Starcruisers and cruisers, starship rates

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-19 06:58pm

I think Defiance is pictured as a Home One ship in the CCG, just like Independence. Since they confirmed Independence being a sister-ship of Home One in the OS's Community Q&A, and noted its appearance in video games and CCG (where they used the HO's model to represent them), then I guess the same would apply to Defiance.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-19 07:09pm

knightwire wrote:The Reef Home type as I am referring to it is the wingless MC-80.

An equal number as the Liberty type eh? I'll have to go back a watch I just don't seem to remember a lot of the Libertys.

There were atleast two Liberty-type cruisers at Endor. The Liberty herself, which got the Deathstar smack down, and then later when the rebel and Imperial fleets were at 'point blank' ranges, there's a scene with a winged Liberty-type going broadside to broadside with an Imperator.

Three Home One types? Thanks. I thought there were two, but I can easily see how there could be three. (and I didn't know the name of the third was the Defiance either.)

You missunderstood. There were three types of Mon Cal cruisers at Endor, not three types of Home One's. Home One being one of the three.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-19 07:24pm

I think Reef Home got identified with wingless Libertys based on nothing. Can't find any visual evidence to what it was, exactly.
Let's just call them "wingless Liberty" from now on, just to be sure. >P

Endor role-call:

Home One:

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/5/5e/Mchomeone2a.jpg

Liberty (winged and wingless):

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/8/83/W ... ngless.jpg

Liberty-model (notice the line where the wings were attached):

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/9/94/MCLiberty.jpg

ROTJ comic cruisers:

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/2/25/M ... ruiser.jpg

Rear shots of all three movie models:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a242/ ... a80a1a.jpg

Notice the extra lower engine on the "wingless", where a part of the lower superstructure is on the Liberty model.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-19 07:58pm

Notice the extra lower engine on the "wingless", where a part of the lower superstructure is on the Liberty model.

Yeah, the winged model has an upper and lower fantail (for lack of a better word) while the wingless one does away with (the wings, duh!) and the lower fantail that makes way for that extra engine.

This one I think is a frame or so after the one you posted. More of the aft end of the wingless cruiser shows.

As for the amount of Wingless Cruisers at Endor, this pic, shows atleast two more wingless cruisers with a possibility of three more in there as well.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2006-05-19 08:08pm

Three models?

Never noticed the third one to be honest till now.

And regarding to the earlier posts on cruisers and destroyers...
Might it not also be regarding what ever the system where ships are being built could also give their own ships a different combat designation of cruisers, heavy cruisers, star cruisers, destroyers etc?

The home systems that had their own star navy might had a different designed starship designation from what the Galactic Empire used in their navy.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-19 08:15pm

Hell, the Hapans had battle cruisers supporting battle dragons! :P

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-05-19 09:22pm

Knife wrote:

You missunderstood. There were three types of Mon Cal cruisers at Endor, not three types of Home One's. Home One being one of the three.

No there were three Home-One class ships at Endor: Home-one, the Independence, and the Defiance. The SW CCG game is explicit, although the card stats are infected with WEG length scaling.

There are in film canon three types of MonCal ships at Endor. If you include the ship's in the ROTJ sketchbook and Behind the Magic, there were several others.

Darth Primus wrote:

The home systems that had their own star navy might had a different designed starship designation from what the Galactic Empire used in their navy.

I would say the scaling of the vessels depends on the scale of the conflicted that they intended for. According that ROTS:ICS both the galactic superpowers the Republic and the Confederacy used "Star" class vessels. While, even prior to the Clone Wars; the Kuat and other core sectors hosted Star Dreadnaughts and Star Battlecruiser scale vessels.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-19 09:36pm

Spartan wrote:Knife wrote:
You missunderstood. There were three types of Mon Cal cruisers at Endor, not three types of Home One's. Home One being one of the three.
No there were three Home-One class ships at Endor: Home-one, the Independence, and the Defiance. The SW CCG game is explicit, although the card stats are infected with WEG length scaling.

