Your Enemy Is Your Ally in 50 Years

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2006-05-21 02:07am

What's with this PC staple of mainstream scifi where once hardened enemies are play-nice respectable members of the "the good side's" society after about 50 years or so? Gimmie a break. The SW "Legacy" comics apparently have a Vong JEDI in it??

You know, some enemies simply can't be forgiven. I don't recall seeing any former Nazis on the Enterprise as the security officer. Anyone recall the Vong are responsible for destroying planets and enslaving and altering people? No w all is forgiven, this Vong doesn't hate Jedi, can use the Force, and has no trouble using tech like a lightsaber?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2006-05-21 02:12am

After a while you think many writers even care about this? Honestly after seeing what writers pull(and no not just SW...) to make sure a fantasy universe has their own personal stamp, they pull some wild and crazy shit.

So many of them want to shoehorn their personal wants that soon we'll have Vong in the time of the OR. These were actively warning them about their wayward non Force brethern and Palpatine will betray them and the leader of this branch will be exiled and in vowing vengeance, it's son will be either Nom Anor or Tsong Lah...or whatever.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-05-21 02:13am

Yes, I sometimes find the tendencey for overly easy forgiveness in the SW universe disturbing. First they let unrepentent Imps in the Senate, then Palleon become Supreme Allied Commander, and now a Vong Jedi. What's next, repreations for blowing up the first DS?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-05-21 02:13am

Though the concept of a Vong Jedi is ridiculous on numerous levels, as you pointed out, I don't see why an entire species should be condemed for the actions of some of its constituents in the past. I mean, even when the Vong were still winning their war of conquest, it was obvious that not all of them were in total agreement with their leadership, and indeed, a great number were alienated and disenfranchised. To simply discount them all is stupid; should I blame every Japanese person I see for the atrocities of WWII? Every German for the Holocaust? Without knowing the background of this particular character, I don't think such a judgement can be made.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-05-21 02:14am

They like to make former enemies into allies so they can portray them allying against new enemies, because they lack the creativity necessary to make compelling stories without inventing new enemies.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2006-05-21 02:14am

Well, I would think it would depend on how they were enemies. Yeah, we're not all nice with the Nazis, but Germany isn't our enemy 50 years later. So really I would think it would depend on the circumstances of being enemies.

Weren't some Imperial officers and soldiers granted amnesty after the war or something?

Though, Vong Jedi, that's just fucked up.

Pablo Sanchez · Post by **Pablo Sanchez** » 2006-05-21 02:32am

That's actually a more difficult question than one might think. If a person isn't associated with the events that led to the bitterness it's certainly possible for their service of an evil enemy to be "forgiven"--especially if they're useful. Wernher von Braun is a good example: although he was a Nazi party member and responsible for the development of Hitler's V-weapons, von Braun got a free pass and was working for the Americans less than a month after V-E day.

My thoughts on the Vong Jedi specifically:
[1] If he were not at all associated with the Vong atrocities, then I could see him being brought over, especially in light of the touchy-feely New Age bullshit that a lot of EU writers lay on the Jedi. (what happened to the badass space samurai?)
[2] If he were at all associated with the Vong atrocities, there had better be a very compelling reason for him to be brought over.
[3] A Vong Jedi? WTF? I thought none of them were connected with the Force? And did they all leave the galaxy on their magic living planet deus-ex-machina thing? WTF?

Tychu · Post by **Tychu** » 2006-05-21 02:36am

Lord Poe wrote:What's with this PC staple of mainstream scifi where once hardened enemies are play-nice respectable members of the "the good side's" society after about 50 years or so? Gimmie a break. The SW "Legacy" comics apparently have a Vong JEDI in it??

