Grand 40K Quantification Thread

[Rawtooth]

(about equal to a .50 cal gun in my estimation, disregarding the explosive effect.)

Minor nitpick, boltguns are .75 cal. Page 11, 4th Ed. Space Marine Codex.

[SirNitram]

(about equal to a .50 cal gun in my estimation, disregarding the explosive effect.)

Minor nitpick, boltguns are .75 cal. Page 11, 4th Ed. Space Marine Codex.

He's not talking about the shells calibur, he's talking about the effect on the target.

[Falkenhayn]

Note: Black Admiral also mentioned that the novels "Grey Knights" and "Iron Hands" both mention boltguns having a recoil that would break a normal human arm (a Grey Knight's boltgun in the first example, and Iron-Father Gdolkin's boltpistol in the second example)

If we can get the quotes and guesstimate the mass of the round (I'm guessing 50 grams to 100 grams probably) the velocity of the round could be estimated (hundreds of m/s low-end I'm guessing, again) and its approximate KE (about equal to a .50 cal gun in my estimation, disregarding the explosive effect.)

As an aside: I've read on wikipedia entries for 40K that a lasgun is supposedly capable of taking the limb (arm/leg) off of an unarmoed human being in one shot. Is there a source for this that anyone can corroborate? If so it might be a calcable event.


Edit: someone mentioned accecleration figures for starships.. if you have them, post the details and we can work that out.. and then maybe come up with some corroborating nova cannon calcs.

Edit again: White Rabbit did a bombardment cannon calc here

Sombody who has the Eisenhorn omnibus readily available should be able to pin down this instance I'm referencing here. It's in the first chapter of Malleus.

Succinctly put, Eisenhorn fires a bolt pistol into a cyborg-witch who had pinned him to the ground. She massed 400 kg and was physically thrown off of and away from him.

[Falkenhayn]

Ask ye search function, and ye shall recieve.

Essene Solar Radiation data for shield calcs and the aforementioned instance, complete with citations

[Connor MacLeod]

[quote="Chaos space marines Codex,. page 9 (2003 edition) - (an excerpt from the novel "Execution Hour)"]
Mesmerised, the Despoiler watched as the planet below entered its final death throes. Its oceans had boiled off into space hours ago, laying bare the broken and dried expanses of once hidden sea beds. Everywhere, bright lines of fire criss-crossed the planets surface; rivers, lakes, entire oceans of molten magma flowing up through the gaping, bleeding rents in the planetary crust as the planet itslef began to break apart. The whole southern hemisphere was ablaze, covered in magma as the planet's molten heart bled out of the continent-sized open wound that the despoiler's planet killer weapon had burned into it. Giant earthquakes shook the planet from pole to pole, forming and then reforming its burning topography in an ever changing series of different, fiery visions of hell. The planet's biosphere was gone - its oxygen rich atmosphere had ignited at the first firing of the Planet Killer's awesome weapons system - and Abbadon assumed that all life on the world was now extinct. PErhaps a few had survived the initial firestorms that had scoured clean the surface, hiding in shelters deep below the ground, but nothing could have survived the resultanmt seismic catastrophe as the Planet Killer's coruscating energy beams tore apart the planetary crust and ripped deep into the underlying rock strata, finally cutting through into the planet's molten core.[/quote]

Several points of calcable interest:

1. - Only a few things hint directly at the firepower of the Planetkiller. The ability to crack the crust of the planet, completely removing the biosphere, the "continent sized wound", and the "ignited" atmosphere all point to firepower in the 1e10-1e11 megaton range (about the estimated firepower from Mike's planet killers page for the Eclipse SSD.) That this is implied to have occured in a fairly short timeframe suggests the sustained firepower is not much less than the above value.

Of more direct notice is the fact that the planet's oceans vaporized, and were boiled off "into space" - not only is this indiactive of vaporization level energies (~3e27 joules) but also of enough energy to evacuate the entire oceans (and probably the atmosphere with it) - around 8.5e28 joules of energy. (prior error on my part, I forgot to halve the estimate as partt of the KE equation.)

