Interesting study on absense of fathers during childhood

[Metatwaddle]

As for the effect on lesbians wanting to adopt children, there's a difference between "father" and "father figure". If one of the partners takes on the "traditional" role of a father, then I don't see what the problem is.

Out of curiosity, how would you define the "traditional" role of the father?

[Stravo]

As for the effect on lesbians wanting to adopt children, there's a difference between "father" and "father figure". If one of the partners takes on the "traditional" role of a father, then I don't see what the problem is.

Out of curiosity, how would you define the "traditional" role of the father?

The more 'masculine' role. Whether that be breadwinner/head of household type or any other permutation of what we tradiotionally view as male. A child must be exposed to both aspects of a relationship with parents to be able to relate better to each in the future.

[Darth Wong]

As for the effect on lesbians wanting to adopt children, there's a difference between "father" and "father figure". If one of the partners takes on the "traditional" role of a father, then I don't see what the problem is.

Out of curiosity, how would you define the "traditional" role of the father?

Personally, I don't think that a lesbian "father figure" is even a remote substitute for a proper father figure, which is a male. Part of the father figure's job is to establish a role model for the behaviour of males in both their individual conduct and the way in which they should relate to others; how the fuck could a lesbian do that, no matter how "butch" she is?

[Zero]

As for the effect on lesbians wanting to adopt children, there's a difference between "father" and "father figure". If one of the partners takes on the "traditional" role of a father, then I don't see what the problem is.

Out of curiosity, how would you define the "traditional" role of the father?

Personally, I don't think that a lesbian "father figure" is even a remote substitute for a proper father figure, which is a male. Part of the father figure's job is to establish a role model for the behaviour of males in both their individual conduct and the way in which they should relate to others; how the fuck could a lesbian do that, no matter how "butch" she is?

It could be claimed that the more important aspect of having multiple parental figures is the observation of what should be a good relationship between rational adults, which serves as a model for our interactions with people later in life.

Until a study is done on lesbian couples and gay couples with adopted children, both points are just personal oppinions with no specific backing by data.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, let's engage in the politically correct fantasy that there are no real differences between males and females, so all relationship and parenting issues should be discussed in a completely gender-blind manner.

[Pick]

I think that lesbian couples should also present their children with a positive male role model, if only so the kid can understand what a good male person is like. That can even be a trusted family friend. I practically grew up with a family friend as a second dad (who was my math teacher in 9th grade, to boot!) I think even that experience could be a considerable boon to a growing child as opposed to other influences guiding all of the child's perceptions.

[Zero]

Yes, let's engage in the politically correct fantasy that there are no real differences between males and females, so all relationship and parenting issues should be discussed in a completely gender-blind manner.

All I was doing was pointing out your lack of evidence. I don't think that lacking a positive male role model is good, but until there's actual evidence to support this position, it's pure conjecture, idle speculation based on personal experiences which don't necessarily apply to all situations, or even a majority of them.

As Pick pointed out, there can be other positive role models, such as uncles/aunts, grandparents, and close family friends. It isn't as clear-cut as you claim it is.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, let's engage in the politically correct fantasy that there are no real differences between males and females, so all relationship and parenting issues should be discussed in a completely gender-blind manner.

All I was doing was pointing out your lack of evidence. I don't think that lacking a positive male role model is good, but until there's actual evidence to support this position, it's pure conjecture, idle speculation based on personal experiences which don't necessarily apply to all situations, or even a majority of them.

As Pick pointed out, there can be other positive role models, such as uncles/aunts, grandparents, and close family friends. It isn't as clear-cut as you claim it is.

Read the fucking opening post, you stupid asshole. This entire thread was started in response to a study that presents exactly the evidence you're asking for: that kids do better in a family with an involved father. If you're going to say that you can substitute any "father figure" you want for the father, then you have to provide evidence, dipshit.

Don't give me this "you haven't provided any evidence" retort when the whole thread is a response to a piece of evidence.

[Covenant]

Yes, let's engage in the politically correct fantasy that there are no real differences between males and females, so all relationship and parenting issues should be discussed in a completely gender-blind manner.

All I was doing was pointing out your lack of evidence. I don't think that lacking a positive male role model is good, but until there's actual evidence to support this position, it's pure conjecture, idle speculation based on personal experiences which don't necessarily apply to all situations, or even a majority of them.

As Pick pointed out, there can be other positive role models, such as uncles/aunts, grandparents, and close family friends. It isn't as clear-cut as you claim it is.

