Self Segregation

[Stravo]

I noticed at work this week that we have a larger number than usual minority candidates for attorneys among our summer associates. At first I was delighted. Finally a little diversity in the mostly white crowd. What I also noticed right away was that the minority summers immediately gravitated to each other, hung out together in the law library, went out drinking and dinner together, etc.

Now I have no illusions as to how minority friendly my firm is, many of you have heard the stories of behind closed doors racist comments, etc.

However these kids just started working here. They've had no reason to feel frozen out or segregated. They've chosen to hang with each other and sort of create their own little clique.

I have a problem with this because while it may seem easier for them to hang with each other, etc. it also makes it extremely easy for the powers that be to marginalize them. If they're never attending firm functions or when they do they're tightly bunched together, in essence circling the wagons socially, why should the partnership extend a hand and try to include them if they themselves don't want to be included?

I found it to be a self defeating situation for these kids. You need to get out there and mingle. You form the brown front or the black alliance in the office be prepared to always be on the fringes and never with the go getters, etc. Its a sad but true statement that you have to play the game on their terms not yours.

Anyone experience similar situations in the workplace where people segregated themselves in some way absent outside pressure? Am I being too hard on these kids? Are they not seeing the big picture?

[Darth Wong]

Even when I was living in a redneck town of 6000 people, I had coworkers confide to me that after a while, they completely forgot that I wasn't white (a fact that was unfortunately manifested in them making racist remarks in my presence as if I was a fellow white person, but I digress). I don't understand why minorities would feel the need to self-segregate; it's stupid and casts a poor reflection on your entire race by implying that you're either racist yourselves or you are afraid to get out and mingle with everyone else.

PS. What particular race were these new hires, or did they cut across the whole spectrum?

[Stravo]

Even when I was living in a redneck town of 6000 people, I had coworkers confide to me that after a while, they completely forgot that I wasn't white (a fact that was unfortunately manifested in them making racist remarks in my presence as if I was a fellow white person, but I digress). I don't understand why minorities would feel the need to self-segregate; it's stupid and casts a poor reflection on your entire race by implying that you're either racist yourselves or you are afraid to get out and mingle with everyone else.

PS. What particular race were these new hires, or did they cut across the whole spectrum?

We have three blacks, two hispanics and 1 pakistani woman. That's huge for a class that usually has literally a token person of color or two at most.

Seems that we've been getting slammed by some of our larger clients who by Federal law have to maintain a certain level of diversity including among the people they hire (lawyers for example) and our litigation teams are nortoriously short of females with nary a black or brown face in sight. So we've been losing out on some cases because we simply can't meet some of our clients' quotas on 'diversity'

This created a situation where a huge case we would lose out on because of our lack of dversity prompted staffing solely based on diversity status absent any look at anyone's abilities or credentials. I was disgusted with that little misadventure as were others and I think this summer class is the partnership's attempt at trying to diversify our firm.

I'd like to add that the self segregation seems to go down in levels to. The black summers tend to hang out with each other and the hispanics with themselves and the Pakistani woman is floating between cliques, seemingly settling in with the hispanics at the last function.

As a minority myself working at this place it bothers me to see that. I realize to many people I 'pass' but that never stopped me from hanging out with the guys after work, or chilling at the country club at an outing. You just have to play in their world for a while and as you pointed out Mike, suddenly you're one of them.

[Zero]

People gravitate towards what's familiar. For the majority of blacks, blacks are more familiar. The same is true of most hispanics and asians, too. I've been around white people most of my life, so to me, white people are familiar. It's just the way people are. I do think it has negative effects, because it often seems to lead to a self-defeating attitude among some minority groups, but there's not really a lot to be done for it.

[Admiral Johnason]

I have noticed this as well in my travels. Back in High School, I noticed that groups tended to form arounf race, although most never actually noticed this or thought about it.

It probably comes from shyness in childhood. A kid will go to those that it feels are most like it out of a need to form groups for social interaction. This is probably purely unintentionall and can span a whole range of characteristics (height, gender, weight, intelligence, and race.) Unfortunetly, in an area where racism is common, this tendency may not fade away with time as someone grows older due to a lack of social understanding. Therefore, this arises from a need to have both a group and conformity for a child, but should fade with age unless there is a problem.

For the record, this is just the best answer I could think of based on what I have learned and observed.

[Darth Wong]

We have three blacks, two hispanics and 1 pakistani woman. That's huge for a class that usually has literally a token person of color or two at most.

