Nemesis Review

[Master of Ossus]

I thought the movie sucked. Badly. I didn't mind the cop-out death of a main character nearly so much as I thought that I would, but the special effects were laughable. I also noticed with annoyance at how they had tried to copy Star Wars in every possible manner. Our friend, Mr. Anderson, will be pleased to see the Scimitar destroyed with exactly the same kind of "ring" around it as was seen around the Death Star and Alderaan. More to the point, things like the corridor battles were fought in a manner identical to ANH (right down to the "Into the garbage chute, fly-boy,"). The fights seemed pointless and terrible. The actions of numerous characters made little or no sense in numerous places. And there were parts of the plot that went nowhere very slowly.

[David]

Notice that since Brent Spiner started writing the story lines it has centered around Data?

[Master of Ossus]

Notice that since Brent Spiner started writing the story lines it has centered around Data?

This one didn't do that as much. In any case, I didn't really care since I found Data to be by far the most interesting TNG character, but you are right as far as your general trend goes. Spiner seems to focus more on Picard and Data than the writers of the series did.

[Uraniun235]

I think the movie is the best of all the TNG movies.

I didn't mind the cop-out death of a main character nearly so much as I thought that I would, but the special effects were laughable.

Please tell us how you would have a main character die.

[Uraniun235]

I have the feeling that Paramount intends to drag a few more million out of Star Trek TNG.

I heard from a friend (amazing credibility, I know) that if Nemesis does well enough, Stewart will sign on for another ST movie.

[Master of Ossus]

I think the movie is the best of all the TNG movies.

I didn't mind the cop-out death of a main character nearly so much as I thought that I would, but the special effects were laughable.

Please tell us how you would have a main character die.

Permanently. I also want them to accomplish something with their death. Look at how Tasha Yar died in "Yesterday's Enterprise." That was a good way to kill a main character. Data's sacrifice seemed pointless and contrived, much like Kirk's poor death in "Generations." Data did not seem to have his general method of bonding with the audience in this film as he had in the series, and during some of the other movies. They spent too little time developing him, and he showed none of the ability to instill emotions in me that he had shown in other instances.

The largest problem I had with Data's death, however, was that it seemed impersonal. Look at how Spock died in Star Trek II. He died to save the ship, but more importantly he died to save his friends. He deliberately chose to sacrifice himself to help others, who were obviously deeply affected by his loss. Geordi wrote off Data the minute that Data gave Troi command of the ship, and no one seemed hurt by the loss of Data at the end of the movie at all. Instead, we see that they are looking forward to the future, instead of being touched by the loss of the past.

Data died for nothing, as it was. I wanted him to die for a reason, and I do not want to give him the ability to come back in another movie, if the cash cow is fat enough to keep ST moving. If he's dead, let him die and move on with the rest of the characters.

[Uraniun235]

I was under the impression Spiner intended for Data to die because he no longer wanted to play Data, given his age.

[Master of Ossus]

I guess another problem I had with Data's death was the inexplicable removal of all of its significance before the plot even began unfolding. The crew is ALREADY breaking up, before the movie even starts. Wouldn't it have been better if Riker and Troi had gotten married, but were staying with the Enterprise? That would have instantly lent power and permanence to Data's death by making it an unexpected shock to the crew. Instead we see that they are already preparing to lose each other, but don't even seem hurt by it in the least. I'm sure that everyone would be happy for Riker, getting his new command and all, but these people are friends. Shouldn't the crew have spent that time reminiscing, instead of looking towards the future? What did you feel like when you left college and high school? I was excited to be moving on, but I was also sorry to see my friends for the last time. I knew that they had their own lives to live, but I also remembered how happy they had made me during my tenure in their lives, and was sorry to be saying good-bye to all of them. The crew of the Enterprise has served together for years, and they should be nostalgic for the "olden days" when they were all working together, or how they all used to live together. A conversation between Picard and Will at the start (if they absolutely had to be leaving, for some reason) that went to the effect of: Riker asks Picard for advice on being a captain. Picard: [smiles] "Do you remember that time when...?" It could have added so much to the movie without costing anything. It would have been far better than the "humorous" interludes with a drunken Worf at the party, or the promised (but thankfully never delivered) nudie scenes on Beta-Zed.

