Police seize klingon weaponry in raid

[LordShaithis]

And if you snapped your fingers and put a gun in every single person's hands in the world?

Sheer chaos, of course. There are plenty of unbalanced people who shouldn't own a gun, and you certainly don't want everyone walking around like it's the wild west.

Seriously. You're a moron in a bar, in a society where everyone thinks that casually carrying weapons on them at all times is a good idea,

Yeah, but what society is that? I can throw out smartass remarks about locking everyone in isolation chambers, and you can point out the obvious stupidity of such a scenario, then counter with a remark about arming everyone to the teeth, but really we both know we're still talking about the everyday world as it exists.

and you've had a few, and some other guy has had a few, you insult his girlfriend, and he looks like he's going to tattoo your face with his fist. Does this escalate into a potentially lethal situation?

Yeah, I thought about a scenario like this after my last post. Gang fights, muggings, and plain old premeditated murder all involve enough advance planning that the difference between a knife and (insert improvised weapon here) is probably negligible.

But I'll conceed that getting rid of knives would reduce the overall average lethality of bar fights and other "flying off the handle" situations. The X percent represented by stabbings involving illegal knives would be replaced with things less dangerous like fistfights, guys being clubbed with beer bottles, or stabbings with smaller legal knives.

Still, this seems a rather wasteful and intrusive effort to undertake, once you set aside all the crime that it probably won't really impact.

To be honest, I don't have much urge to outlaw knives, but the arguments you're using to ridicule the idea rely exclusively upon assumption of a particular scenario to the exclusion of all others, and massive exaggeration. It's not hard to play that game.

Eh, I'll take a demerit for excessive attitude and insufficient debate and not cry about it. This just strikes me as much more of a "We need to look like we're doing something!" move on the part of the authorities than any genuine attempt to reduce crime.

[Darth Wong]

Seriously. You're a moron in a bar, in a society where everyone thinks that casually carrying weapons on them at all times is a good idea,

Yeah, but what society is that?

I wouldn't know. I've never been to Texas. Or Somalia.

I can throw out smartass remarks about locking everyone in isolation chambers, and you can point out the obvious stupidity of such a scenario, then counter with a remark about arming everyone to the teeth, but really we both know we're still talking about the everyday world as it exists.

and you've had a few, and some other guy has had a few, you insult his girlfriend, and he looks like he's going to tattoo your face with his fist. Does this escalate into a potentially lethal situation?

Yeah, I thought about a scenario like this after my last post. Gang fights, muggings, and plain old premeditated murder all involve enough advance planning that the difference between a knife and (insert improvised weapon here) is probably negligible.

But I'll conceed that getting rid of knives would reduce the overall average lethality of bar fights and other "flying off the handle" situations. The X percent represented by stabbings involving illegal knives would be replaced with things less dangerous like fistfights, guys being clubbed with beer bottles, or stabbings with smaller legal knives.

Still, this seems a rather wasteful and intrusive effort to undertake, once you set aside all the crime that it probably won't really impact.

I would tend to agree that the actual impact on crime rates is probably not going to be worth the effort. But to be perfectly rational about it, police could save far more lives with stricter traffic laws and driver licensing than exercises like this. One of the things people don't seem to realize is that getting killed by a drunk or idiot driver is a larger and more realistic threat to their safety than getting killed by a criminal psychopath. And police efforts at curbing drunk driving and aggressive driving pale in comparison to their efforts at solving murder cases and nabbing violent criminals. Hell, even most traffic cops just sit there and wait for speeders; hardly the kind of proactive enforcement that we need. But society is collectively far more afraid of a murderer than a drunk driver, even though both will leave you equally dead.

[st. mark]

If you carry a gun or a knife in certain countries you become a criminal. In other words law-abiding people do not carry weapons by definition. I think that is great as the police may arrest pretty much anyone who carry a knife, a gun, a baseball bat or a bomb.

I can think of a million common items which are just as suitable for gang-fights or bushwhacking passersby in a dark corner of the park.

That proves that you are way smarter then most knife-stabbers, and that you hardly need a long shining blade to compensate low self-esteem. Making knives illegal really is a disguised test of brains - and those who pass don't carry one.

[Broomstick]

So what do you do if you're attacked by someone?

Get mugged if you're not a fast runner apperently.

So if I carry a knife or even a gun what good will that do me? The mugger will likely have their weapon drawn making any attempt of mine to fight foolish, my best bet is to run failing that give em my wallet and then run, I’m not gonna risk my life just for £20 and a few cards.

My husband is physically unable to run. What is he supposed to do? Hand over his wallet, then get beaten unconcious?

Oh, wait - that's right, last time someone pulled a knife on him he shot the guy with a crossbow. I suppose crossbows are illegal in Britain, too, though?

