T BE A NEED FOR CAPITAL SHIPS IN THE FIRST PLACE.

All you'd need would be these über fighters and military transports, to achieve the same goals. Since this doesn't happen in SW, and all Rogue Squadron capital ship-killings are a result of game-mechanics being used (Stackpole based his entire fighter-tactics on game mechanics, specifically), this is bunk.

Quadlok · Post by **Quadlok** » 2006-05-19 02:20pm

Stark wrote:I'm sorry, I've never seen anything to suggest fighters can damage fully shielded caps. Call me nuts, but if ARC-170s work *with* capships during battles, the far smaller B-wing isn't going to be an independent threat. Let's not even get into where B-wings keep their huge supply of capship-killing torpedoes.

http://theforce.net/swtc/Pix/Xbrooklyn/Bwing2.jpg

http://www.wizards.com/starwars/images/ ... ighter.jpg

Perhaps I'm just going crazy, but it looks to me like the B-Wing is at least as large as an ARC-170, if not much larger (I apologize for the poor ARC pic, its hard to find a good one, but if you've got the ROTS ICS, you can really see what I'm talking about.)

An escort frigate is not a very big ship anyway, and its puzzling design means that as soon as its shields are the least bit compromised its going to wind up split in half. I have no problem imagining a few dozen B-wings completely annihilating one.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-19 02:25pm

The B-wing is bigger than an ARC, that is true. The question is, does the ordnance it carries match or excede something like the modified TIE shots mentioned above? If the mod TIE could break through the shields of an Imperial battleship, a bigger fighter with more powerful ordnance would be able to do the same, against a smaller destroyer.

But, I guess it still wasn't enough to justify cutting out capital ships for the NR. ;P

EDIT: Maybe the B-wings could penetrate a weakened shield much better than ordinary fighters?

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-19 05:24pm

Really? The ARC seems both longer and more substantial than the cockpit-on-a-stick B-wing. My bad.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-19 05:38pm

On second thought, it might be a close tie:

Seems the B-wing carry some heavier ordnance, at least twice the amount of torps + 3 ion cannons.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-19 05:46pm

And you don't think that's stupid? The ARC has a huge fuselage with room for dedicated ordnance spaces... the B-wing apparently stores heaps of super-torps in it's headlights.

Anyway, YOUR two pics make it look like a B-wing would fit INSIDE an ARC fuselage. Maybe a bit of thin fin sticking out the end, but the B-wing just doesn't look larger to me.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2006-05-19 06:31pm

Is there ANY way to fix the B-wing wanking? Things like the 8 km Executor are easily corrected, since the length is just a number. As far as most stories are concerned, the Executor is "big." But so many stories and reference materials have been made where B-wings are portrayed as these super bombers. Nerfing it to fit in with its stick-thin appearance basically destroys all of this.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-19 06:33pm

I've never bought into the B-wing wanking, but people just point back at the (game-based) reference books, and say 'look, it's got super shields and heaps of super torps' and that's it.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-19 07:17pm

I did admit they weren't that far apart when I actually compared the pics. =/

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-05-19 11:16pm

Supposedly B-wings can take out Neb-Bs, and have the firepower of patrol craft. However, no source says how many B-wings are needed to take out an escort frigate it could be a squadron it could be a wing. B-wings are over 16 meters whereas ARCs are around 12 meters though the ARC is bulkier. However the B-wing carries only the pilot whereas the ARC carries three clones, long-range sensors for recon, supplies to support the crew for days away from a mothership when on patrol, and according to the packaging on the Die Cast toy megaton-firepower resistant shields.

When sources say the E-wing has B-wing level firepower it just means that they can carry a similar number of torpedoes.

Vehrec · Post by **Vehrec** » 2006-05-20 12:53am

The B-wing strikes me as a similar cut to the A-10 warthog in concept. Slow, but durable with tons of room to strap on ammo and a big honking gun to boot. One A-10 is ideal for dealing with enemy ground forces, or you can group them up like what happened in 'Hunt for Red October' when you go hunting for bigger game. That was a rather odd, but inspired use of the plane in that book.

And no, I don't understand where they are keeping the proton torpedos are either. Maybe it's all in the main wing or somthing lined up single file like sandpeople. Plus all the computers for the hyperspace claculations and the targeting system . . .

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-20 01:38am

OR... OR it's fucking bullshit. I've never accepted the Xwing addon 'lolz BWING is teh uber ship killzor ISDz', and without a decent explanation I never will. Sure, they have many guns (although they're split up in a retarded fashion)... that's really it's only good feature. It's got low engine volume, offset guns, offset cockpit, and is way too 'spread out'. It'd be a HORRIBLE fighter in a dogfight. And why do they have super shields? That's right, because it was a videogame addon and the new ship had to be uber.

When I was a kid I thought the front of the central 'block' was a sixpack of missiles, like in Battletech. At least then they would have had a number of large missiles, and not the apparently super-small, super-powerful torps they have now.

PS, the wing-folding thing is retarded.

Comparing the ARC and Bwing based on length is silly. The Bwing has it's ubertorps tucked away in the headlights - the ARC, even with it's extended capability, has far more room to hide theoretical warheads. The idea that ARCs have less shielding than Bwings challenges my understanding of shields and power volumes.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2006-05-20 01:40am

Aren't the circular spots on the main wing marked as torpedo launchers in older diagrams? Being able to launch large volleys of torpedoes at once might help compensate for its other spindly nature.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-20 01:43am

If you're talking about the little inset slot things on the front of the wing, I don't see how that works. Just comparing them to the nearby guns shows they're pretty damn small - and does that mean the whole wing in full of torpedoes?

I agree, it would actually explain the absurd shape of the fighter if it was build around a long strip of torpedoes.

lPeregrine · Post by **lPeregrine** » 2006-05-20 02:00am

Covenant wrote:The Defender is problematic--it appeared in the TIE Fighter games, along with the mass production Avengers (an upgraded version of Darth's TIE Fighter) and has a bunch of attributes that would otherwise convince you it was bad fanwanking. It's got four lasers, two ions, missiles, shields, a hyperdrive, and a tractor beam capable of slowing down an enemy ship in flight... etc.

Easily dealt with by removing the absurd idea that simply because two weapons share the same name, they are the same power. The TIE-Defender gets six lower-power guns, which are each far inferior to the X-Wing's massive lasers. As an anti-fighter focused ship, the TIE-Defender needs the rate of fire of multiple small guns, so the design choice makes sense.

Same with the missiles and tractor beam, it mounts smaller, less powerful versions of them. They're still a useful capability, but not too unrealistic.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-20 02:03am

Of course, I bet you call TIE-D guns small and weak then consider the Bwing guns full power? Not that it really makes any difference, since TIE guns are quite fine at killing fighters, the rate of fire is excellent, and Xwing guns are still worthless against anything serious. I just want to know if that's what you think.

evangelion1 · Post by **evangelion1** » 2006-05-20 02:43am

Stark wrote:Of course, I bet you call TIE-D guns small and weak then consider the Bwing guns full power? Not that it really makes any difference, since TIE guns are quite fine at killing fighters, the rate of fire is excellent, and Xwing guns are still worthless against anything serious. I just want to know if that's what you think. :D

what makes you think Xwing guns are useless against a star destroyer and whatnot think about it if they could sustain a burst of fire long enough then they might be able to break through the shields and damage the hull however i do admit that it would be almost impossible for a Xwing to open fire on a star destroyer and not get blown to pieces by the enemy ships guns and fighters and it would most likely take a few weeks to do so but it could be done