You're still misunderstanding. There were three ship classes from the Mon Cals at Endor. Home One class was but one of these classes. Whether or not there were more than one Home One class isn't in dispute.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2006-05-19 09:38pm

Gotcha. Your wording wasn't clear.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-05-19 11:59pm

As to MC ships being called Frigates in the U.S. Navy during the 60s and 70s Destroyer Leaders were called Frigates. In the 80s the U.S. Navy redesignated Destroyer Escorts as Frigates and the old Frigates were designated either Destroyers or Light Cruisers depending on size. Also, frigates during the Age of Sail were cruisers in terms of their roles and in fact the French called them cruisers rather than frigates. So it could be the Rebels are using the term frigate to mean a heavy destroyer or light cruiser which based on their performance is about where they place in the Star- system.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-20 01:46pm

Hmm, after watching RotJ again, with my finger on the slow button, I think I may have to re-think my position. Originally, I'd assumed that the wingless and the Liberty represented the majority classes of Mon Cal ships at Endor.

I assumed that these Mon Cal shipswere wingless Liberty-types. However, with the perspective that you get seeing Akbar on his bridge, shown here, I think that the two ships shown in the pic of the Imperial bridge may indeed be Home One type craft. Add to it, yet another Home One type shown on the other side of the Executor after the SSD's bridge is taken out, shown here, and the possibility of the second craft destroyed by the deathstar being a Home One-type, and you have a total of 4 Starcruiser level ships at Endor.

Now, as far as I can tell, you have atleast 2 Liberty-types at Endor. One, the Liberty, was destroyed by the Deathstar, the other is shown duking it out with a SD at point blank range, shown here. On the wingless Liberty-type, there is definately one, but since one dosen't get destroyed and then they show another one, I can't confirm that the wingless we see in a couple of shots, are not the same ship.

However, there seems to be atleast 3 more unidentifiable Mon Cal ships behind the two Home One-types in the scene on the Executor bridge , shown here,that don't seem to have the wings attached. They could be more Home One-types or escorting wingless Liberty-types.

So we have atleast;

4 Home One types at the battle of Endor
2 Liberty types
1 wingless type (or Liberty sub type)
Perhaps 3 unknown types.

So perhaps when Akbar is saying 'cruisers' he does in fact mean his Starcruisers, while the Liberty-types and the other wingless-type are the escorts for the Cruisers. This would help explain why the rebel fleet was so successful against the Executor, what with atleast 3 Starcruisers pounding it, plus their escorts.

I also noted, that not one Mon Cal ship was destroyed by anything, minus the Deathstar, while atleast two Stardestroyers got taken out by rebel ships. One particularly by a Home One-type Starcruiser, while Akbar is ordering a concentration of all fire power against the Executor, shown here.

Result; the Liberty style Mon Cal craft may indeed be Stardestroyers (perhaps such craft are later retermed Stardefender for political reasons) while the true Mon Cal cruisers are indeed Starcruisers, though at ~3km they're at the lower end of the scale.

While I'm on the issue of the battle, where is the mention of HQ frigate. I was just watching the battle and Wedge says's 'they're heading for the medical frigate.'?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-20 02:25pm

That's the Nebulon-B frigate they're flying towards. The HO is never mentioned as a frigate in the movie. :P

EDIT: I guess this picture I put up on the Wookiepedia, doesn't show a Liberty and wingless side-by-side then? Instead, a Home One and a Liberty?

http://starwars.wikia.com/images/8/83/W ... ngless.jpg

EDITEDIT: Looking at the Marvel adaption, the blocky Mon Cal cruiser seems to be about twice as long as a Nebulon-B frigate. In the greater scheme of things, would this then be a Mon Cal frigate, while the winged and wingless Liberty are destroyers and the Home One battleships (which it was called in at least one source)?

In that case, they would be similar to the makeup of the Confederacy fleets, with Lucrehulk battleships, Providence destroyer/carriers, Recusant light destroyers and Munificent frigates.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-20 03:05pm

EDIT: I guess this picture I put up on the Wookiepedia, doesn't show a Liberty and wingless side-by-side then? Instead, a Home One and a Liberty?

I'm thinking it is a Home One-type.

Photobucket is doing some maintence right now so I can't get in.

The scene that clenches it for me is the shots leading up to the Awing hit on Executor's bridge. This shows the two in question. Notice the escorting SD's, one of which is between the two Mon Cal ships.

The one in your pic here, looks the same as these so I'm going with a Home One-type.

From, this perspective, just prior to the A wing hit, there are two escorting SD infront of the Home One and there is another Mon Cal ship off to the Home One's port side.