You know, some enemies simply can't be forgiven. I don't recall seeing any former Nazis on the Enterprise as the security officer. Anyone recall the Vong are responsible for destroying planets and enslaving and altering people? No w all is forgiven, this Vong doesn't hate Jedi, can use the Force, and has no trouble using tech like a lightsaber?

to be frank. did you finish the NJO? The GFFA granted the remaining Vong sanctuary on the planet Zenoma Sekot. These Vong were the oppressed. After the warrior class was destroyed it became clear that the rest of the Vong really were just "normal" you would say. Sure there would be a few bad bugs hanging around but the masses really were just "normal". Plus the Force works in mysterious ways. With once the force takith away the force giveith back. The force was stripped from the Vong because of their cruelty. With over a centurary passing from the NJO the force may have came back to the good Vongses. And there you go a force sensitve Vong

Oh and Nazis are not seen as can be good today, mainly because there are still some to preach Nazi and anti-simitic slogans in the soccer stadiums around Europe.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2006-05-21 03:45am

Personally, I believe the entire race still got off too easily. After what they did to Coruscant alone, they should have been exterminated down to the very last infant.

Shotgun > Vong child.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2006-05-21 03:59am

IIRC it was Sekkot's(sp?) parent that stripped the Vong from the Force. It's no great leap in logic to imagine that exposure to live on a similar planet can renew the Force Link.

However the idea of Vong becomming a jedi is laughable. Even the lower slave classes had an pathalogical hatered of any kind of technology. Even Nom Anor, an athiest opportunist if ever there was one, felt revulsion at having to use technology. Even Anakin Solo's Lightsaber which used Yong Biotech for the focusing crystal was taboo to them.

The picture i saw of the Vong Jedi showed a ritually scarred warrior. The Vong religion and the Jedi one do not and cannot mix.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2006-05-21 06:22am

Admiral Johnason wrote:Yes, I sometimes find the tendencey for overly easy forgiveness in the SW universe disturbing. First they let unrepentent Imps in the Senate, then Palleon become Supreme Allied Commander, and now a Vong Jedi. What's next, repreations for blowing up the first DS?

Frankly, letting former Imperials into the senate was not only neccesary but just logical.

The majority of these officials formed the bulk of the government then and for a Republic desperately trying to reestablish war and order, you need them. Especially since in the kind of decentralised government of the Empire, you really can't hang Imperial policies on everyone.

FTeik · Post by **FTeik** » 2006-05-21 06:37am

Aside from the Vong not being Force-sensitive (at least the last time i checked), why not? Not that i want something like this to see in the EU, but why can't Vong and Jedi mix? The Vong revere live, their lower castes almost worship the Jedi, ect. ...

thejester · Post by **thejester** » 2006-05-21 08:21am

Lord Poe wrote:What's with this PC staple of mainstream scifi where once hardened enemies are play-nice respectable members of the "the good side's" society after about 50 years or so? Gimmie a break. The SW "Legacy" comics apparently have a Vong JEDI in it??

You know, some enemies simply can't be forgiven. I don't recall seeing any former Nazis on the Enterprise as the security officer. Anyone recall the Vong are responsible for destroying planets and enslaving and altering people? No w all is forgiven, this Vong doesn't hate Jedi, can use the Force, and has no trouble using tech like a lightsaber?

Yeah, next thing you know the US Government will employ ex-Nazis to rebuild the German government, economy, intelligence services and armed forces!

Post by **NecronLord** » 2006-05-21 08:39am

Tychu wrote:to be frank. did you finish the NJO?

Can you blame him for not doing so? I certainly can't

Plus the Force works in mysterious ways. With once the force takith away the force giveith back. The force was stripped from the Vong because of their cruelty.

What the fuck? WHAT THE FUCK? Who did this force stripping, because, if the Force supposedly did it through its will, I'll be... insulted.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2006-05-21 08:47am

It doesn't even make sense. Sith Lords like Palpatine and Vader perform all sorts of atrocities for kicks and there's not so much as a hint of any of them ever being exiled from the Force or anything like that.

000 · Post by **000** » 2006-05-21 08:49am

Vong Jedi? Since when? All I recall is speculation that one of the new Sith is a Vong.

Ar-Adunakhor · Post by **Ar-Adunakhor** » 2006-05-21 08:54am

NecronLord wrote:
Tychu wrote:to be frank. did you finish the NJO?
Can you blame him for not doing so? I certainly can't
Plus the Force works in mysterious ways. With once the force takith away the force giveith back. The force was stripped from the Vong because of their cruelty.
What the fuck? WHAT THE FUCK? Who did this force stripping, because, if the Force supposedly did it through its will, I'll be... insulted.

