Affirmative Action - am I just not getting it?

[Count Dooku]

Is it me, or is affirmative action a step back? As I see it, it's not only racist, but it's also insulting to minorities. Hopefully you'll see my point, and if not, PLEASE tell me I'm wrong, because I really don't want to be right. For simplicity, this discussion will be about affirmative action as it pertains to college admission.

Affirmative action makes it easier for minorities to get into college, which is a good thing; or is it? If your a member of the minority, you don't need to get the same grades as someone else would...isn't that a slap in the face to minorities? Isn't it telling them that they're not as good as the rest of society!? I mean, why lower the standards for someone if they're just as good as everyone else, right? We all know that ethnicity has NOTHING to do with how smart or driven someone is, so why is it that people ARE admitted to colleges based on their ethnicity, and that blacks and latinos don't need the same grades as a white kid? Explain that one to me.

As I see it, it's racist. Like I mentioed above, you are admitting someone to a school BASED ON THEIR RACE! Isn't that one of the big reasons for a bunch of protests in the 60's and 70's? Only, this time, racism has been reversed.

It's worth mentioning that I am NOT a racist, but I am extraordinarily egalitarian. That means that EVERYONE should be equally accountable for what they do. Affirmative action is a step away from egalitarianism, the way I see it. I conceed that it makes an attempt to give poeple the opportunity to better themselves through education where they might otherwise not have had the chance, but why can't those people goto a junior college and get a few college credits under their belt, if they really need something for an application to a University? You only need a 2.0GPA to get into a state school, how much more help can people really want! With a 2.4 GPA (in a junior college), your are gauranteed to get into at least one state school, according to California law.

[CaptJodan]

I've never bought into or believed in affimative action. I do think it's a backward step, and I've talked to many of my black friends who also think it's unfair, though they admit that they're happy to use it to their advantage (and I don't blame them for it. You use every advantage you can get in life).

From what I can remember on a class I took in this, it seems to me to be something of a bandaid for a larger problem in society, and not necessarily the solution to the problem. It starts in the poor neighborhoods and in the poor schools. Statistically speaking, minorities tend to get the short stick when it comes to a quality education starting in Elementary school. My racial prejudice class taught that the majority of minorities in country live in predominately poor neighborhoods without the access to a better edcuation, and that's where it starts.

As time goes on with drugs and crime and the rest of those things that can exist in a low SES enviornment, grades tend not to be the most important thing when it comes to a child when just surviving the day is a challenge.

So Affirmative Action is there to kind of pick up those kids that might otherwise have made something of themselves in this enviornment, but may not have had all the opportunities that their white, higher SES status counterparts would have. (leaving out low SES whites, I guess)

So I think that's the justification to it. There is some logic to the madness. I think the reason it was brought up is that you can't get minorities out of a low SES bracket without education, so solving the overall problem of economics means starting with edcuation. At least this was how it was explained to me.

(This was a diversity class in my university. Taught by a white guy who, by the end of the class, really made everyone who was white feel like shit.)

[Magnetic]

I hear what you're saying, Count Dooku. It's pretty much along the lines of how I think about that topic.

[lance]

I think the idea for affirmative action is whitey fucked over the colored man and now they need a hand up.

[Darth Wong]

Is it me, or is affirmative action a step back? As I see it, it's not only racist, but it's also insulting to minorities. Hopefully you'll see my point, and if not, PLEASE tell me I'm wrong, because I really don't want to be right. For simplicity, this discussion will be about affirmative action as it pertains to college admission.

Affirmative action makes it easier for minorities to get into college, which is a good thing; or is it? If your a member of the minority, you don't need to get the same grades as someone else would...isn't that a slap in the face to minorities? Isn't it telling them that they're not as good as the rest of society!? I mean, why lower the standards for someone if they're just as good as everyone else, right? We all know that ethnicity has NOTHING to do with how smart or driven someone is, so why is it that people ARE admitted to colleges based on their ethnicity, and that blacks and latinos don't need the same grades as a white kid? Explain that one to me.

As I see it, it's racist. Like I mentioed above, you are admitting someone to a school BASED ON THEIR RACE! Isn't that one of the big reasons for a bunch of protests in the 60's and 70's? Only, this time, racism has been reversed.