Seems that we've been getting slammed by some of our larger clients who by Federal law have to maintain a certain level of diversity including among the people they hire (lawyers for example) and our litigation teams are nortoriously short of females with nary a black or brown face in sight. So we've been losing out on some cases because we simply can't meet some of our clients' quotas on 'diversity'

This created a situation where a huge case we would lose out on because of our lack of dversity prompted staffing solely based on diversity status absent any look at anyone's abilities or credentials. I was disgusted with that little misadventure as were others and I think this summer class is the partnership's attempt at trying to diversify our firm.

The fact that they're hired on quotas is not exactly going to bring them respect from the more senior members of the organization, but it's nevertheless an opportunity to prove themselves, and they should be taking advantage of it.

I'd like to add that the self segregation seems to go down in levels to. The black summers tend to hang out with each other and the hispanics with themselves and the Pakistani woman is floating between cliques, seemingly settling in with the hispanics at the last function.

That seriously strikes me as childish behaviour. I do not automatically experience a feeling of kinship with somebody else just because he's Asian.

As a minority myself working at this place it bothers me to see that. I realize to many people I 'pass' but that never stopped me from hanging out with the guys after work, or chilling at the country club at an outing. You just have to play in their world for a while and as you pointed out Mike, suddenly you're one of them.

Indeed, and as my example proves, you don't even have to look vaguely white. You just have to mingle with the guys, prove yourself as a competent worker and a smart, well-informed guy who's a decent conversationalist, and you're OK. It's also good to jump at any opportunity to go do something outside work with the rest of the guys, even if it's as simple as a tradition of Friday lunches at a local bar and grille. It's as if some of these kids need counseling on how to fit in at the workplace.

[wolveraptor]

They've actually done a couple of documentaries and studies* showing that the same thing happens in highschools. It's especially salient at lunch, when you can see entire tables of singular ethnicities.

*1.
2.

[Darth Raptor]

Are they aware that they were pretty much hired solely because they're minorities and your firm had to fill those stupid diversity quotas?

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that's part or most of the reason they keep to themselves. If they're only there as a PR stunt, they probably feel segregated by default- not because you or your coworkers have been treating them badly, but merely by the nature of their employment.

[Stravo]

Are they aware that they were pretty much hired solely because they're minorities and your firm had to fill those stupid diversity quotas?

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that's part or most of the reason they keep to themselves. If they're only there as a PR stunt, they probably feel segregated by default- not because you or your coworkers have been treating them badly, but merely by the nature of their employment.

There's absolutely no reason for them to think that. We kept that pretty hush hush in particular from incoming summer associates because we're trying to woo them to come aboard after all.

This happened day one and has not ceased in over a week. The white summers (both male and female) have taken to the lifestyle just fine. The one female asian summer we have fits in like a glove and does not just solely hang with the other asians in our office.

These guys on the other hand circle the wagons, go out to dinner together, drinks, etc.

And even if they felt segregated they're supposed to be showcasing themselves too in order to get an offer from us. Granted we probably won't turn any of them away unless they're just horrifically bad but that's no excuse for them to isolate themselves. This is their chance to shine. If you don't feel comfortable or like the white corporate structure then WHY come on board in the first place?

[Darth Raptor]

Do you think it would help to talk to them or would that be against policy?

Judging by the information at hand, I would wager that they're merely doing it instinctively. Subconscious tendencies aren't known for their inherent rationality.

[Stravo]

Do you think it would help to talk to them or would that be against policy?

Judging by the information at hand, I would wager that they're merely doing it instinctively. Subconscious tendencies aren't known for their inherent rationality.

Actually the minority attorneys are considering taking them out to lunch or dinner and suggesting what they should be doing with this oppurtunity, opening up a discussion to see how they feel. At the same time some of us feel that we may be jumping the gun and don't want them to see it as a race issue right off the bat. I'm taking a hands off approach for now. Let the far wiser and more experienced deal with this for now.

[Darth Wong]

Do you think it would help to talk to them or would that be against policy?

Judging by the information at hand, I would wager that they're merely doing it instinctively. Subconscious tendencies aren't known for their inherent rationality.

If they preferentially self-segregate, that's not "instinct"; that's social conditioning. Someone has taught these people to preferentially associate within their race, and they fully realize that they're doing it.

[Darth Raptor]

If they preferentially self-segregate, that's not "instinct"; that's social conditioning. Someone has taught these people to preferentially associate within their race, and they fully realize that they're doing it.

Wrong word. I don't mean it's innate- IIRC studies show that humans have no intrinsic behaviors in regards to ethnicity. I'm not so sure that they "fully realize" what they're doing though. Depending on their background, the conditioning may not have been that overt.