Uh yeah... supposedly the Vong lost the ability to touch the force because of their entire race turning to the Dark Side, and they just "lost the ability". I beleive the Ratakan Empire in KotOR also lost their ability to use the force in a similar way. Though I think that might have something to do with their force-powered machinery taking on a Dark Side fueled life of it's own and sucking it from them. The authors/writers tend to all leave that part pretty hazy.

Perhaps whichever author introduced that concept had played KotOR and intended the Vong to have had it sucked from them in the same way? Meh, I am probably giving the authors too much credit for "research" though.

Edit: It is also implied that the force itself is what stripped the Vong of their power. I don't remember any exact quotes or anything, though. It might have been that so much "Dark Side power" was around that the force just "broke" for the Vong... I really really tried just erasing all this from my mind though. If you want I could look it up. I beleive it is in the Edge of Victory duology.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2006-05-21 09:19am

The Rakatan's were Force-blind but I can't remember anything saying they were entirely outside of it like the Vong.

Ar-Adunakhor · Post by **Ar-Adunakhor** » 2006-05-21 09:28am

Crazy_Vasey wrote:The Rakatan's were Force-blind but I can't remember anything saying they were entirely outside of it like the Vong.

Ah yes, that's right... perhaps it is a question of magnitude, but I doubt it.

Looks like the Vong either had their sensitivity stripped from them by the force itself, or it just "broke". How... stupid. *sigh*

Mr. T · Post by **Mr. T** » 2006-05-21 09:59am

In real life it's not that odd for their to be constantly shifting alliance structures, even after long wars between various powers. Just look at the constantly shifting alliances in the European state systems starting from the 1600's all the way to the end of WW1. Maintaining a balance of power for your own survival was always deemed more important to national interests than anger towards another state for some wrong done in the past.

Civil War Man · Post by **Civil War Man** » 2006-05-21 11:20am

Ar-Adunakhor wrote:I beleive the Ratakan Empire in KotOR also lost their ability to use the force in a similar way. Though I think that might have something to do with their force-powered machinery taking on a Dark Side fueled life of it's own and sucking it from them.

IMHO, the Rakatan plague mentioned in KOTOR had something to do with blinding them to the Force.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2006-05-21 11:24am

Looked it up on wookiepedia, the Vong lost their force sensitivity after the destruction of their living planet homeworld, Zonama Sekot's parent. Presumably those Vong living on Sekot could slowly regain force ability.

One of the Shapers was also able to regain force powers by experimenting on himself.

So there are options for the Vong to regain force sensitivity.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-05-21 02:46pm

PainRack wrote:
Admiral Johnason wrote:Yes, I sometimes find the tendencey for overly easy forgiveness in the SW universe disturbing. First they let unrepentent Imps in the Senate, then Palleon become Supreme Allied Commander, and now a Vong Jedi. What's next, repreations for blowing up the first DS?
Frankly, letting former Imperials into the senate was not only neccesary but just logical.

The majority of these officials formed the bulk of the government then and for a Republic desperately trying to reestablish war and order, you need them. Especially since in the kind of decentralised government of the Empire, you really can't hang Imperial policies on everyone.

I thought most of the new Senators were former governors and mid-to-high level officers who had openly supported the Emperor.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2006-05-21 03:10pm

I thought most of the new Senators were former governors and mid-to-high level officers who had openly supported the Emperor.

I was under the impression that it was people of those positions who were specifically banned from holding high office. Indeed, there were elements in the NR, foremost among them Leia, that wanted to prevent Imperials of any rank from gaining status, even if they turned a blind eye toward the Rebellion during the civil war.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2006-05-21 04:39pm

thejester wrote:
You know, some enemies simply can't be forgiven. I don't recall seeing any former Nazis on the Enterprise as the security officer. Anyone recall the Vong are responsible for destroying planets and enslaving and altering people? No w all is forgiven, this Vong doesn't hate Jedi, can use the Force, and has no trouble using tech like a lightsaber?
Yeah, next thing you know the US Government will employ ex-Nazis to rebuild the German government, economy, intelligence services and armed forces!

For a moment I was about to mention Erich von Manstein, but then I realized that was just sarcam. Hard to tell sometimes.

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