I've actually been in a couple of knife fights. Most people don't know how to handle one as a weapon. In both cases I disarmed my attacker and beat the living shit out of them with bare hands, despite being a cute little girl-thing. I'd prefer to live the whole rest of my life never needing to do that again, but a knife isn't the same as a gun. Knife defense is nowhere near as impossible as trying to catch bullets mid-air. Yes, best to run away when you can, always best to avoid trouble, but if you can't run it's not necessarially hopeless.

[Stuart Mackey]

So what do you do if you're attacked by someone?

Get mugged if you're not a fast runner apperently.

So if I carry a knife or even a gun what good will that do me? The mugger will likely have their weapon drawn making any attempt of mine to fight foolish, my best bet is to run failing that give em my wallet and then run, I’m not gonna risk my life just for £20 and a few cards.

You are correct in the sense that one should never risk ones life for some thing as stupid as money, on the other hand if someone is going to mug you, its likely he will be close enough to prevent you from runing away when he pulls his knife and may just stab you in the back.
If I were you, I should learn how to fight properly, I understand there are a few very good selfdefence schools in the UK.

What really makes me laugh about Brit gun, and now knife, laws is that people actually think that these laws will ever be obeyed by crims.

[Broomstick]

There is something far more dangerous in the UK. Its called the automobile. You can save 5,000 lives a year by making cars illegal and requiring people to ride mass transit. Sure its going to be a minor inconvience, but think of saving 5,000 lives.

Do you really not understand the rather major point that cars are essential for the functioning of British society whereas the liberty to carrying knives serves no useful purpose whatsoever?

You mean Britain didn't have a functioning society prior to the automobile?



Wow.

And here we Yanks have been thinking ya'll have always been so civilized....

[Lord Revan]

To be honest I've never been in situation where I needed to carry a knife for any extended periods (and same goes for guns of any type(this is including the 11 months I was in service with the Finnish Defence Force)) and quite frankly I'm probably more leathal without one and even then the person most likely to get hurt/killed in a fight is yours truly.

[Darth Tanner]

People who carry knives for defence should realise that more people die from their own knives, used against them in a struggle, than actually die from the other person’s knife.

recovered by shocked cops in a house raid.

These things are on sale legally, how can they confiscate it from someone’s home?

[Zac Naloen]

My husband is physically unable to run. What is he supposed to do? Hand over his wallet, then get beaten unconcious?

Erm, your kind over reaching here, 99.9999% of the time all they want is your money. People get hurt when they RESIST.

Sorry, but for £20 a phone that can be cancelled and replaced in about 2 days. plus my cards which are essentially worthless its not worth the risk.

I'd sooner hand over the cash than risk injury.

You mean Britain didn't have a functioning society prior to the automobile?

Shocked

Wow.

And here we Yanks have been thinking ya'll have always been so civilized....

Yeh before then we had horses, which got replaced with cars. So.. whats your point?

[weemadando]

Oh, wait - that's right, last time someone pulled a knife on him he shot the guy with a crossbow. I suppose crossbows are illegal in Britain, too, though?

IIRC not if they are being fired from Hereford Cathedral at Welshmen, or is that longbows?

[Rye]

It's better to just have a few notes on you in case you get mugged, if you just hand over some cash, they're less likely to fuck you up, if you hand over nothing or try and fight, you're far more likely to get fucked up.

My male parental figure was telling me how when he worked in Jamaica like 30 years ago, in the poor areas, people would leave a plate in the hallway with a load of money on, because it was of less value than the possessions of the home, and any thieves that broke in would take the money and just go, rather than escalating it into a bloodbath.

There are hotels that give out fake rolexes to people and keep the real rolexes in the safe, too.

[Col. Crackpot]

There is something far more dangerous in the UK. Its called the automobile. You can save 5,000 lives a year by making cars illegal and requiring people to ride mass transit. Sure its going to be a minor inconvience, but think of saving 5,000 lives.

Do you really not understand the rather major point that cars are essential for the functioning of British society whereas the liberty to carrying knives serves no useful purpose whatsoever?

Not true for 'urban living'. Cars are a luxury in the city. As you so matter of factly pointed out to Alyska, things are different in urban environments.

[Col. Crackpot]

My male parental figure was telling me how when he worked in Jamaica like 30 years ago, in the poor areas, people would leave a plate in the hallway with a load of money on, because it was of less value than the possessions of the home, and any thieves that broke in would take the money and just go, rather than escalating it into a bloodbath.

so by that logic, if a woman is nice and just fucks the rapist, she won't get raped.

[Molyneux]

People who carry knives for defence should realise that more people die from their own knives, used against them in a struggle, than actually die from the other person’s knife.

I smell bullshit. Care to back up that statement?