Do you see how the destruction of the crew as a unit and as a friendship had already been established as a foregone conclusion in the opening parts of the movie, and how this weakened Data's eventual demise? If you can see that, then you understand a major and inexplicable flaw of the movie. The writers should have caught this and corrected it ahead of time.

[Master of Ossus]

I was under the impression Spiner intended for Data to die because he no longer wanted to play Data, given his age.

Irrelevent. It is possible to kill off a main character in a respectful and emotionally powerful way, even if the person is having contract disputes (or some other disagreement) with the management. Data's death might have been necessary for real-life reasons, but the writers and actors should still strive to kill the character in a way that will leave fans saddened but satisfied. If you've ever seen M*A*S*H*, you'll remember Radar's good-bye. You'll remember how it demonstrated strength and sadness in everyone at the same time. You'll remember how the other characters in the show struggled for several episodes to cope with the loss of Radar, and struggled with their conflicting emotions about the way in which he left the unit. That was a very effective character-"death." It clearly demonstrated what the character who "died" meant to all of the ones that lived on and continued with the show, and reminded the viewers of what Radar meant to them. Data's death did none of that. It was weakened by the already impending destruction of the bond between the crew, and was further damaged by the introduction of "B-4." It lacked the power it needed to make the movie work properly, because Data's death WAS the defining moment of the movie.

[Uraniun235]

Speaking of "drunk", what the hell was with the Romulan ale at the party? It's supposed to be blue!

There's a certain relief that Data's death didn't overshadow Spock's death. I think TWOK will always be the ultimate Star Trek movie... and I think that's how it should be.

Also, I think there was probably pressure for the movie to end on a 'happy' note, and rightfully so; if Nemesis proves to be the final movie, it would really suck for it to end on a bitter note. Data's death came after the main villain had been defeated; if you spend too long on it, you'll wind up dragging the movie out and ending on an irrelevant note. Think about it; Spock died, then he gets launched, Kirk chats with David, and then the Enterprise leaves. There was no "gosh, how I miss Spock" or "remember when...?" there, and there shouldn't be now.

And if you say "Well, TWOK managed to end on a happy note!", consider that you'd probably have to do something very similar to TWOK to make it happen like that... and then you have criticism that Nemesis ripped off TWOK, rightful criticism.

Finally, it's well past time that the crew started to drift apart. Riker should have left some time ago. Worf... how the fuck did he get back in the first place? I thought he was ambassador to the Klingons. Plus, I bet they have been reminiscing... off screen, where it should stay. We know about their past adventures; we don't want to hear them told again through reminiscence, it's a waste of screen time.

[Uraniun235]

I was under the impression Spiner intended for Data to die because he no longer wanted to play Data, given his age.

Irrelevent. It is possible to kill off a main character in a respectful and emotionally powerful way, even if the person is having contract disputes (or some other disagreement) with the management. Data's death might have been necessary for real-life reasons, but the writers and actors should still strive to kill the character in a way that will leave fans saddened but satisfied. If you've ever seen M*A*S*H*, you'll remember Radar's good-bye. You'll remember how it demonstrated strength and sadness in everyone at the same time. You'll remember how the other characters in the show struggled for several episodes to cope with the loss of Radar, and struggled with their conflicting emotions about the way in which he left the unit. That was a very effective character-"death." It clearly demonstrated what the character who "died" meant to all of the ones that lived on and continued with the show, and reminded the viewers of what Radar meant to them. Data's death did none of that. It was weakened by the already impending destruction of the bond between the crew, and was further damaged by the introduction of "B-4." It lacked the power it needed to make the movie work properly, because Data's death WAS the defining moment of the movie.

No, it's relevant; you're implying that B-4 is a way to bring Data back, which he couldn't be if Spiner is quitting as Data. (which he should; he's definitely getting too old)

[Master of Ossus]

Speaking of "drunk", what the hell was with the Romulan ale at the party? It's supposed to be blue!

