Then who killed 20.000 American servicemen in Vietnam between 1968 and 1972?MKSheppard wrote:Oh bullshit. The VC cadres were completey annihilated during Tet, and when the CIA's Phoenix Program went into effect, we began acting like the Gestapo, and ruthlessly liquidated anyone remotely connected with Communism.
It's kinda hard to build up a 2nd VC force if all of the high ranking leaders who formed the first are all worm food now courtesy of the CIA
Vietnam War, German Army
Moderator: NecronLord
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Patrick Degan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 14847
- Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
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The NVA.Patrick Degan wrote:Then who killed 20.000 American servicemen in Vietnam between 1968 and 1972?MKSheppard wrote:Oh bullshit. The VC cadres were completey annihilated during Tet, and when the CIA's Phoenix Program went into effect, we began acting like the Gestapo, and ruthlessly liquidated anyone remotely connected with Communism.
It's kinda hard to build up a 2nd VC force if all of the high ranking leaders who formed the first are all worm food now courtesy of the CIA
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MKSheppard
- Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
- Posts: 29842
- Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm
Yep. The VC ceased to be an effective fighting force after '68, and they hadphongn wrote: The NVA.
to send NVA regulars down to masquerade as the VC...
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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MKSheppard
- Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
- Posts: 29842
- Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm
We won the Vietnam War in a few short weeks....
http://members.aol.com/dpoole1272/home/lbdays.htm
Operation LINEBACKER II began on December 18, 1972, 3,000 sorties, 11 days, and 40,000 tons of bombs penetrated the most concentrated air defense of the war. President Richard Nixon had turned complete control of the Vietnam war over to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Thomas Moorer on December 14, 1972 with orders "to win this war". As a result of this order Operation LINEBACKER II was executed. Eleven days after the B-52's began this operation, America's involvment in Vietnam was over. Peace talks that had came to a stale mate in October 1972 were resumed on January 8, 1973. Within 30 days after the final bomb was dropped Le Duc Tho and Henry Kissinger reached a final agreement and signed the Paris Peace Accords on January 27, 1973. Within 60 days after the signing 591 American Prisoner's of War were released and returned to the United States.
Before the eleven day bombing campaign was over 26 US aircraft would be shot down by North Vietnam's SA-2 Guideline SAMmissiles. Fifteen of these aircraft were Boeing B-52 Stratofortresses. Thirty-one of the B-52 crewmembers shot down were captured and held as POWs. At the end of the eleven day mission, ninty- three were listed as Missing In Action.Today all but nine of those B-52 men listed as MIA have been returned home.
It took one hour and forty-three minutes for 87 B-52's to taxi, take-off, and become airborne on the afternoon of December 18, 1972 from Andersen Air Force Base in Guam. Later they would be joined by 42 additional B-52 that departed from U-Tapao Royal Thai Airfield near Sattihip, Thailand. Together they would form three attacking waves making this the largest armada of bombers assembled since World War II. Seven targets had carefully been selected for the 129 B-52's concentrate their weapons on. The B-52D's from U-Tapao carried 108, 750-lb bombs. The B-52D's from Andersen AFB were loaded with 66 bombs and the B- 52G's also from Andersen transported 27 bombs. Targets for the first sorties were the Hoa Lac Airfield, Kep Airfield, Phuc Yen Airfield, Kinh No vehicle repair facility, Yen Vien railroad yards, the Hanoi railroad repair facility, and the Hanoi Radio station. Of the 129 B-52s the bombs from 127 of them reached their intended targets. Two B-52's in the first wave, AQUA 02 and RED 03, both B-52G's had problems that prevented them from dropping their ordnance.
Wave One made up of a total 48 B-52s, 21 B-52Ds from U-Tapao, and 27 B-52s from Andersen, 12 B-52D's and 15 B-52G's, reached their first targets at 7:45 PM, local Hanoi time. As SNOW cell unleashed 324 bombs onto the runway at Hao Lac airfield on the southwestern edge of Hanoi the B-52 tail-gunner in BROWN 03, SSgt Samual Turner, shot down a MiG-21, the first in B-52 combat history.
Eighteen minutes later LILAC 03, a B-52D tail number 6768 flying at 38,000 feet, from Andersen was approaching the Kinh No vehicle repair facility to drop its bombs. Fifteen seconds prior to the bomb release point a SAM fired from North Vietnam's SAM Site VN-133. LILAC 03 was damaged by the SAM and was unable to make the post-target turn and dropped from the cell formation and continued to fly south from Hanoi. Despite the damage the B-52D was able to land safely at U-Tapao in Thailand.