At any rate, that's probably the best approach. The firm shouldn't worry about it becoming a race issue because it already is (for whatever reason). I still wouldn't conclude that they're oblivious to their placeholder status. They may have looked around them at the other new hires and put 2 and 2 together.

[Count Dooku]

I've noticed this in school, a lot. The minorities on campus tend to strongly gravitate towards each other, but there are always exceptions to the rule. I'm white, and the only four people I hang out with aren't white - two asian, one is latino, and the other is black. Racism is, in my opinion, an incredibly ignorant stance; but don't be fooled, white people aren't the only ones who can be racist. I had a teacher my freshman year who wore a black power shirt that read, "Our enemy is clad in white, even when he is naked". How she got that job, and was allowed to wear that shirt, I don't know. If you watched that big march on Washington this year, that same slogan was uttered and repeated several times by the croud of tens of thousands of blacks.

Just to let you know, I am NOT racist, but I hate using the term African American. I don't actually know anyone from Africa, but I do know black people; and I'm not called European American, I'm called white. People sometimes mistake my mention of black people, as racist - it's not.

I'm also extremely bothered by the race double standard. I COP called me a white boy when he was giving me a parking ticket (year I double parked). His EXACT words were, "get this white boy's information". If that had been uttered by a white cop to a black person, there'd probably be a lawsuit. Again, I'm not racist - I'm just pissed off about double standards.

[bilateralrope]

Just to let you know, I am NOT racist, but I hate using the term African American. I don't actually know anyone from Africa, but I do know black people; and I'm not called European American, I'm called white. People sometimes mistake my mention of black people, as racist - it's not.

I'm not really a fan of the "African american" term, partly because of the Africans I've known, almost all of them have been white (all from South Africa). That is probably because I never ask where someone is from, and the South African accent is noticable.

Partly because I've never known of anyone to use the term "african american" except on american TV shows. But I am living in New Zealand.

Though when I think about my group of friends, almost all of them are white. I'm not sure why that happened, but it has.

[LaCroix]

Actually color-seperation is rather universal.

With our horses, there is a stron thendency for that behavior, too.

Friendships usually are between horses of similar appearance.

The icelandics seperate from the arabians, the black ones from the white ones.

We like those best who look like ourselves. Sad thing, but a natural thing

[dworkin]

I'ld suspect behavioural patterns and people's innate preference for symmetry. One of the most basic symmetries is reflection.

Where instinct begins and learned behaviour ends can be a bit fuzzy, especially since you learn most basic behaviours from your parents.

Of course, it could be culture. When you report racial clumping what could be actually happening is cultural clumping. People tend to clump in their own cultural groups because they share topics which they can talk about, be familiar and comfortable with.

eg Stick a few New Zealanders in a large group and they tend to clump to discuss the rugby. It's a shared topic (or meme) almost all Kiwis have.

[Turin]

Anyone experience similar situations in the workplace where people segregated themselves in some way absent outside pressure? Am I being too hard on these kids? Are they not seeing the big picture?

I don't think this problem is neccessarily limited to younger people, either. I work at an architecture firm that has managed to build a fair reputation (in the local architecture community, that is) as a firm that gives minorities and women a fair shake. And this reflects in our hiring practices... I'd estimate that a third of our architectural staff are ethnic minorities and probably a third are women (this in an industry where 1/10th of the students in my graduating class were ethnic minorities and 7% were women). Minorities and women have made it into the upper levels of the firm in similar ratios (with the exception of the very oldest group of ancient white male owners who are all retiring). While not an ethnic minority, I do consider myself fairly aware of the subliminally racist attitudes of others and I don't see that in my office. And I've never heard racist talk among my co-workers either in or out of the office in the 7 years I've been here.

But despite what seems like it should be a reasonably welcoming atmosphere for minorities, I definitely notice a degree of self-segregation going on, and not just with younger hires. We'll hire a new black "project architect" (a middle-management level sort of fellow with a good deal of experience), and it seems like there is automatic gravitation towards hanging out with the other black architects in the office. And it does end up being self-limiting -- it's the few who don't self-segregate who tend to do well in the office and move up the ranks.

The explanation that comes to mind is that many minorities have had the unfortunately opportunity to work in places that were hostile to minorities, and so this "circling the wagons" becomes a self-defense mechanism -- even though it ends up being a self-destructive mechanism once in an environment that doesn't require it.

[Ghost Rider]

I've seen this most of the time in neighborhoods. Take your classic Korean neighborhood(having lived there once for an apartment). It is literally a slice of Seoul. And it is extremely self defeating, because they literally did nothing except reach a place that uses dollars instead of Wons.