These two shots are just seconds apart in the movie, If Home One is one of those ships, then the other ship off to it's side is the same type. The perspective seems right as does the sequence of events. So I'm thinking they are both Starcruisers, not wingless types, and in fact one of those ships is the Home One herself.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-20 03:29pm

Ahhh, now it makes sense. In my pic, it looked like a star was behind the cruiser, shining above it, but in these other identical positions, they're command pods. The Liberty models didn't have anything similar to that. I think you're right! 8D

Lazarus · Post by **Lazarus** » 2006-05-20 05:40pm

Some years ago I picked up a big hard backed book called 'Star Wars Chronicles', and I'm not sure about its canon level (it has behind the scenes stuff in etc). In the book, the winged MC cruiser at Endor is stated as being called the Liberty, is this a mistake, because I'm hearing that the Liberty was wingless?

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-20 06:06pm

We're using the phrases "Liberty" and "wingless Liberty" to seperate the two. ;P

knightwire · Post by **knightwire** » 2006-05-25 11:48am

I hate to disagree with you Knife, but I think the two Mon Cal ships in the picture below are definately not Home One types.

Knife's shot

There are two very distinct bulges on the right side of the hull that exist on the Reef Home model (wingless-Liberty for VT-16) and do not exist on the Home One model.

Reef Home*

Home One

* You can also see there is a small command tower where it appears in the movie shot.

As far as the shot looking out Akbar's bridge Knife, That definately does seem to be the front of a Home One type, but I can't say with certainty. Was this shot before or after the Home One type got destroyed from the DSII? (I suppose well after if the Executor starts falling right after.)

That ship on the right in the shot of the Executor starting to fall into the DSII, could that actually be where Home One is when the shot is taken, or do you think that's a seperate ship?

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-25 06:26pm

I hate to disagree with you Knife, but I think the two Mon Cal ships in the picture below are definately not Home One types.

At the begining of the thread, I thought they were wingless Liberty's too. But judging from the perspective of the two shots (Executor's bridge and the Home One bridge) I do believe both of those are Home One-types.

Notice the bridge towers that I've outlined in yellow. Now take a look at the wingless Liberty-sub type, here, and again here. Plus, since both the wingless and the Liberty are the same model (minus the wings, a ventral fantail and an extra engine) there still appears to be a lack of a command tower on the Liberty shown here or on this one either, and yet another.

There is nothing on the Liberty or it's wingless subtype that looks like a command tower or other projection that could be mistaken for one.

Now if you go off of the two perspectives from the two bridges, Ackbar's view and Piett's view, both have the two Imperators between Akbar's and Piett's view. In Ackbar's view, there is another ship right off to his port, and in the Executor's view, there are two ships of the same class coming in off the port of the Executor.

In Ackbar's view, you can see another ship off on the other side of the Executor and in fall of the Executor seconds later you can see another Home One type (engines around a bulbous stern) and a liberty-wingless (no lower fantail) on the other side of the Executor.

From the perspectives from both bridges, and the bridge towers of the two approaching Mon Cal's, they've got to be Home One types, while a wingless liberty sub type was trailing yet another Home One type on the starboard side of the Executor.

It's possible that the Mon Cal blobs between the Home One types, shown here are wingless liberty sub types escorting the Starcruisers, though.

knightwire · Post by **knightwire** » 2006-05-25 10:23pm

Knife wrote: Notice the bridge towers that I've outlined in yellow. Now take a look at the wingless Liberty-sub type, here, and again here. Plus, since both the wingless and the Liberty are the same model (minus the wings, a ventral fantail and an extra engine) there still appears to be a lack of a command tower on the Liberty shown here or on this one either, and yet another.

There is nothing on the Liberty or it's wingless subtype that looks like a command tower or other projection that could be mistaken for one.

Sure there is. You can see a command tower in this shoton the wingless model. Also if you look at the Liberty (a mirror image of the wingless) hereyou can see there's a stub or something where that command tower was. They probably just scaled down the bridge to that for the Liberty. The wings, engine and fantail are the most easily identifiable changes that were made to the Liberty, but there may have been any amount of tweaking or smaller subtle changes they could have been made.

You can also see a clear shape feature hereof two blisters along the side. Those blisters can be seen on the winglessmodel, but do not appear on the Home One model.