Eleven minutes later CHARCOAL 01, a B-52G, tail number 8201, at 34,000 feet, was struck by two SAMs fired from SAM Site VN-119. The SAMs approached and detonated on the aircraft just prior to its bomb release point over the target area of the Yen Vien railroad yards. In less than a minute the bomber nosed over and headed to its final resting place, Kim Anh, Vien Phu province Vietnam. The crew of this aircraft was from Blytheville AFB, Arkansas. Three of the six crewmembers successfully exited the and were captured and held at the Hanoi Hilton by the North Vietnamese becoming the Strategic Air Commands first POWs. Wreckage of CHARCOAL 01 shot down by the North Vietnam's Central Army's 59th Missile Battalion on December 18, 1972 is clearly visable in a pile of aircraft wreckage at the Central Army Museum, 28A Dien Bien Phu Street, Hanoi, Vietnam today.
Wave Two was made up of 30 B-52D's and G's from Andersen. The were scheduled to begin bombing targets at 12:00 midnight Hanoi time. Targets selected for the second wave were the same as three of those struck earlier by the first wave of bombers, the Yen Vien railroad yard, the Hanoi railroad repair yard, and the Kinh No vehicle repair facility. As PEACH 02, a B-52G tail number 8246, flying at an altitude of 38,500 feet began its post-target turn a SAM exploded just off its left wing. The explosion had ripped part of the wing-tip off and tore the fuel tank from under the wing. Two of the engines were also ripped from the bomber. Flames were trailing the B-52 from every hole made by the damage. The aircraft commander was able to keep the bomber airborne long enough to make it back to the saftey provided by the airspace of Thailand. Seven crewmembers successfully bailed out in the vicinity of the Marine base near Nam Phong. Within twenty minutes all of the crew were picked up and flown to U-Tapao. The next day they returned to Guam.
About the same time the crew from PEACH 02 was landing at U-Tapao B-52s that would make up the third and final wave of bombers for the first evening were begining to take to the air. At 2:46 AM local U-Tapao time, ROSE 01, a B-52D tail number 6608, rolled down the runway and climbed out to become part of 51 B-52D's and G's that made up the third and final wave of B-52s to stike Hanoi on December 18, 1972. Twenty-one of these B-52s, all from U-Tapao were targeted against the Hanoi Radio Tower. These B-52Ds were within lethal range of eleven North Vietnamese SAM sites. At 4:56 AM, Hanoi time, ROSE O1, the lead aircraft in the final cell, dropped its 108, 750 lb bombs on the Hanoi Radio Tower. Numerous SAMs were fired at the bombers as they paraded one by one over the target area. The tail-gunners because of their large canope in the B-52D's were calling the SAMs as they broke throught the overcast below. One SAM pasted between the trailing edge of the right wing and the tail of ROSE 01. The gunner radioed to the aircraft commander, "that's close enough..." Within seconds another SAM approached ROSE 01 as it entered its post-target turn. The SAM fired from North Vietnam's SAM Site VN-549 exploded underneath the bomber on the left side. Immediately internal communications were lost in the aircraft. The SAM had blown a hole in the side of the fuselage large enough for the navigator to look out and see the bomb pins hanging from the external bomb rack under the wing. Fire broke out in the forward cockpit. ROSE 01 never made it out of the post- target turn. The crew ROSE 01 began exiting the ill-fated aircraft. Four of the six crewmembers were captured before the sun rose the next morning. The wreckage of ROSE 01 fell to the ground approximately 9 kilometers southwest of Hanoi in the village of Oai Than, Hay Tay province Vietnam.
In January 1996 a joint field activity conducted the United States JTF-FA and their Vietnamese counterparts unearthed from a pond the wreckage of ROSE 01. The remains of the gunner were excavated from the site and are currently undergoing forensic identification at the Central Identification Laboratory at Hickam AFB in Hawaii. Wreckage recovered by the Vietnamese on December 19, 1972 is on display at the Central Army's Air Force Museum located in southwest Hanoi.
One other B-52D, RAINBOW 01, tail number 6583, flying at 34,000 feet was damaged by a SAM as it approached its target the Hanoi railroad repair yard. The RAINBOW cell was within burnthrough range of six SAM sites at the time of its encounter with the SAM. RAINBOW 01 diverted to U-Tapao where it landed safely. During the first evening of Operation LINEBACKER II the North Vietnamese launched 164 SAMs at the B-52 bombers. Of the 129 bombers over Hanoi that night only two were shot down by enemy missiles.