It's worth mentioning that I am NOT a racist, but I am extraordinarily egalitarian. That means that EVERYONE should be equally accountable for what they do. Affirmative action is a step away from egalitarianism, the way I see it. I conceed that it makes an attempt to give poeple the opportunity to better themselves through education where they might otherwise not have had the chance, but why can't those people goto a junior college and get a few college credits under their belt, if they really need something for an application to a University? You only need a 2.0GPA to get into a state school, how much more help can people really want! With a 2.4 GPA (in a junior college), your are gauranteed to get into at least one state school, according to California law.

Your entire argument is based upon the presumption that racism in hiring and admissions staff has been totally eradicated, so there is no need for a compensating mechanism and the compensating mechanism itself actually unbalances the odds of being fairly selected. I would say that AA is probably a waste of time in any organization where completely objective methods are being used to determine admission ... however many of those organizations actually exist.

[Count Dooku]

Your entire argument is based upon the presumption that racism in hiring and admissions staff has been totally eradicated, so there is no need for a compensating mechanism and the compensating mechanism itself actually unbalances the odds of being fairly selected. I would say that AA is probably a waste of time in any organization where completely objective methods are being used to determine admission ... however many of those organizations actually exist.

A little, perhaps; but to be fair, it's almost un-heard of for someone who is actually qualified for a job, to not get hired. If your qualified for the job, and someone will lesser qualifications gets it instead of you, you can take them to court. It's just about an open and shut case; and for that reason, most employers are un-willing to hire someone based soley on their race. That brings me back to my original point - affirmative action is BASED on race. To get into a state school, a white kid needs a GPA of 2.4, and anyone who has been in college knows that is pathetically easy, but they've lowered the bar for minorities, saying that they can get a 2.0, and still get in! That's insulting to minorities, don't you think!? Isn't it, in a way, saying that minorities aren't as good as the rest of society?

[Darth Wong]

A little, perhaps; but to be fair, it's almost un-heard of for someone who is actually qualified for a job, to not get hired.

That is the biggest, most idiotic pile of steaming bullshit I've ever heard. It is incredibly common for well-qualified applicants to not get the job, even above and beyond this race issue. What the fuck planet do you live on? If you put out a want ad and get 50 applicants, do you really think that only 1 of them will be qualified? They will probably all be qualified, and you will reject 49 of them. And your criteria for doing so can be as subjective as "I just didn't like the vibe I got from him".

[Count Dooku]

I've never bought into or believed in affimative action. I do think it's a backward step, and I've talked to many of my black friends who also think it's unfair, though they admit that they're happy to use it to their advantage (and I don't blame them for it. You use every advantage you can get in life).

From what I can remember on a class I took in this, it seems to me to be something of a bandaid for a larger problem in society, and not necessarily the solution to the problem. It starts in the poor neighborhoods and in the poor schools. Statistically speaking, minorities tend to get the short stick when it comes to a quality education starting in Elementary school. My racial prejudice class taught that the majority of minorities in country live in predominately poor neighborhoods without the access to a better edcuation, and that's where it starts.

As time goes on with drugs and crime and the rest of those things that can exist in a low SES enviornment, grades tend not to be the most important thing when it comes to a child when just surviving the day is a challenge.

So Affirmative Action is there to kind of pick up those kids that might otherwise have made something of themselves in this enviornment, but may not have had all the opportunities that their white, higher SES status counterparts would have. (leaving out low SES whites, I guess)

So I think that's the justification to it. There is some logic to the madness. I think the reason it was brought up is that you can't get minorities out of a low SES bracket without education, so solving the overall problem of economics means starting with edcuation. At least this was how it was explained to me.

(This was a diversity class in my university. Taught by a white guy who, by the end of the class, really made everyone who was white feel like shit.)

It does start at the bottom - your absolutely right. But anyone with a GED can get into community college, and from there, all that's needed for anyone to get into a California State school is a GPA of 2.4, and 2.0 for minorities. How hard is that? For crying out loud man, there are mentally handicapped people that do it. Community college is so easy it brings me to tears!

Darth Wong, if one doesn't have to put their race on a college application, what factor would race then play? In an application to a state school (in California at least) no interview is needed for admission. So, if not given the opportunity to be racist, how then would people be turned away because of their race!? That part of your refute is a bit lacking...

[Yogi]

I did some research for Affirmative Action for a class in college. The main barrier to higher education isn't so much race as it is sociall class. Poor white people have just a hard a time getting into college as poor minorities. Hence, Affirmative Action should exist, but look into helping people of lower income.

While college admissions seem to be racially bias-free, minorities still have a harder time entering the workforce.