It's a tough issue. Most people are unwilling to discuss it in purely objective ways--the people who throw the most invective around are the same kids who are poisoning their kid's brains with this family values bullshit that inevitably involves hating people and believing the entire material world is a vast conspiracy to test their faith and trick them into BURNING IN HELLFIRE FOREVER. I really resent those folks, they really took a lot of liberties with us when we were kids. What right do they have to scare me into beliving things anyway?

Kids need good male and female parenting rolemodels so that they know how to be good male and female parents later. They need to know why it's not okay for daddy to hit mommy, or what a boyfriend or girlfriend should act like. People need to understand how to interact, and they learn a lot of that from parents. Single or gay or lesbian parents can raise good kids, but being unmarried or being a lesbian does not exempt one from needing to expose your kids to positive male figures and talking to your kid about what a Dad is, just like gay folks need to tell their kids about Moms. That or Grandma should.

People can eventually re-learn these things, so a loving relationship is always more important than a heterosexual, married one. A single parent who can discipline and care for their kid well is going to produce better kids than a couple who fights and drinks too much to help their kids with studying.

[l33telboi]

As Pick pointed out, there can be other positive role models, such as uncles/aunts, grandparents, and close family friends. It isn't as clear-cut as you claim it is.

Read the fucking opening post, you stupid asshole. This entire thread was started in response to a study that presents exactly the evidence you're asking for: that kids do better in a family with an involved father. If you're going to say that you can substitute any "father figure" you want for the father, then you have to provide evidence, dipshit.

Don't give me this "you haven't provided any evidence" retort when the whole thread is a response to a piece of evidence.

Although, from reading the first post we don't really know anything more about the family dynamics in these cases then the fact that it hasn't got a "caring, loving father."

So if the test was done on a family where there is basically just the one female who the child is in contact with on a daily basis then Zero has a right to speculate that other very close family could 'fill' the role of the father.

A link to the article would be rather nice though, or at least a little more info.

[Spin Echo]

I think that lesbian couples should also present their children with a positive male role model, if only so the kid can understand what a good male person is like. That can even be a trusted family friend. I practically grew up with a family friend as a second dad (who was my math teacher in 9th grade, to boot!) I think even that experience could be a considerable boon to a growing child as opposed to other influences guiding all of the child's perceptions.

The two lesbian couples with kids that I have known both have made concerted efforts to have positive male role models in their children's lives. Anyone know whether this is common practive? I didn't know either couple well, but I can only assume that those women didn't feel that simply having a two parent family could nullify the need for positive male influence for their kids.

[Solauren]

This kinda makes me worried about the girl i know that just had her second kid, without a father in the picture at all

Granted, the first kid's father ran out on her while she was pregnant for another woman

She now feels it's unnessacary to have one, and had a second kid.

Hopefully, her kids are exceptions to the rule

[Lagmonster]

Yes, let's engage in the politically correct fantasy that there are no real differences between males and females, so all relationship and parenting issues should be discussed in a completely gender-blind manner.

The best example of this that I have ever seen, and it's still far from perfect, is a lesbian couple who makes exclusive use of Big Brother-style organizations who will provide a person to act as father figure for a young child.

[l33telboi]

Yes, let's engage in the politically correct fantasy that there are no real differences between males and females, so all relationship and parenting issues should be discussed in a completely gender-blind manner.

The best example of this that I have ever seen, and it's still far from perfect, is a lesbian couple who makes exclusive use of Big Brother-style organizations who will provide a person to act as father figure for a young child.

Providing people to act like a father? There's just something so profoundly wrong with that.

[Zero]

Yes, let's engage in the politically correct fantasy that there are no real differences between males and females, so all relationship and parenting issues should be discussed in a completely gender-blind manner.

All I was doing was pointing out your lack of evidence. I don't think that lacking a positive male role model is good, but until there's actual evidence to support this position, it's pure conjecture, idle speculation based on personal experiences which don't necessarily apply to all situations, or even a majority of them.

As Pick pointed out, there can be other positive role models, such as uncles/aunts, grandparents, and close family friends. It isn't as clear-cut as you claim it is.

Read the fucking opening post, you stupid asshole. This entire thread was started in response to a study that presents exactly the evidence you're asking for: that kids do better in a family with an involved father. If you're going to say that you can substitute any "father figure" you want for the father, then you have to provide evidence, dipshit.