There's a certain relief that Data's death didn't overshadow Spock's death. I think TWOK will always be the ultimate Star Trek movie... and I think that's how it should be.

So, you're saying that Nemesis and the new movies never should try to be as good or better than the movies done with TOS cast? Why don't we just give up on making a better SW movie in the future. ESB, RotJ, and AotC never should have tried to be ANH!

Also, I think there was probably pressure for the movie to end on a 'happy' note, and rightfully so; if Nemesis proves to be the final movie, it would really suck for it to end on a bitter note.

DS9 didn't end on a happy note. It ended on a nostalgic note. That's what was needed in Nemesis. If this is the final movie, then it should be a movie in which everyone is reminded of why TNG was worth watching, and of which characters they invested hundreds of hours in following.

Data's death came after the main villain had been defeated; if you spend too long on it, you'll wind up dragging the movie out and ending on an irrelevant note. Think about it; Spock died, then he gets launched, Kirk chats with David, and then the Enterprise leaves. There was no "gosh, how I miss Spock" or "remember when...?" there, and there shouldn't be now.

Obviously, symbollically, it would be applying to all of the TNG cast who are all leaving. Spock's death obviously deeply affected the surviving members of the crew. They respected his wishes in firing him for the Genesis project, but they also realized that they had lost a friend.

And if you say "Well, TWOK managed to end on a happy note!", consider that you'd probably have to do something very similar to TWOK to make it happen like that... and then you have criticism that Nemesis ripped off TWOK, rightful criticism.

What do you mean? End it on a NOSTALGIC note. And if people compare you to TWoK, you should be taking that as high-praise, instead of criticism. You yourself commented earlier that TWoK was the best Trek movie ever. Why wouldn't you want something to be compared to that?

Finally, it's well past time that the crew started to drift apart. Riker should have left some time ago. Worf... how the fuck did he get back in the first place? I thought he was ambassador to the Klingons. Plus, I bet they have been reminiscing... off screen, where it should stay. We know about their past adventures; we don't want to hear them told again through reminiscence, it's a waste of screen time.

Why were the reminiscing off screen? The audience doesn't get to share in the memories that they have of each other from throughout the series? I've invested hundreds of hours of my life in those characters. I feel that I personally deserve to be able to see them off. Moreover, building characters is not a waste of screen time when you are trying to establish the effects of the loss of one of those characters. And are you seriously trying to justify the crew's unwillingness to care about Data by explaining that they did it all off-screen? Shouldn't Picard have felt bitter-sweet about what B-4 sang at the very end? He SMILED. He almost LAUGHED at it. His FRIEND just died, and he doesn't even seem to care. And if they REALLY didn't want to talk about something we've already seen, they could have talked about something more personal that we didn't see during the run of the show. It may have been better that way, anyway. Maybe Picard once bailed Riker out of a jam he was in with his relatives. Maybe Troi once helped Picard with a funny situation that was going on. It didn't really matter, but we needed to see the bond between the characters in the show. We didn't see it during the movie, and that IS a flaw.

[Uraniun235]

What do you mean? End it on a NOSTALGIC note. And if people compare you to TWoK, you should be taking that as high-praise, instead of criticism. You yourself commented earlier that TWoK was the best Trek movie ever. Why wouldn't you want something to be compared to that?

There's a difference between "as good as" and "ripping off". I'm not paying to see the TNG crew rehash TWOK.

So, you're saying that Nemesis and the new movies never should try to be as good or better than the movies done with TOS cast? Why don't we just give up on making a better SW movie in the future. ESB, RotJ, and AotC never should have tried to be ANH!

TNG will never be as good as TOS, and to expect otherwise is hopeless optimism.

Shouldn't Picard have felt bitter-sweet about what B-4 sang at the very end? He SMILED. He almost LAUGHED at it. His FRIEND just died, and he doesn't even seem to care.

Taking the Enterprise to Earth all the way from the Neutral Zone, especially in it's damaged state, probably took weeks, and it looked like they were already mostly DONE with repairing the E-E (else I doubt Picard would be using an office on board it) which also probably would have taken weeks... you'd expect someone like Picard to have gotten over it by then.