When I was in college, no one questioned my race except after a long bit. The funniest being when they drove me thorugh the neighborhood, they would ask "So do they accept you, even if you're not one of them?". That said a lot more to me how much people think of these communities then not.

[The Jester]

Anyone experience similar situations in the workplace where people segregated themselves in some way absent outside pressure? Am I being too hard on these kids? Are they not seeing the big picture?

My classes are composed primarily of Chinese, Ethiopians and Kenyans. Each of these groups tend to socialise only amongst themselves. I would say that language is the main contributor to this segregation as each group shares a common language and they're obviously more comfortable speaking in a language in which they are more fluent. I do notice that those who speak better English do tend to socialise a little more with other groups.

The Chinese, on the whole, are the worst offenders (though it's worth pointing out that the majority of the Chinese are also girls and form the majority of the female population of each of the classes). They try to keep a low profile, avoiding any attention whenever they can, and also display very low confidence in their abilities (language speaking or otherwise). I would say that a general shyness (which seems pervasive amongst most Chinese girls) coupled with a foreign language environment and the presence of a large group which is familiar (same gender and same language) tends to weaken any desire to interact with other ethnic groups. If you were to isolate them from each other, I would say that the need and desire to socialise would make them more confident and they would be more willing to interact with others, but since they are so many, they will favour the familiar and tend to "circle the wagons" by presenting a language barrier.

One thing that really bugs me though is when I'm trying to socialise with a group and they have a tendency to favour their native languages when speaking to each other, despite the fact that I'm present and clearly trying to participate in the conversation. How rude it is seems completely lost to them.

[kheegster]

My classes are composed primarily of Chinese, Ethiopians and Kenyans. Each of these groups tend to socialise only amongst themselves. I would say that language is the main contributor to this segregation as each group shares a common language and they're obviously more comfortable speaking in a language in which they are more fluent. I do notice that those who speak better English do tend to socialise a little more with other groups.

The Chinese, on the whole, are the worst offenders (though it's worth pointing out that the majority of the Chinese are also girls and form the majority of the female population of each of the classes). They try to keep a low profile, avoiding any attention whenever they can, and also display very low confidence in their abilities (language speaking or otherwise). I would say that a general shyness (which seems pervasive amongst most Chinese girls) coupled with a foreign language environment and the presence of a large group which is familiar (same gender and same language) tends to weaken any desire to interact with other ethnic groups. If you were to isolate them from each other, I would say that the need and desire to socialise would make them more confident and they would be more willing to interact with others, but since they are so many, they will favour the familiar and tend to "circle the wagons" by presenting a language barrier.

One thing that really bugs me though is when I'm trying to socialise with a group and they have a tendency to favour their native languages when speaking to each other, despite the fact that I'm present and clearly trying to participate in the conversation. How rude it is seems completely lost to them.

China is one of the most racially and culturally homogeneous societies around, so it's not surprising that Chinese people in general, especially those who have not travelled much beyond China, are not very aware of the social niceties involved in interacting with other cultures.

[ArmorPierce]

I have the same segregation going on in college but it's not purely based on race. It's mostly hispanic and people that weren't from middle class and up neighborhoods but are not gangsta wannabes. Yes, I do immediately feel a kinship with other hispanics if I'm in a room with strangers because we share something in common immediately and when I'm in a room filled with middle class and up people I may feel a little uncomfortable because there is immediately a disparity and differences marked. Childish? Yes

[Metatwaddle]

I've seen this quite a bit, actually. I saw it in high school, where there were maybe seven black girls in a high school of 250 people and they all sat together at lunch.

And then I saw it in college with a bunch of ethnically Chinese students. My friend Dianna invited me to eat dinner with a bunch of her friends, who were all Chinese or Chinese-American (probably first-generation, judging from their fluency in Chinese). With the exception of Dianna and one guy I knew from my math class, everyone was speaking Chinese and not really noticing I was there. Later I learned that my friend Susan, who is also Chinese-American and speaks Chinese, felt socially estranged from the other Chinese(-American) students because she had so many white friends.

The incident with the Chinese students especially surprised me, because the Chinese-American kids I knew in high school - most of whom I knew because they took lessons from my piano teacher - were very friendly and polite, if not all that talkative. They always seemed pretty socially adept to me. They didn't self-segregate too much, and they spoke English except to their parents.

[Darth Wong]

China is, unfortunately, a rather insular society, and has been for centuries.

[wolveraptor]

My classes are composed primarily of Chinese, Ethiopians and Kenyans. Each of these groups tend to socialise only amongst themselves.

Is it ignorant to ask how the hell you can differentiate between Ethiopians and Kenyans?