Don't give me this "you haven't provided any evidence" retort when the whole thread is a response to a piece of evidence.

I had misread the OP. I thought the study only included either male-female couples or single mothers. Or maybe it wasn't a misreading so much as an assumption. I concede.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Yes, let's engage in the politically correct fantasy that there are no real differences between males and females, so all relationship and parenting issues should be discussed in a completely gender-blind manner.

The best example of this that I have ever seen, and it's still far from perfect, is a lesbian couple who makes exclusive use of Big Brother-style organizations who will provide a person to act as father figure for a young child.

Providing people to act like a father? There's just something so profoundly wrong with that.

Oh yes, it's sooo horrible for people to volunteer to be mentors for children.

[l33telboi]

The best example of this that I have ever seen, and it's still far from perfect, is a lesbian couple who makes exclusive use of Big Brother-style organizations who will provide a person to act as father figure for a young child.

Providing people to act like a father? There's just something so profoundly wrong with that.

Oh yes, it's sooo horrible for people to volunteer to be mentors for children.

Well i sure as hell wouldn't like to find out when i grow up that my 'father' has been a normal everyday joe getting payed to spend time with me when i was young. And i quite honestly couldn't see myself getting money from acting like a father to some strangers kid, the whole notion is just weird.

But then again, it's only an opinion, and we seem to have a lot of those.

[Zac Naloen]

Well i sure as hell wouldn't like to find out when i grow up that my 'father' has been a normal everyday joe getting payed to spend time with me when i was young. And i quite honestly couldn't see myself getting money from acting like a father to some strangers kid, the whole notion is just weird.

But then again, it's only an opinion, and we seem to have a lot of those.

Kids in the big brother programme KNOW these guys aren't their dad. They are guys who volunteer to mentor a boy or girl without a father figure. Nothing more.

Involving things like days out in the park playing football and that sort of thing, the child knows what is going on.

[Broomstick]

Well i sure as hell wouldn't like to find out when i grow up that my 'father' has been a normal everyday joe getting payed to spend time with me when i was young.

Big Brothers/Big Sisters are strictly volunteer - except when the pseudo-sibling pops for admission to some event. Changes the dynamic immensely.

Also, there's no pretense these folks are the kids' fathers/mothers. They are meant to be an adult mentor/role model/positive influence. That is all. (And if done well, it's also quite a bit)

[Sofia]

The more 'masculine' role. Whether that be breadwinner/head of household type or any other permutation of what we tradiotionally view as male. A child must be exposed to both aspects of a relationship with parents to be able to relate better to each in the future.

Now that it's not uncommon for a woman to earn as much or more as her husband, to say that "masculine" and "breadwinner" are one and the same is anachronistic. I agree with Darth Wong and others that a child should have a male mentor so they'll learn what a good man is, but the only requirement for "a good man" is that they treat others with respect and are productive members of society, not that they are necessarily heads of household or breadwinners.

[Vyraeth]

I don't believe you need a father to turn out socially normal or without psychological defects, you need a dedicated single mother and a male role model.

And as the child of a single parent, I can say that I have some experience with my belief. There are certainly awkward moments when you don't have a father (for instance, I recall back when I was around 7 or 8 there was a "father and sons" dinner for Boy Scouts), and they'd certainly be easier if there was a father present, but you can get what a father provides through a strong extended family, and through a single mother who actually cares about the development of their child.

Not to mention, there's something to say for the bond between a mother and son that develops when it's just two of you in life. I've always had a deeper sense of maturity then my peers (for better or worse) because my mother and I counted on each other to get through the thick and thin. She made sacrifices so I could go onto higher education (like college, which'll I'll be attending next year), and she essentially put the ball in my hands and made me aware of this.

Now, I don't mean to turn this into a personal momento, but the point I wish to get across is that unless I'm an exception (and that's certainly possible), you don't need a "biological father" to raise a child. A male figure with a good head will suffice. In my case, it was a brother back from the Army, baseball coaches, and a few church figures (and I guess, the occasional romance of my mother), for other people, it may be different.

I'm sure that the kids who had problems in that study had single parents who cared the least.

And lastly, the individual who tried to pruport that one of the weaknesses in a single parent setting is the single parent being an often corrupt autocraft, I think that's a hasty assumption. My mom was certainly an autocraft, but a corrupt one? I don't think so. She taught me to think for myself, she's a deeply religious Christian, and even today I question my faith (partly because of this website).