Operation LINEBACKER II began on December 18, 1972, 3,000 sorties, 11 days, and 40,000 tons of bombs penetrated the most concentrated air defense of the war. President Richard Nixon had turned complete control of the Vietnam war over to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Admiral Thomas Moorer on December 14, 1972 with orders "to win this war". As a result of this order Operation LINEBACKER II was executed. Eleven days after the B-52's began this operation, America's involvment in Vietnam was over. Peace talks that had came to a stale mate in October 1972 were resumed on January 8, 1973. Within 30 days after the final bomb was dropped Le Duc Tho and Henry Kissinger reached a final agreement and signed the Paris Peace Accords on January 27, 1973. Within 60 days after the signing 591 American Prisoner's of War were released and returned to the United States.
Before the eleven day bombing campaign was over 26 US aircraft would be shot down by North Vietnam's SA-2 Guideline SAMmissiles. Fifteen of these aircraft were Boeing B-52 Stratofortresses. Thirty-one of the B-52 crewmembers shot down were captured and held as POWs. At the end of the eleven day mission, ninty- three were listed as Missing In Action.Today all but nine of those B-52 men listed as MIA have been returned home.
It took one hour and forty-three minutes for 87 B-52's to taxi, take-off, and become airborne on the afternoon of December 18, 1972 from Andersen Air Force Base in Guam. Later they would be joined by 42 additional B-52 that departed from U-Tapao Royal Thai Airfield near Sattihip, Thailand. Together they would form three attacking waves making this the largest armada of bombers assembled since World War II. Seven targets had carefully been selected for the 129 B-52's concentrate their weapons on. The B-52D's from U-Tapao carried 108, 750-lb bombs. The B-52D's from Andersen AFB were loaded with 66 bombs and the B- 52G's also from Andersen transported 27 bombs. Targets for the first sorties were the Hoa Lac Airfield, Kep Airfield, Phuc Yen Airfield, Kinh No vehicle repair facility, Yen Vien railroad yards, the Hanoi railroad repair facility, and the Hanoi Radio station. Of the 129 B-52s the bombs from 127 of them reached their intended targets. Two B-52's in the first wave, AQUA 02 and RED 03, both B-52G's had problems that prevented them from dropping their ordnance.
Wave One made up of a total 48 B-52s, 21 B-52Ds from U-Tapao, and 27 B-52s from Andersen, 12 B-52D's and 15 B-52G's, reached their first targets at 7:45 PM, local Hanoi time. As SNOW cell unleashed 324 bombs onto the runway at Hao Lac airfield on the southwestern edge of Hanoi the B-52 tail-gunner in BROWN 03, SSgt Samual Turner, shot down a MiG-21, the first in B-52 combat history.
Eighteen minutes later LILAC 03, a B-52D tail number 6768 flying at 38,000 feet, from Andersen was approaching the Kinh No vehicle repair facility to drop its bombs. Fifteen seconds prior to the bomb release point a SAM fired from North Vietnam's SAM Site VN-133. LILAC 03 was damaged by the SAM and was unable to make the post-target turn and dropped from the cell formation and continued to fly south from Hanoi. Despite the damage the B-52D was able to land safely at U-Tapao in Thailand.
Eleven minutes later CHARCOAL 01, a B-52G, tail number 8201, at 34,000 feet, was struck by two SAMs fired from SAM Site VN-119. The SAMs approached and detonated on the aircraft just prior to its bomb release point over the target area of the Yen Vien railroad yards. In less than a minute the bomber nosed over and headed to its final resting place, Kim Anh, Vien Phu province Vietnam. The crew of this aircraft was from Blytheville AFB, Arkansas. Three of the six crewmembers successfully exited the and were captured and held at the Hanoi Hilton by the North Vietnamese becoming the Strategic Air Commands first POWs. Wreckage of CHARCOAL 01 shot down by the North Vietnam's Central Army's 59th Missile Battalion on December 18, 1972 is clearly visable in a pile of aircraft wreckage at the Central Army Museum, 28A Dien Bien Phu Street, Hanoi, Vietnam today.
Wave Two was made up of 30 B-52D's and G's from Andersen. The were scheduled to begin bombing targets at 12:00 midnight Hanoi time. Targets selected for the second wave were the same as three of those struck earlier by the first wave of bombers, the Yen Vien railroad yard, the Hanoi railroad repair yard, and the Kinh No vehicle repair facility. As PEACH 02, a B-52G tail number 8246, flying at an altitude of 38,500 feet began its post-target turn a SAM exploded just off its left wing. The explosion had ripped part of the wing-tip off and tore the fuel tank from under the wing. Two of the engines were also ripped from the bomber. Flames were trailing the B-52 from every hole made by the damage. The aircraft commander was able to keep the bomber airborne long enough to make it back to the saftey provided by the airspace of Thailand. Seven crewmembers successfully bailed out in the vicinity of the Marine base near Nam Phong. Within twenty minutes all of the crew were picked up and flown to U-Tapao. The next day they returned to Guam.