Oh BTW, the claims that minorities drop out of colleges in droves is not proof that they'er under-qualified. Actually looking at the data shows that they're dropping out of the poorer schools who don't have good financial aid programs. Minorities that go to the big-name schools like Harvard who have rather good financial aid programs have a dropout rate comparable to whites.

[Darth Wong]

Darth Wong, if one doesn't have to put their race on a college application, what factor would race then play? In an application to a state school (in California at least) no interview is needed for admission. So, if not given the opportunity to be racist, how then would people be turned away because of their race!? That part of your refute is a bit lacking...

Not at all, dipshit, since I already stated up-front that I don't see the need for affirmative action if the admissions process is objective. Learn to read, you stupid asshole. Maybe the steroids are causing your brain to shrivel along with your testicles.

[Count Dooku]

A little, perhaps; but to be fair, it's almost un-heard of for someone who is actually qualified for a job, to not get hired.

That is the biggest, most idiotic pile of steaming bullshit I've ever heard. It is incredibly common for well-qualified applicants to not get the job, even above and beyond this race issue. What the fuck planet do you live on? If you put out a want ad and get 50 applicants, do you really think that only 1 of them will be qualified? They will probably all be qualified, and you will reject 49 of them. And your criteria for doing so can be as subjective as "I just didn't like the vibe I got from him".

You seem to have left out the part where I said that the lesser qualified person would have to have gotten the job over the more qualified one. Would you risk your job by hiring someone based on their race? Perhaps in some rural areas, and personally, I've never seen it happen.

[Darth Wong]

You seem to have left out the part where I said that the lesser qualified person would have to have gotten the job over the more qualified one.

You seem to be too fucking stupid to realize that it's a matter of picking the person you like the most and who meets the minimum qualifications, not the person with the most qualifications. How many jobs have you had?

Would you risk your job by hiring someone based on their race? Perhaps in some rural areas, and personally, I've never seen it happen.

No one's ever going to admit they're doing it, dipshit. Hell, some people might not even realize they're doing it. People hire based on gut instinct and a lot of other factors not on paper, because they're evaluating how somebody will fit into the team. It's not a matter of paper qualifications as long as you're not below the minimum.

[Count Dooku]

Darth Wong, if one doesn't have to put their race on a college application, what factor would race then play? In an application to a state school (in California at least) no interview is needed for admission. So, if not given the opportunity to be racist, how then would people be turned away because of their race!? That part of your refute is a bit lacking...

Not at all, dipshit, since I already stated up-front that I don't see the need for affirmative action if the admissions process is objective. Learn to read, you stupid asshole. Maybe the steroids are causing your brain to shrivel along with your testicles.

If calling me names makes you feel like a big boy, go ahead and do it. If I mis-read part of what you said, than I'm sorry. Feel better now? I was thinking more about what CaptJodan said at the time. I never said I was on steroids, now did I? No, and I'm not.

[Darth Wong]

If calling me names makes you feel like a big boy, go ahead and do it. If I mis-read part of what you said, than I'm sorry.

You didn't "misread" it; you obviously didn't read it at all. You're clearly one of those imbeciles who thinks you can skim responses rather than looking at exactly what they're saying.

Feel better now? I was thinking more about what CaptJodan said at the time.

Then you shouldn't have misrepresented my argument, moron.

I never said I was on steroids, now did I? No, and I'm not.

Oh no, you just said that steroids were "very important to me"

[Joe]

If you're white and male in this country, you essentially live affirmative action. Conceptually, the purpose of affirmative action is not to give minority groups a leg-up over white males, but to allow them to compete with white males on the same playing field.

I do concede the policy has quite often been a failure in practice, however.

[Count Dooku]

If calling me names makes you feel like a big boy, go ahead and do it. If I mis-read part of what you said, than I'm sorry.

You didn't "misread" it; you obviously didn't read it at all. You're clearly one of those imbeciles who thinks you can skim responses rather than looking at exactly what they're saying.

Feel better now? I was thinking more about what CaptJodan said at the time.

Then you shouldn't have misrepresented my argument, moron.

I never said I was on steroids, now did I? No, and I'm not.

Oh no, you just said that steroids were "very important to me"

Oh no, Darth Wong is insulting me! I'll never be able to smile again! Since you know what I'm thinking and doing, "You didn't "misread" it; you obviously didn't read it at all", you must be inside my head, no? I'm amazed by your super natural telepathic abilities. You MUST teach me this, if it can be taught.