Knife wrote: Now if you go off of the two perspectives from the two bridges, Ackbar's view and Piett's view, both have the two Imperators between Akbar's and Piett's view. In Ackbar's view, there is another ship right off to his port, and in the Executor's view, there are two ships of the same class coming in off the port of the Executor.

In Ackbar's view, you can see another ship off on the other side of the Executor and in fall of the Executor seconds later you can see another Home One type (engines around a bulbous stern) and a liberty-wingless (no lower fantail) on the other side of the Executor.

I think your assuming a large degree of continuity on ILM's part here that may not be there. Those two views, especially Piett's, leave out a lot of space. Also I'm not seeing them matching up apparently as well as you are. It's hard to judge what's what from those shots against each other.

Knife wrote: From the perspectives from both bridges, and the bridge towers of the two approaching Mon Cal's, they've got to be Home One types, while a wingless liberty sub type was trailing yet another Home One type on the starboard side of the Executor.

I took a shot of Home One coming out of hyperspace that's as good a front view as I have found. I copied, flipped and pasted the larger MC from the Piett bridge view and put it next to it. You can clearly seethey are different models.

For me, that's clear enough proof. But... you never know. Just my opinion and if you think differently I'm cool with it. From my perspective (now that I've spent the time to look)

I think I answered my own question posed earlier. I do think the Reef Home type (wingless-Liberty for VT-16

) is more plentiful then the Liberty type.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-25 11:35pm

I took a shot of Home One coming out of hyperspace that's as good a front view as I have found. I copied, flipped and pasted the larger MC from the Piett bridge view and put it next to it. You can clearly see they are different models

Hmm, pretty convincing, I must say.

Though, that would make me have to go back to an earlier argument; in which if those are ~1.2km cruisers, then by the shot from the Executor bridge, they'd appear to be past the escorting SD's, and seconds later when you see the Executor's bridge in flames, those two cruisers are not in frame at all.

Plus, Home One and it's escort still have to be there somewhere. Perhaps they're too 'high' to be seen from that angle, but you can't see those 'wingless' ones from Akbar's perspective which represents a big problem.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-05-25 11:39pm

Is it possible the bridge windows are doing their crazy-SW 'window monitors' thing, where they zoom in, enlarge things, etc? What we see through the window might not be an unaltered view of the space in front of the shit.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-25 11:43pm

Stark wrote:Is it possible the bridge windows are doing their crazy-SW 'window monitors' thing, where they zoom in, enlarge things, etc? What we see through the window might not be an unaltered view of the space in front of the shit.

Which perspective would you be refering to? The picture from the Executor's bridge (which I've used in this thread a half a dozen times) is seconds before the A-wing smashes into it. If the window/screen was indeed some sort of HUD, you'd think it would've magnified the A-wing, yet it's still this tiny dot moving towards them. Hell, even the Officer still noticed it unenhanced.

Besides which, there are still the escorting SD's in the pic too, visable from both perspectives (Akbar's and Pietts).

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-05-25 11:46pm

Which perspective would you be refering to? The picture from the Executor's bridge (which I've used in this thread a half a dozen times) is seconds before the A-wing smashes into it. If the window/screen was indeed some sort of HUD, you'd think it would've magnified the A-wing, yet it's still this tiny dot moving towards them. Hell, even the Officer still noticed it unenhanced.

Actually, as the technology is described in the ROTS novelization (for the Invisible Hand's observation deck windows), such screens can magnify specific objects and ships, to different degrees. If the Executor's viewport was operating in such a manner before the impact, it may not have been trained on the A-Wing, perhaps because it was not percieved as a threat until it was too late.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2006-05-25 11:53pm

Noble Ire wrote:
Actually, as the technology is described in the ROTS novelization (for the Invisible Hand's observation deck windows), such screens can magnify specific objects and ships, to different degrees. If the Executor's viewport was operating in such a manner before the impact, it may not have been trained on the A-Wing, perhaps because it was not percieved as a threat until it was too late.

That's possilbe and I don't discount it, yet that makes the system rather silly, when the Imperial Officer recognized the threat the super uber HUD didn't.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2006-05-26 04:59am

I do think the Reef Home type (wingless-Liberty for VT-16 ) is more plentiful then the Liberty type.

I'm sorry, this just irks me: where did you get the idea that the wingless ships are the same as the Reef Home? I've not seen anything suggesting that. :S