[consequences]

My husband is physically unable to run. What is he supposed to do? Hand over his wallet, then get beaten unconcious?

Erm, your kind over reaching here, 99.9999% of the time all they want is your money. People get hurt when they RESIST.

Sorry, but for £20 a phone that can be cancelled and replaced in about 2 days. plus my cards which are essentially worthless its not worth the risk.

I'd sooner hand over the cash than risk injury.

You can try telling this to my mother, who got her wrist sprained and dragged more than a bit by a purse snatcher in England. Not because she tried to resist, but because she habitually wraps the trap of a bag around her arm, and the guy attempted a running snatch.

[Darth Wong]

Get mugged if you're not a fast runner apperently.

So if I carry a knife or even a gun what good will that do me? The mugger will likely have their weapon drawn making any attempt of mine to fight foolish, my best bet is to run failing that give em my wallet and then run, I’m not gonna risk my life just for £20 and a few cards.

My husband is physically unable to run. What is he supposed to do? Hand over his wallet, then get beaten unconcious?

Oh, wait - that's right, last time someone pulled a knife on him he shot the guy with a crossbow. I suppose crossbows are illegal in Britain, too, though?

I've actually been in a couple of knife fights. Most people don't know how to handle one as a weapon. In both cases I disarmed my attacker and beat the living shit out of them with bare hands, despite being a cute little girl-thing. I'd prefer to live the whole rest of my life never needing to do that again, but a knife isn't the same as a gun. Knife defense is nowhere near as impossible as trying to catch bullets mid-air. Yes, best to run away when you can, always best to avoid trouble, but if you can't run it's not necessarially hopeless.

Yeah, you're right, it's utterly ridiculous to think that anybody could ever cause any real trouble or threaten anybody with a knife.

[Molyneux]

So if I carry a knife or even a gun what good will that do me? The mugger will likely have their weapon drawn making any attempt of mine to fight foolish, my best bet is to run failing that give em my wallet and then run, I’m not gonna risk my life just for £20 and a few cards.

My husband is physically unable to run. What is he supposed to do? Hand over his wallet, then get beaten unconcious?

Oh, wait - that's right, last time someone pulled a knife on him he shot the guy with a crossbow. I suppose crossbows are illegal in Britain, too, though?

I've actually been in a couple of knife fights. Most people don't know how to handle one as a weapon. In both cases I disarmed my attacker and beat the living shit out of them with bare hands, despite being a cute little girl-thing. I'd prefer to live the whole rest of my life never needing to do that again, but a knife isn't the same as a gun. Knife defense is nowhere near as impossible as trying to catch bullets mid-air. Yes, best to run away when you can, always best to avoid trouble, but if you can't run it's not necessarially hopeless.

Yeah, you're right, it's utterly ridiculous to think that anybody could ever cause any real trouble or threaten anybody with a knife.
*snip 9/11 pic*

Y'know, funny thing about that...my brother's doing a school project on political cartoons, and he ran across one featuring the terrorists armed with boxcutters, and an entire plane filled with 9mms. and up. It did not look cheerful for the terrorists.

The dangers of discharging a handgun on a plane aside, it appears to me that if more Americans were more inclined towards self-defense, the other flights might have turned out more like the one in Pennsylvania, at the very least.

[Z-Ha-Dum]

It's better to just have a few notes on you in case you get mugged, if you just hand over some cash, they're less likely to fuck you up, if you hand over nothing or try and fight, you're far more likely to get fucked up.

Indeed. In many instances, in Manila at least, muggers tend to organize themselves into gangs; and chances are, when a mugger shows up in front of you wielding a knife and asking for your cash, you can be sure he has his back-up right behind you just in case you resist. This happened to a friend of mine when a mugger grabbed her necklace. When she pursued the thief she noticed there were three or four guys also running behind her. When she decided to give up the chase, they all went away.

[Ubiquitous]

Get mugged if you're not a fast runner apperently.

So if I carry a knife or even a gun what good will that do me? The mugger will likely have their weapon drawn making any attempt of mine to fight foolish, my best bet is to run failing that give em my wallet and then run, I’m not gonna risk my life just for £20 and a few cards.

My husband is physically unable to run. What is he supposed to do? Hand over his wallet, then get beaten unconcious?

Oh, wait - that's right, last time someone pulled a knife on him he shot the guy with a crossbow. I suppose crossbows are illegal in Britain, too, though?

I've actually been in a couple of knife fights. Most people don't know how to handle one as a weapon. In both cases I disarmed my attacker and beat the living shit out of them with bare hands, despite being a cute little girl-thing. I'd prefer to live the whole rest of my life never needing to do that again, but a knife isn't the same as a gun. Knife defense is nowhere near as impossible as trying to catch bullets mid-air. Yes, best to run away when you can, always best to avoid trouble, but if you can't run it's not necessarially hopeless.