Yeah, steroids is an important issue to me. I feel they are misrepresented in the media, and take valuable attention from other, far more serious problems. What's wrong with that!? I NEVER said that I was a user.

[Darth Wong]

Oh no, Darth Wong is insulting me! I'll never be able to smile again! Since you know what I'm thinking and doing, "You didn't "misread" it; you obviously didn't read it at all", you must be inside my head, no? I'm amazed by your super natural telepathic abilities. You MUST teach me this, if it can be taught.

It can be observed from your complete failure to recognize a whole point being made, moron. Either that or you're a fucking liar. When you misrepresent someone's argument around here you get in trouble for it; deal with it, fucktard; it's a rule violation and you should be more apologetic when you do it. And I notice that you're not even addressing any of the points I made, preferring to focus instead on my use of insults; another rule violation. Are you asking to get banned?

Yeah, steroids is an important issue to me. I feel they are misrepresented in the media, and take valuable attention from other, far more serious problems. What's wrong with that!? I NEVER said that I was a user.

Yeah sure, someone who flies off the handle at the mention of steroids and who admits that he has a special interest in the subject has never used them. Of course I believe you, just like I believe every other person who says he's never used steroids but nevertheless developed a particular interest in the subject.

[Joe]

Also, Dooku, you seem to be misunderstanding the way affirmative action works. Though there are several highly publicized exceptions, most notably the University of Michigan's race-based admission policy, affirmative action generally does not encourage the elevation of unqualified individuals on the basis of their race. Affirmative action simply mandates that, when faced with two equally qualified applicants, the minority applicant will be given preference over the white applicant with the assumption that the minority applicant has faced more challenges getting to where he is because of his race than the white applicant has.

[Count Dooku]

Oh no, Darth Wong is insulting me! I'll never be able to smile again! Since you know what I'm thinking and doing, "You didn't "misread" it; you obviously didn't read it at all", you must be inside my head, no? I'm amazed by your super natural telepathic abilities. You MUST teach me this, if it can be taught.

It can be observed from your complete failure to recognize a whole point being made, moron. Either that or you're a fucking liar. When you misrepresent someone's argument around here you get in trouble for it; deal with it, fucktard; it's a rule violation and you should be more apologetic when you do it. And I notice that you're not even addressing any of the points I made, preferring to focus instead on my use of insults; another rule violation. Are you asking to get banned?

Yeah, steroids is an important issue to me. I feel they are misrepresented in the media, and take valuable attention from other, far more serious problems. What's wrong with that!? I NEVER said that I was a user.

Yeah sure, someone who flies off the handle at the mention of steroids and who admits that he has a special interest in the subject has never used them. Of course I believe you, just like I believe every other person who says he's never used steroids but nevertheless developed a particular interest in the subject.

Why this vicious attack on me!? I do understand that you are upset, but I think your going a little over the top. I do not selectively read things, and I did indeed misread what you wrote. I already said sorry for it. I am also curious as to why you get to inslut me, and I don't get to do it in return.

[Darth Wong]

Why this vicious attack on me!? I do understand that you are upset, but I think your going a little over the top. I do not selectively read things, and I did indeed misread what you wrote. I already said sorry for it.

Saying "I'm sorry" while simultaneously whining that you're being mistreated is not what I'm talking about, asshole. I do not and have never had much tolerance for backhanded pseudo-apologies.

I am also curious as to why you get to inslut me, and I don't get to do it in return.

I don't give a shit whether you insult me, I give a shit whether you are answering fucking points in a logical fashion rather than focusing exclusively on the behaviour of your opponent: something which is against our rules and which you have just done again despite an explicit fucking warning. What do I have to do, tattoo the rules on your fucking head?

I know from the previous thread about steroids that you can't debate worth shit, but I expect you to either try or concede, fucktard. ANSWER THE FUCKING POINTS RIGHT FUCKING NOW and stop with this "you're being so mean to me so I don't have to talk about the thread topic" bullshit.

[Count Dooku]

Also, Dooku, you seem to be misunderstanding the way affirmative action works. Though there are several highly publicized exceptions, most notably the University of Michigan's race-based admission policy, affirmative action generally does not encourage the elevation of unqualified individuals on the basis of their race. Affirmative action simply mandates that, when faced with two equally qualified applicants, the minority applicant will be given preference over the white applicant with the assumption that the minority applicant has faced more challenges getting to where he is because of his race than the white applicant has.