2 - a "continent sized" open wound, through which the magma flows. Again, similar to the description of what happened to Savavaen. What is worth noting is twofold: one, the description of an "open" wound suggests that the volume of mass in the hole was evacuated outwards violently, and 2.) the evident absence of substantial amounts of ejecta blocking Abbadon's sight of the planet. The latter is particularily noteworthy as it suggests the bulk of the volume was ejected high up into the air (quite probably at escape velocity). As previously calculated in another example, the energy to evacuate the core and mantel of a continent-diameter hole would require some 3e31 joules, and the crust would require some 6e28 joules.

3 - the timeframe as noted above to achieve all this is stated as "hours" (it took at least 2 hours to boil off the atmosphere into space, and longer before the planet actually blew up.), whereas Savaven took about approximately an hour. As I do not have the novel, I am uncertain as to whether this excerpt is describing Savaven's demise, or another planet. (I would presume the latter.) In any event, we can derive a few sustained firepower estimates. As I have previously defined some lower limits before, I will focus more on upper limits (for the lower limits based on timeframe, divide the upper limit values by 12 - ie they would be approximately an order of magniutude less.)

Assuming 2 hours (7200 seconds):

- 8.5e28 joules + 3e27 joules (vaporization and evacuation of atmosphere) ~9e28 joules total. Over a 2 hour timeframe, this is a sustained firepower of 1.25e25 watts. (This would closely correlate with the ability to rapidly "ignite" the atmosphere and crack the crust of the planet in a very shortt period of time.)

- for the 3e31 "ejecting the mantle and core out at escape velocity" figure, over a 2 hour timeframe, the sustained output is 4.2e27 watts.

- Using the 2e32 joule "mass-scattering" threshold for an Earthlike planet (note: again, the planet's mass was not scattered immediatelly, and the described results point to a technobabble procecss rather than brute force bombardment.) Nonetheless, assuming a 2 hour timeframe the sustained firepower is about 2.8e28 watts, upper limit.


[quote="Chaos space marines Codex,. page 9 (2003 edition) - (an excerpt from the novel "Execution Hour")"]
"Warmaster," bleated a hunchbacked heretic tech-priest thing, shuffling forward to bow before the Despoiler. "The planet's core is beginning to break up, ,causing unpredictable and powerful fluctuations in its magnetic field." It pasued, twin worm-tongues nervously flicking out to lick at canker-eaten lips. "Perhaps it would be wiser to order the vessel back to a point beyond the area of danger."[/quote]

Note the description of the core "beginning to break up" - arguably if the planet had been bombarded for hours with enough energy to scatter its mass, it should have technically begun to "break up" awhile ago (especially since one assumes they ejected a substantial portion of the crust out at escape velocity!). This tends to argue against brute force "mass-scattering. via DET bombardment.

Also of note: Evidently it is believed that the detonation of the planet (unknown velocity) would represent a danger to Abbadon's fleet.

[Connor MacLeod]

Some stuff on Imperial Guard numbers

The Legions continue to pose a terrible threat to the Imperium, and almost every system within 500 light years of the Eye of Terror is home to an Imperial presence of one form or another. This presence ranges from small listening posts staffed by a handful of tech-adepts and efended by a single platoon of Guardsmen, to the frontier worlds of the Cadian Gate where millions of men are under arms, entire continents are fortified and Imperial Navy battlegroups form impenetrable blockades. To live on these worlds is to be schooled in the art of war from infancy, and entire planetary populations stand ready for mobilization at the first sign of an incursion through the Cadian Gate.

The defenses surrounding the Cadian Gate are tested more each year. Lonely obsevation stations circling barren worlds train their machine spirit guided augurs on the Eye of Terror, ever watchful for the smallest sign that the next Black Crusade is coming. Upon Cadia and a hundred other frontier-fortress worlds, billions of soldiers avert their sight from the baleful light of the Eye as it dominates the night sky of every world in the entire cursed region.