Moreover, building characters is not a waste of screen time when you are trying to establish the effects of the loss of one of those characters. And are you seriously trying to justify the crew's unwillingness to care about Data by explaining that they did it all off-screen?

Yes. I am. If you had your way, the movie would have dragged on another half-hour after Shinzon had been killed; too long. This movie isn't about the crew breaking up, nor should it have been; it is about the last adventure they shared together, and not about the adventures of the past.

It didn't really matter, but we needed to see the bond between the characters in the show. We didn't see it during the movie, and that IS a flaw.

We didn't need to see it in the form of reminiscence and nostalgia. Who the fuck wants to hear about Riker ramble on about Data watching a kettle of water boil?

The audience doesn't get to share in the memories that they have of each other from throughout the series?

Gee, that's funny, I don't remember that happening in Star Trek 2, or 6. Oh wait, that's because it didn't.

Frankly, I think Nemesis blew all the other TNG movies out of the water.

I've invested hundreds of hours of my life in those characters. I feel that I personally deserve to be able to see them off.

Boo-hoo. Go watch "All Good Things" again, then.

[seanrobertson]

Just a few random thoughts sorta addressed to everybody:

1--I liked the movie overall.

2--I thought the FX were actually very good. I only didn't
really like the way the radiation looked as it was initially
generated; the double helix it formed looked just like
a model of DNA!

3--The phaser fights were getting old and *did* feel
like a rip-off of ANH.

4--Planar rings coming from a target didn't start with
the SE Trek VI started that nonsense among popular
sci-fi IIRC.

5--Data's "death" had about .0001% the impact it should
have. Bad, bad move there.

6--I'm still thinking.

[Mad]

I also noticed with annoyance at how they had tried to copy Star Wars in every possible manner.

Anyone else notice that Reman falling down a bottomless pit? I guess the Enterprise has them, too, now.

And I blame Picard for Data's death. Data's plan was probably to transport over, set a phaser on overload or something, then beam himself out. Instead, he was stuck having to save Picard because Picard ignored Data.

[Sovereign]

I thought the movie sucked. Badly. I didn't mind the cop-out death of a main character nearly so much as I thought that I would, but the special effects were laughable. I also noticed with annoyance at how they had tried to copy Star Wars in every possible manner. Our friend, Mr. Anderson, will be pleased to see the Scimitar destroyed with exactly the same kind of "ring" around it as was seen around the Death Star and Alderaan. More to the point, things like the corridor battles were fought in a manner identical to ANH (right down to the "Into the garbage chute, fly-boy,"). The fights seemed pointless and terrible. The actions of numerous characters made little or no sense in numerous places. And there were parts of the plot that went nowhere very slowly.

When Praxis was destroyed in Star Trek 6 it had a Ring Explosion, the Death Star did not have a Ring explosion until the Special Editions came out...

[Master of Ossus]

I thought the movie sucked. Badly. I didn't mind the cop-out death of a main character nearly so much as I thought that I would, but the special effects were laughable. I also noticed with annoyance at how they had tried to copy Star Wars in every possible manner. Our friend, Mr. Anderson, will be pleased to see the Scimitar destroyed with exactly the same kind of "ring" around it as was seen around the Death Star and Alderaan. More to the point, things like the corridor battles were fought in a manner identical to ANH (right down to the "Into the garbage chute, fly-boy,"). The fights seemed pointless and terrible. The actions of numerous characters made little or no sense in numerous places. And there were parts of the plot that went nowhere very slowly.

When Praxis was destroyed in Star Trek 6 it had a Ring Explosion, the Death Star did not have a Ring explosion until the Special Editions came out...

What's your point? Anderson will be pleased to see that, as it will doubtless serve to "confirm" his theory about the MCR effect in some utterly unexplained and completely inexplicable manner.

[Darth Wong]

Anything which is ambiguous is always assumed to support whatever Darkstar is selling. Oldest trick in the book. Does he think it fools anyone but the terminally stupid?

[Captain Kruger]

It serves the Legion of Brain Dead Trekkies(TM) who think like him. You know, the kind you deal with all the time.