About the same time the crew from PEACH 02 was landing at U-Tapao B-52s that would make up the third and final wave of bombers for the first evening were begining to take to the air. At 2:46 AM local U-Tapao time, ROSE 01, a B-52D tail number 6608, rolled down the runway and climbed out to become part of 51 B-52D's and G's that made up the third and final wave of B-52s to stike Hanoi on December 18, 1972. Twenty-one of these B-52s, all from U-Tapao were targeted against the Hanoi Radio Tower. These B-52Ds were within lethal range of eleven North Vietnamese SAM sites. At 4:56 AM, Hanoi time, ROSE O1, the lead aircraft in the final cell, dropped its 108, 750 lb bombs on the Hanoi Radio Tower. Numerous SAMs were fired at the bombers as they paraded one by one over the target area. The tail-gunners because of their large canope in the B-52D's were calling the SAMs as they broke throught the overcast below. One SAM pasted between the trailing edge of the right wing and the tail of ROSE 01. The gunner radioed to the aircraft commander, "that's close enough..." Within seconds another SAM approached ROSE 01 as it entered its post-target turn. The SAM fired from North Vietnam's SAM Site VN-549 exploded underneath the bomber on the left side. Immediately internal communications were lost in the aircraft. The SAM had blown a hole in the side of the fuselage large enough for the navigator to look out and see the bomb pins hanging from the external bomb rack under the wing. Fire broke out in the forward cockpit. ROSE 01 never made it out of the post- target turn. The crew ROSE 01 began exiting the ill-fated aircraft. Four of the six crewmembers were captured before the sun rose the next morning. The wreckage of ROSE 01 fell to the ground approximately 9 kilometers southwest of Hanoi in the village of Oai Than, Hay Tay province Vietnam.
In January 1996 a joint field activity conducted the United States JTF-FA and their Vietnamese counterparts unearthed from a pond the wreckage of ROSE 01. The remains of the gunner were excavated from the site and are currently undergoing forensic identification at the Central Identification Laboratory at Hickam AFB in Hawaii. Wreckage recovered by the Vietnamese on December 19, 1972 is on display at the Central Army's Air Force Museum located in southwest Hanoi.
One other B-52D, RAINBOW 01, tail number 6583, flying at 34,000 feet was damaged by a SAM as it approached its target the Hanoi railroad repair yard. The RAINBOW cell was within burnthrough range of six SAM sites at the time of its encounter with the SAM. RAINBOW 01 diverted to U-Tapao where it landed safely. During the first evening of Operation LINEBACKER II the North Vietnamese launched 164 SAMs at the B-52 bombers. Of the 129 bombers over Hanoi that night only two were shot down by enemy missiles.
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
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Sea Skimmer
- Yankee Capitalist Air Pirate
- Posts: 37389
- Joined: 2002-07-03 11:49pm
- Location: Passchendaele City, HAB
What the fuck is your point? That third Generation jet fighters and bombers in massive numbers can destroy the North's air defense system after having been able to test out tactics and weapons against it for years? We already KNEW that.
The Germans lack every part that lead to success in 1972 except numbers, they can throw more planes at the system However they will be gunned down with insane ease, beating the NVA forcing it to use more men to guard aircrew POW's is not a viable stratagy.
Furthermore then Germans would have to use bases far closer to the action and would have no carrier support. These will suffer quite heavily from everything from rockets to IL-28's.
The Germans lack every part that lead to success in 1972 except numbers, they can throw more planes at the system However they will be gunned down with insane ease, beating the NVA forcing it to use more men to guard aircrew POW's is not a viable stratagy.
Furthermore then Germans would have to use bases far closer to the action and would have no carrier support. These will suffer quite heavily from everything from rockets to IL-28's.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
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MKSheppard
- Ruthless Genocidal Warmonger
- Posts: 29842
- Joined: 2002-07-06 06:34pm
Well, hell if I know. I was arguing with Phong over AIM aboutSea Skimmer wrote:What the fuck is your point?
Vietnam.....
The thing is, Linebacker II was when we took the gloves off
(short of an all out invasion of the North) and we roundly kicked
their fucking Viet asses all over the place....
The Germans are not going to be bound by the same bullshit
that LBJ did to us....What was that quote: "We can't bomb an
outhouse without presidental authorization..."
The Germans are going to go into this FULL BORE and just
kick the shit out of the NVA and VC in such a brutal way that
it will be whispered fearfully amongst the vietnamese for centuries...
"If scientists and inventors who develop disease cures and useful technologies don't get lifetime royalties, I'd like to know what fucking rationale you have for some guy getting lifetime royalties for writing an episode of Full House." - Mike Wong
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944
"The present air situation in the Pacific is entirely the result of fighting a fifth rate air power." - U.S. Navy Memo - 24 July 1944