One of two ways to interpret this:

1.) each of the 100 "fortress worlds" has billions of troops... which places numbers for a small number of Imperium worlds in the hundreds of billions. Extrapolate from this into the trillions/quadrillions of troops (Which IIRC is what is impiled by Rogue Trader)

2.) billions of troops for all 100 worlds. Still dealing with many trillions of Guardsmen.

The total strength of the Chaos warfleets cannot be calculated - ships believed to have been lost in the Warp may appear centuries later in the service of the Chaos Space Marines. Some ships turn renegade, corrupted by the subtle machinations of Chaos Gods. Other vessels are buitl either within the Eye of Terror or at rogue planets in the Segmentum Obscuras. The Gothic War gave no more than an indication of the total strength of the Chaos Fleets, representing those owing alleigance to Abbadon alone. In total the Imperial Navy is certainly larger but it is spread across the galaxy whereas the enemy can concentrate their strength in the EYe of Terror before hurling themselves at the Cadian Gate. There are other ways out of the Eye but it is extremely difficult to get a larrge fleet through without detection or risk of loss. Prior to the start of the Gothic War, three years of carefully planned raids were needed to silence enough Imperial monitoring stations to make Abbadon's feints believable even before the main attack was launched.

Chaos fleet size is not known, but inferred to be smaller than the IoM (if fleet sizes for Chaos are knonw, it might provide a lower limit on IoM naval strength, and IoM woul dprovide an upper limit on Chaos naval strength.)

On every one of the million and more worlds that make up the Imperium there exist bodies of armed men. From the smallest garrison to the most populous Fortress-world guarding an entire sector, warriors gather and train.

...

The Imperium of Man is driven by war. Upon thousands of worlds, a billion warriors strive for nothing more than slaughter.

Note that if we took "a billion warriors" over thousands of worlds, this might imply Guard numbers well into the high billions/low trillions.

As an aside, the Implication is that the monitoring stations have a very long range capability into the EoT, possibly FTL.

[Connor MacLeod]

Ask ye search function, and ye shall recieve.

Essene Solar Radiation data for shield calcs and the aforementioned instance, complete with citations

1.) To do the calcs on the shields, I think you might need to know the distance from the Star still (Coronas are 3 dimensional) and you also need to know the dimensions of the ship (to estimate surface area hit by the radiation.)


For the bolter, I have some reservations about this. A 400 kilo person would be thrown back at least several m/s, which implies at least 800-1000+ kg*m/s worth of momentum. (as much if not more momentum than a 20/30 mm gatling gun!) For that to work, bolter rounds would either have to weigh several kilos apiece (unlikely) or the projectile velocity would have to be moving close to or at hypersonic speeds (5x the speed of sound or fater.) And that's assuming a half-kilo round. (assuming something like 100 grams, the velocity could be 8-10 km/s.)

Aside from having a muzzle energy on par with a modern tank gun, I find it highly unlikley that a person could fire this thing unassisted (they'd either have to be a space marine, something close to it, or have some means of anchoring themselves aganst the recoil.) And the thrust stream of any such projectile would be *quite* lethal to the person firing (Aside from being pretty inefficient.)

My actual guess would be that the round went off, and the explosion was violent enough to throw the woman backwards. The thing would probably detonate on impact anyhow.

[Imperial Overlord]

There is a type of sensor in the basic game and in the Inquisitor, the psi detector that works by tracking through warp space (they're rare and expensive). The battle in Sabbat Martyr suggests FTL sensors to detect warp emergences. In other words, the sensor tech is consistent with other pieces of IoM technology.

[defanatic]

My actual guess would be that the round went off, and the explosion was violent enough to throw the woman backwards. The thing would probably detonate on impact anyhow.