What the fuck? Where on earth do you live - 16th century France or something? Your husband pulled a crossbow on someone who pulled a knife on him?!

If this is true, remind me never to cross you guys...

[Edi]

What the fuck? Where on earth do you live - 16th century France or something? Your husband pulled a crossbow on someone who pulled a knife on him?!

She's said that they used a crossbow on a home invader once, so I'm not exactly surprised. They don't have a gun, iirc.

If this is true, remind me never to cross you guys...

You hadn't figured that out from the things she's already said here before? Slow learner. Broomstick never struck me as someone who held back and she tends to have a very utilitarian attitude: If it's at hand and works, use it. The other person can go fuck himself, his wellbeing is not a consideration. Whether it's a verbal argument and psychological health, or a physical confrontation and his physical health.

Edi

[Star-Blighter]

Yeah, you're right, it's utterly ridiculous to think that anybody could ever cause any real trouble or threaten anybody with a knife.

Wow. I guess that makes sense since we're all just Al Qaida infiltrators waiting for the start of another Jihad.

Oh wait...

If you lived in East Palo Alto you'd change your tune real quick, or get shanked by a crackhead. I won't even justify my reasons for carrying concealed weapons there, they clearly will not be heard in the midst of this "sharp pointy stuff is wrong!!!" rhetoric. Not everyone lives in Canada. People are rather violent by nature. Take aways guns, they use knives. Take away knives, they use blunt objects. Take away blunt objects (not really possible, but meh...) and people will use every method available to maim and kill for whatever reason they feel the need to do so. Why? Because authority cannot be everywhere at once, and where authority and law enforcement is absent, violent crimes will be commited if the perpetrators think the risk is worth it. And every step down this road of child-proofing the streets will get progressively bloodier and more messy, because the risk is being reduced.

Weapons carried by citizenry are primarily for a show of force, they present a tangible threat and risk to those who are skilled at evading the often inadequate law enforcement measures taken where I live. Argueing against this is no different then argueing against padlocks and deadbolts. Neither will stop a determined criminal from commiting a crime, but they both sure as hell reduce the incentive, especially when a citizen is under no obligation to use anything less than lethal force when acosted by an armed thug.

Just my point of view, and it disgusts me that I have to actually defend carrying weapons in this day and age.

[Darth Tanner]

People who carry knives for defence should realise that more people die from their own knives, used against them in a struggle, than actually die from the other person’s knife.

I smell bullshit. Care to back up that statement?

I dont have any statistics for it no sorry, I heard it on my local news station a couple of days ago from a Police officer talking aobut the new knife amnesty so I assumed he wasnt talking out of his backside (probably a mistake with UK police)

For a recent example however;

Stabbed with own blade

[Edi]

Star-Blighter, are you wiling to try make that a generalization across the board for all Western societies and places? Because if you happen to live in a shithole where packing heat is the only way to keep yourself from being murdered, it doesn't mean that the rest of us are in similar straits and that we should necessarily have to carry weapons.

The problem in your area is clearly lack of law enforcement instead of being the general status quo everywhere.

Edi

[SirNitram]

Oh, wait - that's right, last time someone pulled a knife on him he shot the guy with a crossbow. I suppose crossbows are illegal in Britain, too, though?

I'm actually fairly sure crossbows are legal, and there remains a law on the books that requires one hour of practice with the longbow.

In similarly messed up ways, I beleive swords up to the claymore are legal, providing your not concealing them.

[Star-Blighter]

Star-Blighter, are you wiling to try make that a generalization across the board for all Western societies and places? Because if you happen to live in a shithole where packing heat is the only way to keep yourself from being murdered, it doesn't mean that the rest of us are in similar straits and that we should necessarily have to carry weapons.

The problem in your area is clearly lack of law enforcement instead of being the general status quo everywhere.

Edi

No, I am not generalising. I agree that this should not be the way people should live and I hate carrying weapons, its bloody inconvienent! I don't consider concealed weapons to be anything but a neccessity that depends heavily on where you live. I happen to live in what was once one of the murder capitals of the nation for a time so obviously my case is unique compared to the rest of the world, and you can understand my unwillingness to give up my steel I'm sure.

I only believe that criminal deterents are universally required, and that only the most extreme locations require weaponry as that deterent. EPA has gotten better since the 80s and 90s, but taking a stroll down University Ave. is still taking your life in your hands. I simply don't like being thought of as a "cowboy from TEXAS" just because my area requires me to carry protection. Most of us don't want to have to carry blades and guns just to avoid being stabbed or shot on the street.

And even then my friends get killed, and my friends are rather dangerous and violent individuals when it comes to any threat to friend and family.