That is, still, racist. I was raised in a piss poor family that was extremely prone to violence. What do I get out of it? Assuming that someone has faced more challenges because of their race is insulting, don't you think? It's saying, 'no matter how hard you try, we don't think you can meet our standards, so we'll just make it easy for you'. How stupid does someone have to be to not get a GPA of 2.4 in community college? Do we really want people like that to get, essentially, a pass to college? I know I don't.

If someone wants to be educated, they're going to make it happen. It doesn't matter what background they come from.

I know from the previous thread about steroids that you can't debate worth shit, but I expect you to either try or concede, fucktard. ANSWER THE FUCKING POINTS RIGHT FUCKING NOW and stop with this "you're being so mean to me so I don't have to talk about the thread topic" bullshit.

Again, with the personal attacks, "I know from the previous thread about steroids that you can't debate worth shit". I'll say it one more time - I MISREAD WHAT YOU WROTE. If that's a problem for you, I'll do my best to fix it in the future.

[Darth Wong]

That is, still, racist. I was raised in a piss poor family that was extremely prone to violence. What do I get out of it? Assuming that someone has faced more challenges because of their race is insulting, don't you think?

It's also true, moron. There are plenty of people in this world who will judge you based on the colour of your skin. Burying your head in the sand and pretending that this is untrue will not make it untrue.

It's saying, 'no matter how hard you try, we don't think you can meet our standards, so we'll just make it easy for you'. How stupid does someone have to be to not get a GPA of 2.4 in community college? Do we really want people like that to get, essentially, a pass to college? I know I don't.

It seems you're not content to misrepresent my arguments; you are now misrepresenting Joe's arguments too.

If someone wants to be educated, they're going to make it happen. It doesn't matter what background they come from.

And can you also make someone hire you? That's quite a talent.

Again, with the personal attacks, "I know from the previous thread about steroids that you can't debate worth shit". I'll say it one more time - I MISREAD WHAT YOU WROTE. If that's a problem for you, I'll do my best to fix it in the future.

You are seriously starting to try my patience, asshole. I have made numerous points in this thread which you have never bothered answering, particularly with regards to job hiring practices. I have warned you twice now that ignoring points you have no answer for is against the rules. You continue to ignore those warnings in favour of whining that I'm being mean to you while still refusing to answer those unanswered points. This is your third fucking warning; either answer those points or concede them. There will not be a fourth warning.

[Count Dooku]

particularly with regards to job hiring practices. I have warned you twice now that ignoring points you have no answer for is against the rules.

There is a reason I did not answer that question, and to be frank, you must have 'misread' my original post. I'll have to quote myself on this one:

Is it me, or is affirmative action a step back? As I see it, it's not only racist, but it's also insulting to minorities. Hopefully you'll see my point, and if not, PLEASE tell me I'm wrong, because I really don't want to be right. For simplicity, this discussion will be about affirmative action as it pertains to college admission.

I conceed the entire argument. All is lost then, I guess - just because you misread my ORIGINAL post. You'll notice it hasn't been edited. I may have ignored your other points, but at the time, I hadn't come up with anything to refute them yet.

[Joe]

Assuming that someone has faced more challenges because of their race is insulting, don't you think?

Not when it's more than likely true. This country was largely built for white males, and to an extent it still is (it's certainly controlled by them).

It's saying, 'no matter how hard you try, we don't think you can meet our standards, so we'll just make it easy for you'.

Did you even read what I posted? That is not how the majority of affirmative action programs work; they simply give preferential treatment to minority students/hirees amongst equally qualified candidates. There are several exceptions which do lower standards for race-based admission, but they should not be the instances by which the policy as a whole should be judged.

If someone wants to be educated, they're going to make it happen. It doesn't matter what background they come from.

That doesn't really address the fact that societal hurdles and lingering racism can make it a lot more difficult for them to do so. There are extraordinary people of any race who can overcome whatever shit gets shoveled on their plate, but the majority of people are not extraordinary, and it's not fair to expect them to be that way.

[Darth Lucifer]

...it's almost un-heard of for someone who is actually qualified for a job, to not get hired. If your qualified for the job, and someone will lesser qualifications gets it instead of you, you can take them to court. It's just about an open and shut case...

I don't know how many times that has happened to me!! Shit, if it's so open and shut, then go to law school and start up a new practice! I'll be your first client!!