Bolter rounds explode just after hitting, and are also propelled by a small rocket system.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Aside from having a muzzle energy on par with a modern tank gun, I find it highly unlikley that a person could fire this thing unassisted (they'd either have to be a space marine, something close to it, or have some means of anchoring themselves aganst the recoil.) And the thrust stream of any such projectile would be *quite* lethal to the person firing (Aside from being pretty inefficient.).

That's arguable since we do have examples of IoM with caseless ammo or that all but lacks recoil (Either all but entirely or to a great degree).

My actual guess would be that the round went off, and the explosion was violent enough to throw the woman backwards. The thing would probably detonate on impact anyhow

I have Eisenhorn in front of me, and I don't recall any mention of the stubber round exploding or creating an explosion upon contact or as a side-effect.
Are you sure that it was in the first chapter and not the second (I can't find the exact example with a cyborg witch that you refer to, for direct confirmation).
Perhaps you mean Lugenbrau from the Recorded fight with Quixos at the very start of chap-1, page 15 (Omnibus edition)? [and the 25 year old woman with the 45cm Force blade?]

[GeneralTacticus]

He means the fight with the Beldame Sadia in the first chapter of Malleus. The precise quote:

I raised my weapon. She flew at me.

Her sheer bulk brought me down.

One spider limb stabbed entirely through the meat of my left thigh. Her steel fangs, like curved needles, snarled into my face. I saw her eyes, for an instant, black and without limit or sanity.

She spat.

I wrenched my head around to avoid the corrosive spew, and fired my bolt pistol up into her.

The impact threw her backwards, all four hundred kiloes of wizened witch and bionic carriage.

No specifics on how far she was thrown, but it was far enough for Eisenhorn to be looking around to see how his allies were doing rather than worrying about her attacking again, and far enough that she ran for it rather than coming back for another go.

[NecronLord]

highly unlikley that a person could fire this thing unassisted (they'd either have to be a space marine, something close to it, or have some means of anchoring themselves aganst the recoil.)

It's possible that bolt velocitiy varies. We know that some boltguns in use by the Inquisition (specificially, the Deathwatch) have gravitic motors in them to allow them to be used. Also, this is Eisenhorn. I'm not sure if he's got his body-frame at this stage (I'd have to check), but in later life, when he's an old man, he has a rig built that allows him to move, that might absorb weapon recoil too.

[GeneralTacticus]

This is at the start of Malleus, so no, he didn't have his augmetic legs. Those didn't come until late in Hereticus when Godwyn Fischig blew his legs off with a bolt pistol.

Unless you're think of the savant Aemos, who did have an augmetic frame to help him move about, but he wasn't firing the weapon in question.

[Imperial Overlord]

Remember the bolt has a rocket motor. Impact velocity at close range will be higher than muzzle velocity.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

I have Eisenhorn in front of me, and I don't recall any mention of the stubber round exploding or creating an explosion upon contact or as a side-effect.
Are you sure that it was in the first chapter and not the second (I can't find the exact example with a cyborg witch that you refer to, for direct confirmation).
Perhaps you mean Lugenbrau from the Recorded fight with Quixos at the very start of chap-1, page 15 (Omnibus edition)? [and the 25 year old woman with the 45cm Force blade?]

...He's talking about a bolter, not a stummber. And everyone knows bolter rounds detonate.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

^Oi, ghetto edit: Stubber, not whatever the hell as "stummber" is.

[Lost Soal]

Bolter Titbit.
False Gods states that a Bolter can have either sub-sonic or supersonic rounds.

[white_rabbit]

Bolter Titbit.
False Gods states that a Bolter can have either sub-sonic or supersonic rounds.

Souldrinkers describes preheresy marines as using "low velocity" rounds, which were obsolete in comparison to the Souldrinkers kit.

Sounds like another tech dispersed during the Crusade era.

Although interestingly enough, I think it was space marine that described some contempory Imperial Fists using their bolters as indirect fire grenade launchers.

Oh, and Faith And Fire describes bolters as mini-fusion warhead/rockets.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Lexicanum has a description of how a Bolter operates here...

The Bolter is a two stage projectile weapon with a self propelled round. The bolt is fired and leaves the barrel in the manner of a conventional bullet, however as it leaves the barrel a small rocket motor is ignited, which carries the warhead forward and imparts a stabilising spin. In a conventional firearm, the projectile begins to lose velocity as soon as it leaves the barrel, the bolt however continues to accelerate throughout its trajectory.

The Bolter has two advantages over a conventional firearm. Firstly, the amount of propellant required for the first stage is relativly small. This means that with the standard calibre of .75, the recoil is negligable when compared to a convential projectile weapon of equivilent calibre. Secondly, recoil is further reduced by the smoothbore design of the Bolter. Because spin is imparted by the rocket engine after the bolt exits the barrel, there is no need for rifling.

.....

The standard ammunition employed by the Space Marines is a mass reactive warhead, which has earned the Bolter its reputation as a terror weapon. A milli-second fuse detonates the warhead after it has penetrated the target. Against soft tissue (read: unarmoured targets) the effect is particularly gruesome, and many enemies of the Emperor quickly capitulate after seeing the results of Bolter fire on their comrades. It is possible that the creation of this projectile was motivated by the ancient first encounters with the xenos Orks, whos massive frames and tendancy to ignore pain render solid projectiles ineffective. This standard bolt is also effective against light armoured vehicles.

This may be able to explain some of it, it mentions that it has relatively little recoil. This also fits with the descriptions of bolters i've seen before. The books give many instances of the very gruesome effects of a bolt round, usually the words 'burst' or 'explode' are used to describe the bodies or parts of the people hit.

It said the sources for this were the 3rd ed Rulebook, and Codex Space Marines 3rd and 4th ed, and 4th ed rulebook.

[Lost Soal]

It is possible that the creation of this projectile was motivated by the ancient first encounters with the xenos Orks, whos massive frames and tendancy to ignore pain render solid projectiles ineffective.

The account in False Gods suggests that the Mass Reactive explosive was a choice of round rather than being standard.

[Azazal]

It is possible that the creation of this projectile was motivated by the ancient first encounters with the xenos Orks, whos massive frames and tendancy to ignore pain render solid projectiles ineffective.

The account in False Gods suggests that the Mass Reactive explosive was a choice of round rather than being standard.

Ahh, but that was before the Horus Heresy and the aftermath. Mass Reactive rounds probably were declared the standard in the Codex by Guilliman.

[Lost Soal]

It is possible that the creation of this projectile was motivated by the ancient first encounters with the xenos Orks, whos massive frames and tendancy to ignore pain render solid projectiles ineffective.

The account in False Gods suggests that the Mass Reactive explosive was a choice of round rather than being standard.

Ahh, but that was before the Horus Heresy and the aftermath. Mass Reactive rounds probably were declared the standard in the Codex by Guilliman.

I did mean "at that time", which was why I quoted the relevent section of your post concerning its possible origins.

[Dark Hellion]

Another thing is that some evidence exists that bolters come in multiple "sizes". The Sister's bolter must be smaller than a Space Marine's given the way that all the art depicts it. Plus, Xenos describes Eisenhorn's Space Marine given bolt pistol as requiring two hands to utilize, where as in many other literatures Imperial Guard officers utilize Bolt Pistols one handed. Of course, we know that multiple patterns of Bolters exist already, so it is easily assumed that the different patterns also will have different amounts of firepower, recoil, round weight, etc. depending on who will be using them, and the mission profile.

[Shroom Man 777]

Duh

Stormbolters and heavy bolters, anyone?

[white_rabbit]

Duh

Stormbolters and heavy bolters, anyone?

Theres also the megabolters used on titans and space fighters, and the "thousand round per second" heavy bolters mounted on Faustus class Interceptors.